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Lyngdorf discussion thread.

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
All Dolby surround Processor and Receivers have bass management and it must be used correctly or sound quality will be seriously compromised and speakers can be damaged.

In your system with a Lyngdorf TDAi3400 “driving” the front stereo speakers and subs, this amp must be fed a full range signal. You do this in your Receiver, by telling it your front speakers are full range, you are not using a sub and all the other speakers do not play bass.

When you have done this, the bass intended for say a rear speaker or an Atmos speaker will be redirected to your front full range speaker. When this is done well, it seems as if you have full range speakers all around you. This means you can use smaller speakers all around the room which are much cheaper and easier to fit into a room than large full range speakers.

This is the basis of THX recommendations and of all MK systems which makes for much more cost-effective surround systems than using full range speakers.

Lyngdorf take the concept one step further with genuine stereo bass, boundary woofers that give optimal timing and much wider bandwidth - 800Hz rather than 80Hz. The whole system is optimised with RoomPerfect which is unique in measuring and correcting each speaker with each woofer on that side of the room.

It’s the total system approach that gives better results at the price than the traditional mix and match approach to buying the best system.
 

anjan

Active Member
When you have done this, the bass intended for say a rear speaker or an Atmos speaker will be redirected to your front full range speaker. When this is done well, it seems as if you have full range speakers all around you. This means you can use smaller speakers all around the room which are much cheaper and easier to fit into a room than large full range speakers.
Thanks again Rob

I can't hear any difference between setting the satellites to small with XO 80hz vs setting all speakers to large. I wonder if there is a reference from Anthem as to how their MRX range routes bass from satellites when using pre-outs for front stereo speakers and subs.
 

Lydfnutt

Novice Member
Analog gain mismatch is not solved by adjusting the output signal in the digital domain: As a result of the RP calibration, and according to Lyngdorf email correspondence, the "channel gain" in the MP-50/60 will just attenuate (= right shift bits(*)) in the digital domain, which in turn means that the DAC will never see 0dbFS signals, so the analog output stage will output less than the maximum 5V rms. The amount of digital attenuation required depends on the input sensitivity of the amp and the efficiency of the speakers, to reach the target reference SPL level determined during calibration. It is correct that this digital "gain" adjustment will result in that the poweramps will not be overdriven, as Marc states, because in the extreme cases, the maximum of 20dB digital attenuation means that it will output 0.5V only.

But at the same time, SNR will no longer reach the specified theoretical 120dB in this case because the noise floor has not changed (much), only the signal has been lowered. That's why the analog gain matching becomes important. In the extreme cases, external attenuators could be a solution. That said, many high-end DACs with digital volume controls solve this in better way by having variable analog output gain, for example my dCS: 0.2V, 0.6V, 2V, 6V settings. I wonder why Lyngdorf did not provide such adjustable analog output gain for such a high end product. Another way is to get a power amp with adjustable input sensitivity/gain, for example the NAD M22.2 has three settings, my old Electrocompaniet has variable input sensitivity, same with my Adam active speakers (-20dB to +8dB in steps of 4dB)..

I would not say that this is a Lyngdorf specific problem: gain (and impedance) matching has always been important in any setup. That's why it may be an advantage to choose components from the same manufacturer if you do not want to worry about all this. My ASR amp has both variable gain and selectable input impedance via dip-switches. I love that flexibility but it does complicate things :)

Also, whether any of this matters in practice, in a typical listening environment with already 40-50dB SPL background noise, is a different discussion (try to do a hearing test with speakers in a normal listening environment - for all of us the results will indicate that you may need a hearing aid; because of the background noise you will not be able to pick up puretones at 10dB or even 30dB HL :)).

(*) note that digital attenuation down to -24dB on a 24-bit word length will have NO impact on the actual resolution as it shifts bits below the noise floor (144dB-120dB).

<Edited and expanded for some extra level of detail and nerdiness. I will say no more about the topic>
So if I understand you correctly, attenuation in the digital domain is a mathematical operation that decrease the numerical value of the amplitude, ensuring that a too high analogue voltage level out is not reached in practice. The potential of clipping is thus lessened. But the mismatch problem is not really solved, and if you over-correct in the digital domain you may end up with more noise as you then (re)amplify a modified signal with a lower SNR in the analogue domain.

Thank you @arisholm, that is very helpful. I'll have to reread the discussion with this point more clearly in mind.

<Edit: The level of detail and nerdiness was appreciated! >
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
From what I remember in ARC there's a full range check box, or turning off bass management. It's been a while since I used one.
 

Marcel073

Active Member
Suppose one has 4 full range 3-way speakers for FL, FR, SL and SR and a bunch of 2-way speakers for C and heights. Then one or two subs. All speakers and subs are passive and require digital XO's. The 3-way's require two XO's each and the 2-way's one each.

Can the MP-60 handle this on its own or is the number of XO's somehow limited?

I read that people use mini-DSP to "manage" their XO's, so started wondering if that is due to limitations in the LA processor.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
You can put whatever x-over you want for any pair of speakers. They do it in a small, medium and large, then 'custom' in the menu - you can select a natural roll off from the speaker as well.

Who are these people using Lyngdorf processors and MiniDSP for crossovers? I just can't see why that could even be a thing.
 

Marcel073

Active Member
I do not understand your remark on the "S, M and L".
It suggests that one cannot enter any value whereas your first sentence states "... put whatever XO you want ...".

How would it work if I have a 3-way speaker and need XO's at e.g. 120 and 2.400 Hz?
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Small (100hz) Medium (80hz) Large (60hz)

No you can't have 2 different x-overs for the same speaker. Why do the speakers need 2 X-overs if they're passive? no internal crossover?
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
You can put whatever x-over you want for any pair of speakers. They do it in a small, medium and large, then 'custom' in the menu - you can select a natural roll off from the speaker as well.

Who are these people using Lyngdorf processors and MiniDSP for crossovers? I just can't see why that could even be a thing.
I think what @Marcel073 talks about those who want to turn their passive speakers into active speakers with digital XO ("The 3-way's require two XO's each and the 2-way's one each"). That is not handled by the Lyngdorf or hardly any other HTP. The 32-channel Trinnov can do it I think but even that will soon run out of channels if you have to spend three channels on each speaker... and is obviously a VERY expensive solution for such applications: in that case the common way is to use something like a bunch of miniDSP 2x4 to implement custom digital XO, speaker element alignment etc... not the job of a processor IMHO. In terms of subs and bass management the MP-50 is very flexible with 4 aux outputs in addition to the LFE-channel.
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Sounds like a total and unnecessary ballache.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member

Marcel073

Active Member
I think what @Marcel073 talks about those who want to turn their passive speakers into active speakers with digital XO ("The 3-way's require two XO's each and the 2-way's one each"). That is not handled by the Lyngdorf or hardly any other HTP. The 32-channel Trinnov can do it I think but even that will soon run out of channels if you have to spend three channels on each speaker... and is obviously a VERY expensive solution for such applications: in that case the common way is to use something like a bunch of miniDSPs with custom digital XO, speaker element alignment etc... not the job of a processor IMHO. In terms of subs and bass management the MP-50 is very flexible with 4 aux outputs in addition to the LFE-channel.
A friend and I were thinking about ways to stay in the digital domain as much/long as possible and in a way mimic as closely as possible an SL system with non-SL gear ...

I also read somewhere that the Trinnov can do it. Are you sure that each XO consumes a channel?
If that is the case it will not fly of course as then SL with S-15 speakers will be cheaper.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Sound better as well.
 

sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
The DAtasat Rs20i and Trinnov Altitude can both handle active crossovers - you’ve got 24 channels max to play with on the Datasat and upto 48 with the Altitude 48 ext. if you’ve an Atmos system with lots of speakers and you’re aiming to do that with every speaker - those 2 are your best options. The Storm may also allow it.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
A friend and I were thinking about ways to stay in the digital domain as much/long as possible and in a way mimic as closely as possible an SL system with non-SL gear ...

I also read somewhere that the Trinnov can do it. Are you sure that each XO consumes a channel?
If that is the case it will not fly of course as then SL with S-15 speakers will be cheaper.
Yes I can understand the motivation :) But a three-way speaker will require three outputs from the HTP if you implement the XO in the digital domain within a HTP (assuming you can find one that actually supports this, Trinnov and Datasat was mentioned above).
But IF you really want to do this, and go ALL the way digital (and even more so than the SL which has "digital" amps but passive speakers, at least the S-15's are), while still having RoomPerfect to mimic SL, the "cheapest" way would be to get something the MP-60 with the optional digital AES output board, and feed that to digital active speakers with AES inputs (in particular you can find a few studio monitors like that). It is not unrealistic but it will cost some...
BTW a DIY alternative with a stack of MiniDSPs, DACs and amps for each speaker element in a full HT setup would not necessarily be super expensive but it will be insanely complex - I would have liked to see it ;-)
 
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Marcel073

Active Member
@arisholm, @Rock Danger, @sammy the squid

Sounds like this is not the way to go ;-)

In my case it is not literally DIY, but I'm discussing with a small company that builds speakers and can choose for passive or active XO, etc. For sure, will have the XO's handled by them.

I have looked at digital speakers from Meridian but almost all retailers in my country have indicated not to continue with this brand. And studio monitors have been researched also (Adam, HEDD, Genelec, etc.). Will not go that route as most of them are bulky and ugly and still cost quite a few bucks.

Thanks all for your contributions.
 

icopalermo

Standard Member
If you do have great subs, you can then try raising the crossover point between the speakers and subs. With MK X Series subs raising the crossover to 100/120/150 can transform a system but this is because they aren’t designed for maximum bang at the lowest price but the most even, neutral sound for use in studios etc.
Hi Rob
I recently got a MP-50 and I am familiar with the TDAI-2170 that I now use as a Power-amp
Currently I have a 5.1 set up composed of:
LCR: MK MP150
SR: MK 150T x2
Sub: MK X10 x1

What cut off frequency do you recommend for the fronts and surrounds? And what low-pass frequency for the X10 ?(I "only" have one) On its spec sheet it is written 200Hz but maybe it is to high?


I am saving to get a 2nd X10 to get stereo bass in the front corners as you explained previously, but menwhile I have the X10 place in the middle.

Many thanks.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
@arisholm, @Rock Danger, @sammy the squid
And studio monitors have been researched also (Adam, HEDD, Genelec, etc.). Will not go that route as most of them are bulky and ugly and still cost quite a few bucks.
I don't disagree with your conclusions, but since you started the discussion: Check out this mid-level digital Adam S3V: It has AES-inputs, 500W+300W class-D+50W A/B amp in each speaker, a tweeter of exceptional quality, Max SPL of 124dB (same as my way too expensive Persona 9H), THD <0.4% (comparable to a B&W 800), at a cost of only 2000 EUR each. It is a bargain. Matching "center" S3H with 1350W built-in amplification and 126dB max SPL. Not that you'll ever play that loud but the headroom is fascinating! And you can use the smaller S2V as surrounds. Sorry I am a fan and I think people are missing out on that bargain by buying "Hifi" speakers (including myself)
If I could start all over I would get something like this with an MP-60 :)
 
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StephanG

Active Member
A friend and I were thinking about ways to stay in the digital domain as much/long as possible and in a way mimic as closely as possible an SL system with non-SL gear ...
Nothing wrong with the approach, just keep in mind that most SLs are not fully digital as pointed out by @arisholm. They're still using analogue XOs in the speakers and neither do they measure the signal arriving at the speaker (see Alcons) or monitor things such as driver feedback, temperature, etc. (see Meridian). For some speakers they offer DSP based XOs, similar to what Procella, JBL/Synthesis and other manufacturers offer. Whether the digital XO is in the processor or amp doesn't matter as long as you don't run into trouble with extremely long analogue cable runs and still have enough analogue outputs on the processor after the XO (usually 2 or 3 outputs needed per channel).
 

StephanG

Active Member
Check out this mid-level digital Adam S3V
I generally agree with your recommendation, at least in certain cases. The problem with Adam is, they're butt-ugly and not suitable for a living room. And for HT installations, they lack "flat" surround and ceiling speakers. And their directivity is pretty bad. For HT, especially with multiple seats/rows, I'd go for a wider dispersion. None of this is an issue in the application for which they were build, studio monitoring.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
I generally agree with your recommendation, at least in certain cases. The problem with Adam is, they're butt-ugly and not suitable for a living room. And for HT installations, they lack "flat" surround and ceiling speakers. And their directivity is pretty bad. For HT, especially with multiple seats/rows, I'd go for a wider dispersion. None of this is an issue in the application for which they were build, studio monitoring.
Yes of course not "optimal", but I'm not really sure if the directivity is too narrow with their mid-field and main-monitors, even for HT applications.. Perhaps as surrounds yes, unless you like the more directional Auro3D config, like I do... But in terms of performance/price of a fully active digital monitor compared with a typical passive 2000EUR hifi-speaker, even excluding the added amplification? Yes my older S5X main monitors are butt-ugly boxy beasts but the new S2, S3 and S5 are not more ugly than the M&K range IMHO :) But no discrete In-wall, that's true. BTW, Alcons must win the price for most ugly? But I am sure they can deliver PLENTY of good sound, especially these cute babies CR4 - Alcons Audio :cool:
 
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Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I’ve just come across this comparing RoomPerfect and DIRAC.

The writer goes on to say “I’ve never seen anything so clean down to 10hz.

I can confirm again by listening, that room correction done in the time domain is far far better than just amplitude response, there is no doubt in my mind now that RP takes the lead for room correction. I have not seen any EQ programme that can correct the timing response of the bass that well down to 10hz without altering SPLs.

Here is the link Lyngdorf thread

Dirac v RoomPerfect.jpg
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Icopalermo - The X10 is a fab sub, so placed at the front of the room between your main speakers I’d suggest trying a 100Hz crossover between the main speakers and the sub.

When you drop in a second X10 and place them in both front corners of the room you’ll hear a huge improvement with genuine stereo bass and the optimal timing that only this position in the room can provide.

I’d then try higher crossovers from 150-200Hz between the main speakers and the subs and I’m sure you’ll be a happy camper.
 

Steve356

Well-known Member
I’ve just come across this comparing RoomPerfect and DIRAC.

The writer goes on to say “I’ve never seen anything so clean down to 10hz.

I can confirm again by listening, that room correction done in the time domain is far far better than just amplitude response, there is no doubt in my mind now that RP takes the lead for room correction. I have not seen any EQ programme that can correct the timing response of the bass that well down to 10hz without altering SPLs.

Here is the link Lyngdorf thread

View attachment 1227425
Similar to the results I got when I had the 3400 on loan to compare with my Arcam. I don't have the REW graphs any more, but recall the results, which listening tests confirmed.
 

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