Lyngdorf discussion

The DAtasat Rs20i and Trinnov Altitude can both handle active crossovers - you’ve got 24 channels max to play with on the Datasat and upto 48 with the Altitude 48 ext. if you’ve an Atmos system with lots of speakers and you’re aiming to do that with every speaker - those 2 are your best options. The Storm may also allow it.
 
A friend and I were thinking about ways to stay in the digital domain as much/long as possible and in a way mimic as closely as possible an SL system with non-SL gear ...

I also read somewhere that the Trinnov can do it. Are you sure that each XO consumes a channel?
If that is the case it will not fly of course as then SL with S-15 speakers will be cheaper.
Yes I can understand the motivation :) But a three-way speaker will require three outputs from the HTP if you implement the XO in the digital domain within a HTP (assuming you can find one that actually supports this, Trinnov and Datasat was mentioned above).
But IF you really want to do this, and go ALL the way digital (and even more so than the SL which has "digital" amps but passive speakers, at least the S-15's are), while still having RoomPerfect to mimic SL, the "cheapest" way would be to get something the MP-60 with the optional digital AES output board, and feed that to digital active speakers with AES inputs (in particular you can find a few studio monitors like that). It is not unrealistic but it will cost some...
BTW a DIY alternative with a stack of MiniDSPs, DACs and amps for each speaker element in a full HT setup would not necessarily be super expensive but it will be insanely complex - I would have liked to see it ;-)
 
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@arisholm, @Rock Danger, @sammy the squid

Sounds like this is not the way to go ;-)

In my case it is not literally DIY, but I'm discussing with a small company that builds speakers and can choose for passive or active XO, etc. For sure, will have the XO's handled by them.

I have looked at digital speakers from Meridian but almost all retailers in my country have indicated not to continue with this brand. And studio monitors have been researched also (Adam, HEDD, Genelec, etc.). Will not go that route as most of them are bulky and ugly and still cost quite a few bucks.

Thanks all for your contributions.
 
Can you add Lyngdorf W-210 subwoofers powered by a SDA-2400 to a MP-50 without using a miniDSP?
 
If you do have great subs, you can then try raising the crossover point between the speakers and subs. With MK X Series subs raising the crossover to 100/120/150 can transform a system but this is because they aren’t designed for maximum bang at the lowest price but the most even, neutral sound for use in studios etc.

Hi Rob
I recently got a MP-50 and I am familiar with the TDAI-2170 that I now use as a Power-amp
Currently I have a 5.1 set up composed of:
LCR: MK MP150
SR: MK 150T x2
Sub: MK X10 x1

What cut off frequency do you recommend for the fronts and surrounds? And what low-pass frequency for the X10 ?(I "only" have one) On its spec sheet it is written 200Hz but maybe it is to high?


I am saving to get a 2nd X10 to get stereo bass in the front corners as you explained previously, but menwhile I have the X10 place in the middle.

Many thanks.
 
@arisholm, @Rock Danger, @sammy the squid
And studio monitors have been researched also (Adam, HEDD, Genelec, etc.). Will not go that route as most of them are bulky and ugly and still cost quite a few bucks.
I don't disagree with your conclusions, but since you started the discussion: Check out this mid-level digital Adam S3V: It has AES-inputs, 500W+300W class-D+50W A/B amp in each speaker, a tweeter of exceptional quality, Max SPL of 124dB (same as my way too expensive Persona 9H), THD <0.4% (comparable to a B&W 800), at a cost of only 2000 EUR each. It is a bargain. Matching "center" S3H with 1350W built-in amplification and 126dB max SPL. Not that you'll ever play that loud but the headroom is fascinating! And you can use the smaller S2V as surrounds. Sorry I am a fan and I think people are missing out on that bargain by buying "Hifi" speakers (including myself)
If I could start all over I would get something like this with an MP-60 :)
 
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A friend and I were thinking about ways to stay in the digital domain as much/long as possible and in a way mimic as closely as possible an SL system with non-SL gear ...
Nothing wrong with the approach, just keep in mind that most SLs are not fully digital as pointed out by @arisholm. They're still using analogue XOs in the speakers and neither do they measure the signal arriving at the speaker (see Alcons) or monitor things such as driver feedback, temperature, etc. (see Meridian). For some speakers they offer DSP based XOs, similar to what Procella, JBL/Synthesis and other manufacturers offer. Whether the digital XO is in the processor or amp doesn't matter as long as you don't run into trouble with extremely long analogue cable runs and still have enough analogue outputs on the processor after the XO (usually 2 or 3 outputs needed per channel).
 
Check out this mid-level digital Adam S3V
I generally agree with your recommendation, at least in certain cases. The problem with Adam is, they're butt-ugly and not suitable for a living room. And for HT installations, they lack "flat" surround and ceiling speakers. And their directivity is pretty bad. For HT, especially with multiple seats/rows, I'd go for a wider dispersion. None of this is an issue in the application for which they were build, studio monitoring.
 
I generally agree with your recommendation, at least in certain cases. The problem with Adam is, they're butt-ugly and not suitable for a living room. And for HT installations, they lack "flat" surround and ceiling speakers. And their directivity is pretty bad. For HT, especially with multiple seats/rows, I'd go for a wider dispersion. None of this is an issue in the application for which they were build, studio monitoring.
Yes of course not "optimal", but I'm not really sure if the directivity is too narrow with their mid-field and main-monitors, even for HT applications.. Perhaps as surrounds yes, unless you like the more directional Auro3D config, like I do... But in terms of performance/price of a fully active digital monitor compared with a typical passive 2000EUR hifi-speaker, even excluding the added amplification? Yes my older S5X main monitors are butt-ugly boxy beasts but the new S2, S3 and S5 are not more ugly than the M&K range IMHO :) But no discrete In-wall, that's true. BTW, Alcons must win the price for most ugly? But I am sure they can deliver PLENTY of good sound, especially these cute babies CR4 - Alcons Audio :cool:
 
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Yes, there shouldn't be any difference connecting the W-210 to an MP-50 compared to a TDAI.

So I can just connect the SDA to the AUX1 and AUX2 outputs of the MP50 and set a crossover point?

Are these subs still any good? I know they are already a few years old.
 
I’ve just come across this comparing RoomPerfect and DIRAC.

The writer goes on to say “I’ve never seen anything so clean down to 10hz.

I can confirm again by listening, that room correction done in the time domain is far far better than just amplitude response, there is no doubt in my mind now that RP takes the lead for room correction. I have not seen any EQ programme that can correct the timing response of the bass that well down to 10hz without altering SPLs.

Here is the link Lyngdorf thread

Dirac v RoomPerfect.jpg
 
Icopalermo - The X10 is a fab sub, so placed at the front of the room between your main speakers I’d suggest trying a 100Hz crossover between the main speakers and the sub.

When you drop in a second X10 and place them in both front corners of the room you’ll hear a huge improvement with genuine stereo bass and the optimal timing that only this position in the room can provide.

I’d then try higher crossovers from 150-200Hz between the main speakers and the subs and I’m sure you’ll be a happy camper.
 
BTW You should have the crossover you set for your sub the same as you main front speakers. If you speakers play down to 100Hz while your subs play up to 150Hz you will have an increased level from 100 – 150Hz. So set both to say 150Hz.
 
I’ve just come across this comparing RoomPerfect and DIRAC.

The writer goes on to say “I’ve never seen anything so clean down to 10hz.

I can confirm again by listening, that room correction done in the time domain is far far better than just amplitude response, there is no doubt in my mind now that RP takes the lead for room correction. I have not seen any EQ programme that can correct the timing response of the bass that well down to 10hz without altering SPLs.

Here is the link Lyngdorf thread

View attachment 1227425

Similar to the results I got when I had the 3400 on loan to compare with my Arcam. I don't have the REW graphs any more, but recall the results, which listening tests confirmed.
 
BTW You should have the crossover you set for your sub the same as you main front speakers. If you speakers play down to 100Hz while your subs play up to 150Hz you will have an increased level from 100 – 150Hz. So set both to say 150Hz.

Thank you very much Rob.
I will set the MP150 to 100Hz and X10 low pass filter at 100Hz re run RoomPerferct. I will review how it sounds (probably this week-end)

I tried previously the MP150 at 125Hz and X10 200Hz, It was good for movies but on stereo music I found that the X10 was "shouting" too much.
I then tried MP150 at 80 Hz and X10 at 200Hz. The sound is closer to what I had with TDAI-2170 with a bit more punch.

I now understand a bit better how the MP-50 works respect to the TDAI. I am sure with everything cut at 100Hz it will be more even and balanced.
 
Thank you very much Rob.
I will set the MP150 to 100Hz and X10 low pass filter at 100Hz re run RoomPerferct. I will review how it sounds (probably this week-end)

I tried previously the MP150 at 125Hz and X10 200Hz, It was good for movies but on stereo music I found that the X10 was "shouting" too much.
I then tried MP150 at 80 Hz and X10 at 200Hz. The sound is closer to what I had with TDAI-2170 with a bit more punch.

I now understand a bit better how the MP-50 works respect to the TDAI. I am sure with everything cut at 100Hz it will be more even and balanced.
I have my X10's set at 100hz and found this worked well for music for me. Buy music is a more personal thing and 125hz was too high for me and I lost some of the magic from my MK 300's.
 
Looking at the article linked and comparing my REW graphs on Decay just as impressive.

Yet looking at that same article my experience with Dirac 2 is quite different.


Dirac 2 spectrogram 10-100hz.jpg
 
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I have tried different higher crossovers myself various times on both my stereo and surround Lyngdorf RP setups. During the initial few days/weeks I found this to sound great with increased punch and openness. However, after several weeks there was always something that bothered me with the sound. It did not sound natural anymore and the higher the crossover the more the speakers shouted a bit (or a bit more depending on tweeter types). It kinda lost the natural sound of the speakers being used mainly in the mids. I know Lyngdorf prefers this approach but that's not the say it works for all and sound is also something personal. So, I'm done with using higher crossovers and settled on 80Hz as my crossover and to my ears natural speaker/sound balance is restored.
 
BTW You should have the crossover you set for your sub the same as you main front speakers.

I disagree. In most cases, and regardless of the front speaker+sub crossover: set the independent low-pass of your sub(s) to the upper frequency where the sub(s) starts to roll off, e.g., the -3dB point. Or just a few Hz below that, to ensure that the sub has plenty of dynamic headroom and does not compress at high SPL at those frequencies. Typically that would be 120-250Hz depending on the sub... this is completely independent of the crossover of the sub/front speaker splice. Doing this will ensure the best speaker/sub integration and the best total headroom above the crossover. Also, RP will then correct the subs further up in frequency (but I can only document this for the MP-50 since I do not have a TDAI to play with) which is very valuable to ensure better phase alignment and amplitude correction between subs and speakers above the speaker+sub crossover frequency. And in a multichannel setup with the MP-50/60, it will also ensure that you get the complete LFE experience up to 120Hz. Finally, if you are worried about this, the subs will still not play "loud" above the speaker+sub crossover frequency (depending on the steepness of the filter), so the subs will not struggle but they will blend better....
 
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Yet looking at that same article my experience with Dirac 2 is quite different.


View attachment 1227519
@Ringnut note that the posted spectograms in that other thread unfortunately had different amplitude scales so they were not even possible to compare, except for the group delay (the dotted line in the middle). check it again;-)
PS: your graph looks outstanding (!!) perhaps except for the slight dip at 80Hz... big room/high ceilings??
 
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Tidal offered a four-month trial for their hi-fi tier for $1.99 (USD), so I figure that I would give it a try. How is everyone streaming their Tidal tracks to their MP-50/60 via their phones or laptops? I am completely unfamiliar with Roon and don't know if that is the best option, or maybe something else?
 
The principal which Lyngdorf recommend and that I’ve always had great results with, is that the output of your speakers and subs don’t crossover. If they do, your system would give too much output at say 150Hz because both your speakers and woofers are playing this frequency.

Obviously, there are a huge number of permutations you can try, which you may like but I’d definitely recommend this as the best starting point.
 
Tidal offered a four-month trial for their hi-fi tier for $1.99 (USD), so I figure that I would give it a try. How is everyone streaming their Tidal tracks to their MP-50/60 via their phones or laptops? I am completely unfamiliar with Roon and don't know if that is the best option, or maybe something else?
I use an iOS app called mconnect. Free version allows yuou to see if you like it, the paid version allows you to stream HiRes from Tidal and remembers the last device used.
 

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