Lyngdorf discussion

I lost faith in Lyngdorf's HDMI upgrade program for the MP50. My dealer could not get any confirmed time period from Lyngdorf on when it would be scheduled in. So, although it's a lot more expensive than the promised HDMI board upgrade I've made a deal with my hifi dealer and I'm going to trade up to an MP60.

I have no real use for the 16 channels (only max. 9) but I really wanted the new HDMI board to be future proof and also wanted to be on their latest platform. Bloody expensive hobby this is ;)
 
I didn't think I would want more channels then went... 'hmmmm maybe some front heights....'

Which is another SDA and 2x MK MP150's... must resist!!!!!!
 
UPNP with Audirvana - How ?

i have just installed the latest trial of Audirvana on my 2017 Mac and am trying to get it to communicate with my tdai3400. The only available devices I can see in Audirvana are the local (inbuilt and DAC outputs) devices on the Mac itself. No sign of any UPNP or even Airplay options.
The 3400 is connected to the Mac over Ethernet (via home plugs) but trying a wireless setting does not work either. All I can do at present is play Audirvana on the Mac itself.
On the 3400, selecting the UPNP input and searching on the Home page, shows my router but I cannot access any sub folders (none of which are directed to my music library anyway.
Can anyone help me to get this sorted ?

By the way, otherwise I have been using LMS server on the Mac controlled by Squeezepad and running over AirPlay. This all works properly.

Is something blocking the UPNP port on the Mac (how can I find out - I have no idea what to look for) ?

Thanks

OK. I have now managed to get UPNP working - the 3400 can access the files on my Mac through LOGITECH Media Server. But of course it cannot access my Qobuz account this way. And yes, the interface is pretty basic (No art etc).
But I do not know how I get LMS to output UPNP using the Squeezepad controller on my IPad. That only seems to work using Airplay.
Audirvana though is remaining a mystery, and there is no support line other than a community forum. It just does not recognise any devices (UPNP or Airplay enabled) other than those actually inbuilt, or directly wired to the Mac.
 
Wahay, now up and running with Audirvana over UPNP. The problem was a clash with another process on the Mac that was hogging the UPNP enabled port.
Sound quality is very good, although getting a few dropouts. Interface with the Audirvana remote is a bit slow and images too small but the upside is the ability to manage Qobuz playlists without needing to go upstairs and do that on the Mac.
 
Wahay, now up and running with Audirvana over UPNP. The problem was a clash with another process on the Mac that was hogging the UPNP enabled port.
Sound quality is very good, although getting a few dropouts. Interface with the Audirvana remote is a bit slow and images too small but the upside is the ability to manage Qobuz playlists without needing to go upstairs and do that on the Mac.
You can adjust the input buffer length in Audirvana to fix the dropouts. That should help in most cases.
 
I unfortunately missed out on an MP-50 sale recently, and have been doing a lot of reading on it since with a view to buying a used mp50 or even an MP60.

Setting the mp50 video performance to one side, I note the comments about the incredibly detailed sound and the very silent noise floor...all of which sounds most appealing. the mp50 spec states an impressive 120db Signal/noise ratio BUT this is with 5v RMS signal output, which is approx 12db to high for most (quality) 1-1.5v rms power amps, except of course for the Lyngdorf range.

introducing output attenuators seems to compromise the holy grail s/n promised Likely down to the more usual 106db of the anthem etc.

So, I wonder if the MP50/60 offers the same audio performce with power amps, other than Lyngdorf own ow gain Amos which match the high input voltage of the mp50 output?...or do you need to buy in to the whole chain?

Your post prompted me to call the manufacture of the amplifiers that I own (ATI [1.9v RMS]). They suggested that I shouldn't have any issues, although if pushed really high, the MP-60 could clip the amps. I am not too concerned as the amps are powerful and my speakers are highly efficient. They can easily make my ears bleed. My typical listening levels are -15-20. I determined that there is no need for me to modify anything.
 
Any idea where that setting is ? Can't see anything in Audirvana preferences . . .
preferences->audio system->(memory setting at the bottom)
If that does not work and you also get dropouts from a local storage you must have some wifi-issue since the bandwidth should be plenty on any modern wifi router with decent signal strength.
 
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It's 2.0b and where did you hear this?

Not sure what all this voltage output stuff is. But I use Lyngdorf 2vrms and Anthem 1.5vrms with zero issue. It'll work with all standard power amps as it should.
thanks for pointing out the SDA2400 input sensitivity is stated as 2vrms not 5vrms, and that both your amps work similarity and there are no ‘real world‘ problems. The quoted Anthem sensitivity of 1.5vrms is for the single ended inputs, the equivalent for the balanced inputs would be double the voltage at 3vrms, therefore I expect the 2vrms quoted for the sda2400 relates to the single ended input and that the differential input is 4vrms, as the mp50 they may have quoted the 5vrms as a differential output only as it does not have single ended outputs...although a bit sloppy (as they should have added differential, it’s the only thing that now makes sense to me. if that’s the case the MP50 is best matched to a 2.5vrms amp, so whilst still a bit high ...not as much of a problem as the specs may suggest.
It is clear that the Lyngdorf output is a BIT on the high side to perfectly match the 1-1.5V input sensitivity of many poweramps. But that is not to say that Lyngdorf is at fault. But nevertheless it will result in a fair bit of digital attenuation in the MP-50 and a slightly higher noise floor than strictly optimal. It is a shame that not more power-amps provide different gain settings but several do and that is a good thing. All of mine do so I am in luck ;-) Also many high-end DACs can be configured to output similar or even a lot higher output voltages, including my dCS, and I use the 6V balanced output setting, thus requiring very little/zero gain in my preamp/input buffer for enough power for "loud" speaker SPL. If you check that previous article I referred to (Review and Measurements of Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier), you will notice that they discuss gain matching a fair bit and also measure the impact of that on SNR. I will not claim to understand all the possible tradeoffs and implications, other than stating that it is important to consider gain structure in a chain of digital and analog components, and I always had good results with having high output voltages just after the DAC... just like the MP-50 does... as long as the amp can handle it;-)

However, you should also consider that RoomPerfect (or any RC) will also attenuate the internal signal in the digital domain, to provide sufficient headroom for correction filters (at least -6dB, perhaps more). So I doubt the MP-50 in practice will ever output 5V rms, which I assume is for a full-scale 0dBFS signal, which the DAC will never see with RP activated, even at full volume. So as a compromise, I would *guess* that amps with an input sensitivity of perhaps 2V for full power should be a good match with the MP-50.

I have not experimented a lot with this, other than reducing the input sensitivity of my active speakers to match "reasonably well" with the MP-50 output, and then I left it at that; I also think you must have a VERY quiet room for this whole discussion to become more than a theoretical issue except for cases of fairly extreme gain mismatch. I still think this is something Lyngdorf should give some recommendations on...
thanks for your detailed post, hopefully my guess that the mp50 output is quoted as a differential voltage is correct, but your comments are all helpful.

No, the attenuators reduce the noise and signal equally, as they are both voltages.
suggest you do a bit more research.
Your post prompted me to call the manufacture of the amplifiers that I own (ATI [1.9v RMS]). They suggested that I shouldn't have any issues, although if pushed really high, the MP-60 could clip the amps. I am not too concerned as the amps are powerful and my speakers are highly efficient. They can easily make my ears bleed. My typical listening levels are -15-20. I determined that there is no need for me to modify anything.
sorry for the mild scare!, you can always turn the volume down but to ensure the full dynamic range is in play and preserve the full signal to noise ratio these things matter!
 
I lost faith in Lyngdorf's HDMI upgrade program for the MP50. My dealer could not get any confirmed time period from Lyngdorf on when it would be scheduled in. So, although it's a lot more expensive than the promised HDMI board upgrade I've made a deal with my hifi dealer and I'm going to trade up to an MP60.

I have no real use for the 16 channels (only max. 9) but I really wanted the new HDMI board to be future proof and also wanted to be on their latest platform. Bloody expensive hobby this is ;)
Ouch
 
suggest you study up on electricity

No offence meant, I have a first class degree in physics and electronice, and spent 30 years after that designing electronic equipment so no further studies necessary
 
You disagree that attenuation applies to both signal and noise?
 
You disagree that attenuation applies to both signal and noise?
If you attenuate a signal and then re-amplify it, the resultant output signal will have more noise than if you had not attenuated it in the first place and applied less gain to the final stage. any input noise is always amplified (together with the signal) by the amplifier gain.

not to mention the Potential for impedance mismatch and extra resistor noise
 
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thanks for your detailed post, hopefully my guess that the mp50 output is quoted as a differential voltage is correct, but your comments are all helpful.
Yes you are probably right. I hope ;-) So yes, in that case, even less of a problem! But as a slight side issue, this made me wonder about the amount of digital attenuation the MP-50 applies to achieve the target "SPL reference level" in RP, depending on the amp sensitivity (and speaker sensitivity). It should be investigated if I can figure out how.
 
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Yes you are probably right. I hope ;-) So yes, in that case, even less of a problem! But as a slight side issue, this made me wonder about the amount of digital attenuation the MP-50 applies to achieve the target "SPL reference level" in RP, depending on the amp sensitivity (and speaker sensitivity). It should be investigated if I can figure out how.
At 5/1.5 that was a major concern I had too, as if your unable to ‘use‘ the upper part of the volume ladder the max volume will be reached far to quickly, this effects the fineness of the volume control, but also potentially the achievable overall dynamic range would all suffer, especially if the output DACs are used to implement volume, as in effect they are losing bit depth due to a mismatch on the power amp gain.
 
If you attenuate a signal and then re-amplify it, the resultant output signal will have more noise than if you had not attenuated it in the first place and applied less gain to the final stage. any input noise is always amplified (together with the signal) by the amplifier gain.


That doesn't apply here, as the context of the discussion was reducing the MP-50's high output voltage.
 
It all seems a bit underwhelming when I've seen these run above reference without anything exploding or excessive clipping - one would think that all of this in the real world application is not important, no?

But what is I guess important is @burtonpark , where did you hear this rumour regarding the HDMI board. I just can't imagine it being a real thing, especially given the length of time they have been working on it and having to move to a new supplier.
 
It all seems a bit underwhelming when I've seen these run above reference without anything exploding or excessive clipping - one would think that all of this in the real world application is not important, no?
Agree, in most normal circumstances I think it will be a non-issue and nothing to worry about:) However, for the few who have reported noise, gain mismatch is a possible reason. I do remember @stjernholm having trouble with noise and adding attenuators before his NAD m27 mch amp (1.3V sensitivity). In his review he stated that the MP-50 was 24dB "too hot" (not sure in reference to what, it sounds too high)... https://www.avforums.com/attachments/review-lyngdorf-mp-50_biojensen_dec18_eng-pdf.1111505/ It has never been a problem in my system but I will try varying the amp gain in my Adams to the extremes (-20dB to +8dB, currently at -4dB) once I have some spare time and see what happens ;-)
As a more extreme example: I can imagine there would be some noise issues if I tried to match my MP-50 (5V out) with a 300W amp (with fixed 1V input sensitivity) with my Westminsters (99dB@1W)... (unless you actually want to listen @123dB SPL with the volume at 10am) :confused:
 
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Lyngdorf Service said:
Flemming Smith added:

Hi
the program has indeed started - but we take them in at a steady pace, so we keep the turn-around on a single week

Best regards
Flemming Smith
Product Specialist
Steinway Lyngdorf

So, for all you MP50 owners there is an upgrade program alive and well. Also
DTS:X PRO depends on DTS releasing the decoding software together with Analog Devices for the SHARC's - early 2020 is my best bet.
 
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So, for all you MP50 owners there is an upgrade program alive and well. Also
DTS:X PRO depends on DTS releasing the decoding software together with Analog Devices for the SHARC's - early 2020 is my best bet.

.
 
DTS:X Pro is for the MP60 only.

I'll find out more, but the MP60 is not just extra channels and a board. I'm pretty sure the DSP board and something else gets changed as well - I know this because they looked at a 16ch upgrade not long after the MP50 was released and it wasn't possible.

Or so the lore goes.... But the 8ch amp last Feb is what tipped the hat for a 16ch processor, I called it soon after that.
 
Just re-asking a question I'd got an answer to previously. Connecting the TDAI3400 to an Anthem AV Amp so that the 3400 drives lt and rt fronts and subs and the Anthem drives the rest:
- Rob replied with a helpful post here
- I used this setup initially with 3 subs, the third sub connected to the Anthem
- After a visit from the 'guru', we figured out that bass was not coming out of the front lt and rt subs, just the third sub
- I ended up selling the third sub
- on trying this arrangement again with just two subs recently (both connected to the 3400) the opening of Blade Runner 2049 sounded awesome
- however, in other movies and TV shows, the bass sounds thin

The Anthem does not have a setting to set speakers to 'large' or 'small'
Instead, there is a bass management menu with options for 'subwoofer LPF for LFE' (set to 'bypass') and speaker crossovers (set to 'off').

Three questions:
1. Is the reason this sounds like it is working for Blade Runner 2049 due to the LFE channel working properly?
2. Is the reason it sounds thin for other media due to it not working properly for the speaker crossovers as opposed to LFE?
3. If so, how do I fix this?

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