Lyngdorf discussion thread.

orange55

Well-known Member

icopalermo

Standard Member
BTW You should have the crossover you set for your sub the same as you main front speakers. If you speakers play down to 100Hz while your subs play up to 150Hz you will have an increased level from 100 – 150Hz. So set both to say 150Hz.
Thank you very much Rob.
I will set the MP150 to 100Hz and X10 low pass filter at 100Hz re run RoomPerferct. I will review how it sounds (probably this week-end)

I tried previously the MP150 at 125Hz and X10 200Hz, It was good for movies but on stereo music I found that the X10 was "shouting" too much.
I then tried MP150 at 80 Hz and X10 at 200Hz. The sound is closer to what I had with TDAI-2170 with a bit more punch.

I now understand a bit better how the MP-50 works respect to the TDAI. I am sure with everything cut at 100Hz it will be more even and balanced.
 

orange55

Well-known Member
Thank you very much Rob.
I will set the MP150 to 100Hz and X10 low pass filter at 100Hz re run RoomPerferct. I will review how it sounds (probably this week-end)

I tried previously the MP150 at 125Hz and X10 200Hz, It was good for movies but on stereo music I found that the X10 was "shouting" too much.
I then tried MP150 at 80 Hz and X10 at 200Hz. The sound is closer to what I had with TDAI-2170 with a bit more punch.

I now understand a bit better how the MP-50 works respect to the TDAI. I am sure with everything cut at 100Hz it will be more even and balanced.
I have my X10's set at 100hz and found this worked well for music for me. Buy music is a more personal thing and 125hz was too high for me and I lost some of the magic from my MK 300's.
 

scoc

Active Member
I have tried different higher crossovers myself various times on both my stereo and surround Lyngdorf RP setups. During the initial few days/weeks I found this to sound great with increased punch and openness. However, after several weeks there was always something that bothered me with the sound. It did not sound natural anymore and the higher the crossover the more the speakers shouted a bit (or a bit more depending on tweeter types). It kinda lost the natural sound of the speakers being used mainly in the mids. I know Lyngdorf prefers this approach but that's not the say it works for all and sound is also something personal. So, I'm done with using higher crossovers and settled on 80Hz as my crossover and to my ears natural speaker/sound balance is restored.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
BTW You should have the crossover you set for your sub the same as you main front speakers.
I disagree. In most cases, and regardless of the front speaker+sub crossover: set the independent low-pass of your sub(s) to the upper frequency where the sub(s) starts to roll off, e.g., the -3dB point. Or just a few Hz below that, to ensure that the sub has plenty of dynamic headroom and does not compress at high SPL at those frequencies. Typically that would be 120-250Hz depending on the sub... this is completely independent of the crossover of the sub/front speaker splice. Doing this will ensure the best speaker/sub integration and the best total headroom above the crossover. Also, RP will then correct the subs further up in frequency (but I can only document this for the MP-50 since I do not have a TDAI to play with) which is very valuable to ensure better phase alignment and amplitude correction between subs and speakers above the speaker+sub crossover frequency. And in a multichannel setup with the MP-50/60, it will also ensure that you get the complete LFE experience up to 120Hz. Finally, if you are worried about this, the subs will still not play "loud" above the speaker+sub crossover frequency (depending on the steepness of the filter), so the subs will not struggle but they will blend better....
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
Yet looking at that same article my experience with Dirac 2 is quite different.


View attachment 1227519
@Ringnut note that the posted spectograms in that other thread unfortunately had different amplitude scales so they were not even possible to compare, except for the group delay (the dotted line in the middle). check it again;-)
PS: your graph looks outstanding (!!) perhaps except for the slight dip at 80Hz... big room/high ceilings??
 
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BassMojo

Standard Member
Tidal offered a four-month trial for their hi-fi tier for $1.99 (USD), so I figure that I would give it a try. How is everyone streaming their Tidal tracks to their MP-50/60 via their phones or laptops? I am completely unfamiliar with Roon and don't know if that is the best option, or maybe something else?
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
The principal which Lyngdorf recommend and that I’ve always had great results with, is that the output of your speakers and subs don’t crossover. If they do, your system would give too much output at say 150Hz because both your speakers and woofers are playing this frequency.

Obviously, there are a huge number of permutations you can try, which you may like but I’d definitely recommend this as the best starting point.
 

orange55

Well-known Member
Tidal offered a four-month trial for their hi-fi tier for $1.99 (USD), so I figure that I would give it a try. How is everyone streaming their Tidal tracks to their MP-50/60 via their phones or laptops? I am completely unfamiliar with Roon and don't know if that is the best option, or maybe something else?
I use an iOS app called mconnect. Free version allows yuou to see if you like it, the paid version allows you to stream HiRes from Tidal and remembers the last device used.
 

scoc

Active Member
Tidal offered a four-month trial for their hi-fi tier for $1.99 (USD), so I figure that I would give it a try. How is everyone streaming their Tidal tracks to their MP-50/60 via their phones or laptops? I am completely unfamiliar with Roon and don't know if that is the best option, or maybe something else?
From an Apple device and Tidal app you can use Airplay to MP50/60 or TDAI3400.

Otherwise you can use Roon + Tidal and MP60 or TDAI3400 (not on MP50).
 

icopalermo

Standard Member
The principal which Lyngdorf recommend and that I’ve always had great results with, is that the output of your speakers and subs don’t crossover. If they do, your system would give too much output at say 150Hz because both your speakers and woofers are playing this frequency.

Obviously, there are a huge number of permutations you can try, which you may like but I’d definitely recommend this as the best starting point.
Thanks
Should I set the center channel and surround speakers at 100 Hz also?
The S150T are close to my ears (less than 6,5 fts)
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
The principal which Lyngdorf recommend and that I’ve always had great results with, is that the output of your speakers and subs don’t crossover. If they do, your system would give too much output at say 150Hz because both your speakers and woofers are playing this frequency.

Obviously, there are a huge number of permutations you can try, which you may like but I’d definitely recommend this as the best starting point.
@Rob Sinden: I am very sorry, I just realised we are talking about different configurations/settings so my comments must be confusing:
I live in an MP-50 bubble where I was primarily referring to the additional and independent "subwoofer size" setting, ie. the sub low-pass filter which exists in addition to the separate speaker+sub crossovers, only applicable to the MP-50/60. *That* low-pass filter should be set at a high frequency just below where the sub starts to roll off.
But now I've also read the TDAI manual and I realise the potential for confusion ;-)
In the TDAI there is one high-pass filter setting for the speaker outputs, and one separate low-pass filter for the sub(s), and they combine to be the "crossover". So then I agree, setting those two cut-off frequencies to be the same for sub and speaker is a very sensible starting point, and makes a traditional "crossover". However, eventually one may want to experiment with a larger overlap, which may be beneficial to get more headroom and lower distortion in the mid-bass, assuming the sub can handle it and sub and speaker play in phase, a bit similar to a 2.5way crossover; and RP will reduce the excess combined output. You may eventually also experiment with asymmetric filter slopes, or other permutations as you also acknowledge. But none of that was actually my main point in the previous post where I incorrectly "disagreed" with you.
Apologies for the confusion.
 
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Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Ico – yes, as a starting point, choose the crossover point of the sub dependant on its quality, headroom, placement. So, with an X10 at the front of the room, between the main speakers I’d suggest 100Hz. When you run a pair in each front corner try 150 or 200Hz. This is then the crossover point for the other speakers.

If your other speakers can’t handle the power, raise the crossover to them.

NB I’ve heard a couple of system recently with SVS subs that had an obvious cabinet resonance. Using these I wouldn’t go above 80Hz.

Aris- understood! Is the problem of having multiple conversations at once…..❤❤❤❤
 

NDLO

Standard Member
So then I agree, setting those two cut-off frequencies to be the same for sub and speaker is a very sensible starting point, and makes a traditional "crossover". However, eventually one may want to experiment with a larger overlap, which may be beneficial to get more headroom and lower distortion in the mid-bass, assuming the sub can handle it and sub and speaker play in phase, a bit similar to a 2.5way crossover; and RP will reduce the excess combined output.
Some time ago I studied the effect of various filter settings checking each step with measurements. In my case (sub filter was set to max as advised by Lyngdorf, the sub was in phase with the speakers), when both frequencies are the same, there is a hump at this frequency no matter what is the order of the filters. RP does not remove this hump, just makes it smoother.
To get a perfect integration I had to separate the filter frequencies, 35Hz for low-pass and 80Hz for high-pass. The reason is that actual roll-off frequencies differ from the ones shown on the display.
And I don't understand how overlapping frequencies give more headroom, EVEN if the resulting hump was corrected by RP. But, maybe...
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
To get a perfect integration I had to separate the filter frequencies, 35Hz for low-pass and 80Hz for high-pass. The reason is that actual roll-off frequencies differs from the ones shown on the display.
And I don't understand how overlapping frequencies give more headroom, EVEN if the resulting hump was corrected by RP. But, maybe...
Yes I've seen that too in one of my previous setups. With first and second order filters in particular, you may end up with something like 35LP/80HP to make the crossover band reasonably flat before any RC is applied, IF you have a peak in between there for either the speaker or sub or both. Although 35/80 is a bit extreme case I think and you will not benefit much from the sub in that case.. And you are then using the crossover as a kind of "pre RP" room correction. But it is true that RP may not always reduce the excess "bump" to a sufficient degree (due to how it calculates upper and lower correction bounds). In that case I would use voicings as a final touch after RP (I would not use that to fill inn dips but to reduce peaks it is unproblematic). That approach sounds better to me than setting 35LP/80HP actually. But yes, the options are endless and measurements to the rescue.
About headroom vs overlap, the principle is simple: it's like using the (presumed more powerful) subwoofer as an extension of your speaker woofer, so in the overlapping region you will have two elements instead of one, as you do with a 2.5way crossover. I.e. each of them must move less air for a given SPL, and you can "turn down the volume" in that region, hence more total headroom.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
BTW here is how my current front speakers + subs are "crossed over" and combine/add up in the crossover region. Just to illustrate that crossovers are not brick-wall. Both sub and speaker contribute to the SPL in a quite wide band on each side of the 100Hz crossover frequency, which will happen when sub and speaker are (reasonably) in phase, from about 40Hz to 150Hz in this case. These are 12dB/octave filters, after RP, neutral, focus. Smoothed for ease of interpretation.
1575476347966.png
 
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Ashmanuk

Well-known Member
So for the MP-50 are we saying if your subs are set to 200hz your LCR and Surrounds should also be at 200hz ??

At the moment I have subs at 125hz and all other speakers at 80hz
 

NDLO

Standard Member
Although 35/80 is a bit extreme case I think and you will not benefit much from the sub in that case..
W/o the sub the speakers' roll-off starts at 40Hz, with the sub and 35/80 filters the system's roll-off starts at 23-25Hz, almost an octave gain. Unfortunately, with RP on everything below 30Hz is cut. Anyway, the difference between 40 and 30 can be heard, sometimes :).

And you are then using the crossover as a kind of "pre RP" room correction.
It's not exactly a room correction, I just integrate the sub and the speakers. Why ask RP to do smth that I can do better. And the result is very good.

In that case I would use voicings as a final touch after RP (I would not use that to fill inn dips but to reduce peaks it is unproblematic). That approach sounds better to me than setting 35LP/80HP actually.
The 2170 does not have user adjustable voicings. And the ones it has are not suitable for fine tuning.
Anyway, the voicings are filters too.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
So for the MP-50 are we saying if your subs are set to 200hz your LCR and Surrounds should also be at 200hz ??

At the moment I have subs at 125hz and all other speakers at 80hz
No, you are fine. That was exactly the potential point of confusion that I mentioned between the TDAI and the MP...
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Depends on the end result, but no. I'm probably better off with an 80hz x-over because of a 65hz dip in my room. If I didn't have that dip it would probably be 100hz, with the sub turned up to bypass and 160hz in the MP60.

There's naff all LE above 90hz anway but it won't do it any harm.
 

Ashmanuk

Well-known Member
Ok that's what I thought but just wanted to clarify 👍 just be sure 🤪
 

Ashmanuk

Well-known Member
Depends on the end result, but no. I'm probably better off with an 80hz x-over because of a 65hz dip in my room. If I didn't have that dip it would probably be 100hz, with the sub turned up to bypass and 160hz in the MP60.

There's naff all LE above 90hz anway but it won't do it any harm.
My best so far was 80hz LCR and 200hz Aux subs
I have a dip at 70hz which is really annoying
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Then that's probably just fine. There is no hard and fast rule - even with room perfect off and a substantial lift at 35hz the MP60 sounds really good. I know it's not exactly correct but some people would kill for this kind of extra wobble party bass explosion stuff in their room.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member

Ringnut

Distinguished Member
@Ringnut note that the posted spectograms in that other thread unfortunately had different amplitude scales so they were not even possible to compare, except for the group delay (the dotted line in the middle). check it again;-)
PS: your graph looks outstanding (!!) perhaps except for the slight dip at 80Hz... big room/high ceilings??
Thank you, but sorry not with you there. I was comparing my Dirac 2 spectogram with the RP one on that link which was 54-95dB, mine was pretty close at 56-95dB. My room is 69 cu. mtr. but I think that dip was caused by some time alignment issues at the 80hz crossover. Hopefully that issue will be addressed by the soon to be released Bass Management Module.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Thank you, but sorry not with you there. I was comparing my Dirac 2 spectogram with the RP one on that link which was 54-95dB, mine was pretty close at 56-95dB. My room is 69 cu. mtr. but I think that dip was caused by some time alignment issues at the 80hz crossover. Hopefully that issue will be addressed by the soon to be released Bass Management Module.
Hi I only question the results of the other thread since the scale of his two spectograms were different (Dirac at 38-78dB, making it look worse than it was). Anyway, not important :)
 

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