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Lyngdorf discussion

larkone

Distinguished Member
Surely all these DACs going back and forth can be measured, quantified and their values correlate with what's actually audible to humans?
Not a hope - they use different laws of physics that cannot be measured on equipment made by humans.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Not a hope - they use different laws of physics that cannot be measured on equipment made by humans.
Ahh right... 'alternative physics' fair enough. I would understand using a DAC in a headphone setup with a not great source - but what source on the market these days or in the last few years is absolute hot garbage? Isn't audible jitter, mega distortion and ultra hissy noise floor pretty much extinct?

I don't claim the Lyngdorf to have the best DAC in the world, but putting one before the 3400 for example.. isn't it just going to be re-jiggered by the 3400 to it's standard anyway?

I will ask the Lyngdorf guys this in 3 weeks time if anyone is interested on their take.
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
Ahh right... 'alternative physics' fair enough. I would understand using a DAC in a headphone setup with a not great source - but what source on the market these days or in the last few years is absolute hot garbage? Isn't audible jitter, mega distortion and ultra hissy noise floor pretty much extinct?

I don't claim the Lyngdorf to have the best DAC in the world, but putting one before the 3400 for example.. isn't it just going to be re-jiggered by the 3400 to it's standard anyway?

I will ask the Lyngdorf guys this in 3 weeks time if anyone is interested on their take.
Totally agree with you regarding modern technology but the purveyors of these 'high-end' DACs always fallback on the FUD factor - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - you might just be experiencing one or all of these issues so you will need their DAC to make sure you haven't got those issues even though the improvement is so esoteric it cannot be measured on human measuring equipment - Emperor's new clothes

I was so pleased with my purchase of a TDAI because it simplified and significantly improved my setup with RoomPerfect and allowed me to hop off of the upgrade merry-go-round, worrying if my DAC, or any other bit of kit, could be improved ever so slightly in the non-audible ranges:facepalm:
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Totally agree with you regarding modern technology but the purveyors of these 'high-end' DACs always fallback on the FUD factor - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - you might just be experiencing one or all of these issues so you will need their DAC to make sure you haven't got those issues even though the improvement is so esoteric it cannot be measured on human measuring equipment - Emperor's new clothes

I was so pleased with my purchase of a TDAI because it simplified and significantly improved my setup with RoomPerfect and allowed me to hop off of the upgrade merry-go-round, worrying if my DAC, or any other bit of kit, could be improved ever so slightly in the non-audible ranges:facepalm:
It is easy to measure differences between competing DACs and amps even if most of the differences should be inaudible. Just visit ASR...
But yes, I agree, FUD is a pretty powerful thing but I think it affects wider than the Emperor's new clothes. I am certainly a victim, even if I trust my ears (to some extent) and think I have some understanding of the value and limits of measurements...
What will you do when they announce the super sexy and "best ever and vastly improved TDAI-4400"? It will measure significantly better, much better SINAD, this is undeniable, but so what - the improvements *should* be beyond audible thresholds. And here comes Mr. FUD stirring the pot: Can I still hear that improvement? I do think it sounds better... but I shouldn't be able to... so am I just imagining this?? but it looks so stunning! Ah....let's forget about that and find a simpler and rational reason... YES ok, the remote is much improved! And it does support 4 subwoofers now! That's so convenient! I'll take one! :cool:
 

sanderweb

Active Member
It is easy to measure differences between competing DACs and amps even if most of the differences should be inaudible. Just visit ASR...
But yes, I agree, FUD is a pretty powerful thing but I think it affects wider than the Emperor's new clothes. I am certainly a victim, even if I trust my ears (to some extent) and think I have some understanding of the value and limits of measurements...
What will you do when they announce the super sexy and "best ever and vastly improved TDAI-4400"? It will measure significantly better, much better SINAD, this is undeniable, but so what - the improvements *should* be beyond audible thresholds. And here comes Mr. FUD stirring the pot: Can I still hear that improvement? I do think it sounds better... but I shouldn't be able to... so am I just imagining this?? but it looks so stunning! Ah....let's forget about that and find a simpler and rational reason... YES ok, the remote is much improved! And it does support 4 subwoofers now! That's so convenient! I'll take one! :cool:
It is a pity Erik that the MP-50 doesn't have analogue inputs. Otherwise I would be very interested in your subjective judgment on: digital source > Bartok > MP-50 vs. digital source > MP-50
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
@arisholm The 3400 has come out since I bought my 2170 - didn't feel the need to upgrade. I have my system where I want it and do not have the room to add more subs over the one I have, nor feel the need to change my recently refurbed Rega RS7s. The whole system is nicely balanced and is heavily used daily as it provides all AV duties for the main TV as well. There is LoFi and HiFi and somewhere in the middle SatisFi - it is a pleasant place to be.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
It is a pity Erik that the MP-50 doesn't have analogue inputs. Otherwise I would be very interested in your subjective judgment on: digital source > Bartok > MP-50 vs. digital source > MP-50
So would I :)
I did however try to up/down-sample everything to 96kHz on the USB-input, which is the internal processing frequency, to test whether the reportedly 2x improved jitter performance at 96kHz (a test by Paul Miller in Hifi News) would make an audible difference. That would be an attempt to bypass the internal ASRC in the MP-50. Tried to A/B this quite a few times. On 44.1kHz material. First I thought I heard a big difference, then none, and in the end I thought it was marginal but certainly not worse... So the FUD in me kept the upsampling filters just in case ;-)
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
I think a lot of people believe they have superhuman hearing because the back of their cable box said they would with their product.

My MP60 is the first unit I've owned that has a very notable difference with RP on and in bypass (I don't try it on the MP50) add the voicing tool in there and I'm pretty sure it eclipses by far any magic woo woo product wearing fearful emperors clothes.

By all means buy the magic whatever if you think it's cool.
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
There is LoFi and HiFi and somewhere in the middle SatisFi - it is a pleasant place to be.
I will remember that one :) Now we are OT as usual but for me the "journey" towards better and different is actually a lot of fun too, so I am probably a hopeless case ;-)

PS: right now I am quite fascinated by the differences in sound in the movie-room vs living room. This has mostly to do with speakers and room of course and it is very easy to hear the differences, both the strengths and weaknesses, which is fun and also quite useful/educational... Not so easy with sources or amps...
 
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larkone

Distinguished Member
for me the "journey" towards better and different is actually a lot of fun too, or amps...
I just found I was listening to the system and not the music and that needed to stop as it seemed to be a never ending search for very slight (perceived) improvements that I needed to keep convincing myself were actually there. It ended up being kinder to my wallet so I could now waste my money on different excesses - good wines:thumbsup: - whilst listening to the music
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
3.6.6 firmware out for the MP60 now.

New Dacs
Extra fuses
Ai Russ Andrews Virtual Assistant support
 

Rkosak

Active Member
Any info about BW-3 availability and TDAI 3400 software update?
I am considering adding BW-3 into my setup, seems to be ideal in my small room. Anyway, I suppose, I have to wait for TDAI 3400 software update for BW-3 subwoofer integration at least.
 

orange55

Well-known Member

Discopants

Active Member
I’ve just caught up on this thread from Christmas onwards.

I also now run an Etheregen network switch in my system. fantastic piece of kit for the money , delivered significant SQ improvements, much more detail and much more musical, 3D soundstage. I run ethernet through power line from my router to the music system and I think this may be a factor in how much of an uptick in quality I received.

@sanderweb I’m running my switch backwards feeding the B side from the wall and the A side feeds Apple TV and the TDAI3400. I get very significant improvement to spotify premium and apple TV that way, although running the B side to the TDAI3400 on its own is marginally better again for spotify, I cant go back to old Apple TV.

ps I‘m also a fan of those blue fuses , however the new orange fuses are way better 😀. Not in the same league as Etheregen for SQ upgrade though.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
I’ve just caught up on this thread from Christmas onwards.

I also now run an Etheregen network switch in my system. fantastic piece of kit for the money , delivered significant SQ improvements, much more detail and much more musical, 3D soundstage. I run ethernet through power line from my router to the music system and I think this may be a factor in how much of an uptick in quality I received.

@sanderweb I’m running my switch backwards feeding the B side from the wall and the A side feeds Apple TV and the TDAI3400. I get very significant improvement to spotify premium and apple TV that way, although running the B side to the TDAI3400 on its own is marginally better again for spotify, I cant go back to old Apple TV.

ps I‘m also a fan of those blue fuses , however the new orange fuses are way better 😀. Not in the same league as Etheregen for SQ upgrade though.
Check this out. Home
Danish company - of course...
There you can get their top-of-the-line DT-C SUPREME ethernet switch for only 12,000EUR. But you may also need some of their power harmonization products, resonance feet and cable lifters (the ones covered with layers of Tantalum and Diamond at 1,000EUR each are highly recommended by one of my local hifi-stores) to ensure the right balance between electrical and mechanical grounding, required to get the full benefits. Not sure, but it makes sense based on the info provided.
EDIT: they also recommend getting LONGER cables as their cables actually improve the sound, so more of it is better. And stupid me thinking that the best cable was no cable at all... Apparently not; their cables can apparently improve the source. That is spectacular and triggers the FUD in me big time!
They don't sell fuses but you can always upgrade to the Beeswax Ultimate Super High Definition fuses, I've heard the soundstage and timing improvements in those are just phenomenal after just 100h burn-in (the wax obviously needs time to mature a bit, bringing out more tactile impact and more sweetness in the second and third harmonics as a result)!
:cool:
 
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larkone

Distinguished Member
I’ve just caught up on this thread from Christmas onwards.

I also now run an Etheregen network switch in my system. fantastic piece of kit for the money , delivered significant SQ improvements, much more detail and much more musical, 3D soundstage. I run ethernet through power line from my router to the music system and I think this may be a factor in how much of an uptick in quality I received.

@sanderweb I’m running my switch backwards feeding the B side from the wall and the A side feeds Apple TV and the TDAI3400. I get very significant improvement to spotify premium and apple TV that way, although running the B side to the TDAI3400 on its own is marginally better again for spotify, I cant go back to old Apple TV.

ps I‘m also a fan of those blue fuses , however the new orange fuses are way better 😀. Not in the same league as Etheregen for SQ upgrade though.
I am surprised these switches are not used in financial dealing rooms because by the sound of it they have the potential to increase profitability of share trades.
 

sanderweb

Active Member
Check this out. Home
Danish company - of course...
There you can get their top-of-the-line DT-C SUPREME ethernet switch for only 12,000EUR. But you may also need some of their power harmonization products, resonance feet and cable lifters (the ones covered with layers of Tantalum and Diamond at 1,000EUR each are highly recommended by one of my local hifi-stores) to ensure the right balance between electrical and mechanical grounding, required to get the full benefits. Not sure, but it makes sense based on the info provided.
EDIT: they also recommend getting LONGER cables as their cables actually improve the sound, so more of it is better. And stupid me thinking that the best cable was no cable at all... Apparently not; their cables can apparently improve the source. That is spectacular and triggers the FUD in me big time!
They don't sell fuses but you can always upgrade to the Beeswax Ultimate Super High Definition fuses, I've heard the soundstage and timing improvements in those are just phenomenal after just 100h burn-in (the wax obviously needs time to mature a bit, bringing out more tactile impact and more sweetness in the second and third harmonics as a result)!
:cool:
Sad to see you adopt the attitude of the blunt majority Erik. I am not saying that there isn't a lot of snake oil in this business. There is, as in many other areas where money earning is concerned.

The EtherREGEN is developed by a very well respected company (Uptone Audio) and for me it is the best investment I have ever made in this hobby with respect to costs vs. gain. In my opinion this product is nothing less than a break through in digital/streaming audio and it finally reveals what redbook content and higher res material is capable of. Technically, it completely isolates (and re-clocks) the incoming ethernet signal from the outgoing one and by this it eliminates leaking currents and common mode noise coming into ones system.

If I remember well, you DO use an isolation transformer. So somehow you are not completely immune to the merits of electrical isolation. And why did you invest in a 10K costing DAC when you believe all DAC's sound the same?
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member

scoc

Well-known Member
I’ve just caught up on this thread from Christmas onwards.

I also now run an Etheregen network switch in my system. fantastic piece of kit for the money , delivered significant SQ improvements, much more detail and much more musical, 3D soundstage. I run ethernet through power line from my router to the music system and I think this may be a factor in how much of an uptick in quality I received.

@sanderweb I’m running my switch backwards feeding the B side from the wall and the A side feeds Apple TV and the TDAI3400. I get very significant improvement to spotify premium and apple TV that way, although running the B side to the TDAI3400 on its own is marginally better again for spotify, I cant go back to old Apple TV.

ps I‘m also a fan of those blue fuses , however the new orange fuses are way better 😀. Not in the same league as Etheregen for SQ upgrade though.
I’m sorry but when you are using a Powerline to transfer an ethernet signal I cannot understand how you can benefit from a so called better ethernet switch. Because when you use an internet stream it has to pass that Powerline plug which will undo any potential benefit from better cabling or switch. Powerline ethernet plugs are noisy as hell.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Sad to see you adopt the attitude of the blunt majority Erik. I am not saying that there isn't a lot of snake oil in this business. There is, as in many other areas where money earning is concerned.

The EtherREGEN is developed by a very well respected company (Uptone Audio) and for me it is the best investment I have ever made in this hobby with respect to costs vs. gain. In my opinion this product is nothing less than a break through in digital/streaming audio and it finally reveals what redbook content and higher res material is capable of. Technically, it completely isolates (and re-clocks) the incoming ethernet signal from the outgoing one and by this it eliminates leaking currents and common mode noise coming into ones system.

If I remember well, you DO use an isolation transformer. So somehow you are not completely immune to the merits of electrical isolation. And why did you invest in a 10K costing DAC when you believe all DAC's sound the same?
Hey my friend, don't write me off just because of my Norwegian special humor :)
Please keep me on your list of the good guys and remove that sad face, it makes me sad too!

I do believe that many things a bit "over the top" affects the sound quality of my systems. But I prefer to spend money on those tweaks that have a clear foundation in engineering. Including heavy duty isolation transformers, they are used for many different purposes even if some of them cost a small fortune. Balanced power is underestimated. It is just like true balanced circuits in general, in dacs, preams, amps: I am a believer because the EE is well understood.

The dCS dac too, it is very well engineered and I understand that all that design effort and improvements over decades can affect performance in a good way. I do not think that the dCS Bartok sounds the same as my other DAC components, and I have many. It sounds better, for sure, otherwise I would have sold it but I definitely don't want to. It is for example very clear to me that it sounds better than the MP50 for stereo sources... The difference is not HUGE but it is definitely there and a worthwhile improvement to my (stereo) system, and worth 10k (better spent on that DAC than on a new 4K projector for example)... Not sure if it measures significantly better than a Chinese DAC for 500 USD, but at some point I just trust my ears.

With regards to EtherRegen or other components: I have seen how some components totally ignore basic engineering principles wrt grounding, shielding etc, so I think it has a place somewhere. This is so clear from all the measurements I've read in ASR showing how leakage current from an SMPS affects a DAC in ways you would not think is possible, etc.. But given the test in ASR: "Measurements conclusively demonstrate that EtherRegen did not change jitter, noise or distortion of the DAC. It further had no impact on its clock speed, or output voltage." And after all, that nothing costs 665 USD...
But yes, It DOES make a difference to twist wires... Even Alexander Graham Bell understood this in 1885. But 12k for an ethernet switch? Or someone telling you that longer wires are better, because the wires improves the sound? Or paying 250 USD for some guy pumping beeswax into a 1USD fuse.
So there is a limit to the BS, as I have tried to illustrate in the above post, and I really want to fight that nonsense, and for which that Danish company in my previous post is a very good example, IMHO.
 
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Sonic Guild

Active Member
Recently I got myself a pair of speakers that cost 37000 USD (MSRP). I intentionally don't want to reveal the manfcatuare just to avoid any biased opinions. My goal of this post is to understand the market and audiophile community.
Every time I invite a friend or a local dealer to audition my system, I get the same comment "are you joking by driving your speakers with this digital amp"!!
Everyone believes that I need a decent class AB amp to drive my speakers.

I did audition many amps in my room but there is something about Room Perfect that caught my attention and my heart as well.

My question to my beloved fellow members in this forum, have you had the chance to compare the 3400 to other expensive AB amps?
Would you laugh at me just like all my friends and give the same comment "are yo joking by driving your speakers with this digital amp".

I am an old guy and my primary language is not English, please forgive my poor writing skills.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Recently I got myself a pair of speakers that cost 37000 USD (MSRP). I intentionally don't want to reveal the manfcatuare just to avoid any biased opinions. My goal of this post is to understand the market and audiophile community.
Every time I invite a friend or a local dealer to audition my system, I get the same comment "are you joking by driving your speakers with this digital amp"!!
Everyone believes that I need a decent class AB amp to drive my speakers.

I did audition many amps in my room but there is something about Room Perfect that caught my attention and my heart as well.

My question to my beloved fellow members in this forum, have you had the chance to compare the 3400 to other expensive AB amps?
Would you laugh at me just like all my friends and give the same comment "are yo joking by driving your speakers with this digital amp".

I am an old guy and my primary language is not English, please forgive my poor writing skills.
The 3400 has a lot of power (and very clean within the audible range) and such clean power is underestimated IMO, I think even [email protected] is on the low side, even more would be better... I do not have a 3400 but I've heard it on high-end speakers and it sounded great. And RP is a lot more important than anything else for the total sound. So I think you made a very good choice.. Not saying there are no alternatives but ... ;-)
 
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Sonic Guild

Active Member
The 3400 has a lot of power (and very clean within the audible range) and such clean power is underestimated IMO. And RP is a lot more important than anything else for the total sound. So I think you made a very good choice.. Not saying there are no alternatives but ... ;-)
If I want to take the 3400 to the next level, do yo think getting a good streamer like the Aireis G2 will make any difference. I am confused when it comes to steamers, will the same DAC sound different when changing the streamer?
Right now I am connecting my 3400 to a MacBook as a source and as a Roon server.
 

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