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Lyngdorf discussion thread.

BassMojo

Standard Member
I unfortunately missed out on an MP-50 sale recently, and have been doing a lot of reading on it since with a view to buying a used mp50 or even an MP60.

Setting the mp50 video performance to one side, I note the comments about the incredibly detailed sound and the very silent noise floor...all of which sounds most appealing. the mp50 spec states an impressive 120db Signal/noise ratio BUT this is with 5v RMS signal output, which is approx 12db to high for most (quality) 1-1.5v rms power amps, except of course for the Lyngdorf range.

introducing output attenuators seems to compromise the holy grail s/n promised Likely down to the more usual 106db of the anthem etc.

So, I wonder if the MP50/60 offers the same audio performce with power amps, other than Lyngdorf own ow gain Amos which match the high input voltage of the mp50 output?...or do you need to buy in to the whole chain?
Your post prompted me to call the manufacture of the amplifiers that I own (ATI [1.9v RMS]). They suggested that I shouldn't have any issues, although if pushed really high, the MP-60 could clip the amps. I am not too concerned as the amps are powerful and my speakers are highly efficient. They can easily make my ears bleed. My typical listening levels are -15-20. I determined that there is no need for me to modify anything.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Any idea where that setting is ? Can't see anything in Audirvana preferences . . .
preferences->audio system->(memory setting at the bottom)
If that does not work and you also get dropouts from a local storage you must have some wifi-issue since the bandwidth should be plenty on any modern wifi router with decent signal strength.
 
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burtonpark

Well-known Member
It's 2.0b and where did you hear this?

Not sure what all this voltage output stuff is. But I use Lyngdorf 2vrms and Anthem 1.5vrms with zero issue. It'll work with all standard power amps as it should.
thanks for pointing out the SDA2400 input sensitivity is stated as 2vrms not 5vrms, and that both your amps work similarity and there are no ‘real world‘ problems. The quoted Anthem sensitivity of 1.5vrms is for the single ended inputs, the equivalent for the balanced inputs would be double the voltage at 3vrms, therefore I expect the 2vrms quoted for the sda2400 relates to the single ended input and that the differential input is 4vrms, as the mp50 they may have quoted the 5vrms as a differential output only as it does not have single ended outputs...although a bit sloppy (as they should have added differential, it’s the only thing that now makes sense to me. if that’s the case the MP50 is best matched to a 2.5vrms amp, so whilst still a bit high ...not as much of a problem as the specs may suggest.
It is clear that the Lyngdorf output is a BIT on the high side to perfectly match the 1-1.5V input sensitivity of many poweramps. But that is not to say that Lyngdorf is at fault. But nevertheless it will result in a fair bit of digital attenuation in the MP-50 and a slightly higher noise floor than strictly optimal. It is a shame that not more power-amps provide different gain settings but several do and that is a good thing. All of mine do so I am in luck ;-) Also many high-end DACs can be configured to output similar or even a lot higher output voltages, including my dCS, and I use the 6V balanced output setting, thus requiring very little/zero gain in my preamp/input buffer for enough power for "loud" speaker SPL. If you check that previous article I referred to (Review and Measurements of Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier), you will notice that they discuss gain matching a fair bit and also measure the impact of that on SNR. I will not claim to understand all the possible tradeoffs and implications, other than stating that it is important to consider gain structure in a chain of digital and analog components, and I always had good results with having high output voltages just after the DAC... just like the MP-50 does... as long as the amp can handle it;-)

However, you should also consider that RoomPerfect (or any RC) will also attenuate the internal signal in the digital domain, to provide sufficient headroom for correction filters (at least -6dB, perhaps more). So I doubt the MP-50 in practice will ever output 5V rms, which I assume is for a full-scale 0dBFS signal, which the DAC will never see with RP activated, even at full volume. So as a compromise, I would *guess* that amps with an input sensitivity of perhaps 2V for full power should be a good match with the MP-50.

I have not experimented a lot with this, other than reducing the input sensitivity of my active speakers to match "reasonably well" with the MP-50 output, and then I left it at that; I also think you must have a VERY quiet room for this whole discussion to become more than a theoretical issue except for cases of fairly extreme gain mismatch. I still think this is something Lyngdorf should give some recommendations on...
thanks for your detailed post, hopefully my guess that the mp50 output is quoted as a differential voltage is correct, but your comments are all helpful.

No, the attenuators reduce the noise and signal equally, as they are both voltages.
suggest you do a bit more research.
Your post prompted me to call the manufacture of the amplifiers that I own (ATI [1.9v RMS]). They suggested that I shouldn't have any issues, although if pushed really high, the MP-60 could clip the amps. I am not too concerned as the amps are powerful and my speakers are highly efficient. They can easily make my ears bleed. My typical listening levels are -15-20. I determined that there is no need for me to modify anything.
sorry for the mild scare!, you can always turn the volume down but to ensure the full dynamic range is in play and preserve the full signal to noise ratio these things matter!
 

burtonpark

Well-known Member
I lost faith in Lyngdorf's HDMI upgrade program for the MP50. My dealer could not get any confirmed time period from Lyngdorf on when it would be scheduled in. So, although it's a lot more expensive than the promised HDMI board upgrade I've made a deal with my hifi dealer and I'm going to trade up to an MP60.

I have no real use for the 16 channels (only max. 9) but I really wanted the new HDMI board to be future proof and also wanted to be on their latest platform. Bloody expensive hobby this is ;)
Ouch
 

burtonpark

Well-known Member
You disagree that attenuation applies to both signal and noise?
If you attenuate a signal and then re-amplify it, the resultant output signal will have more noise than if you had not attenuated it in the first place and applied less gain to the final stage. any input noise is always amplified (together with the signal) by the amplifier gain.

not to mention the Potential for impedance mismatch and extra resistor noise
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
thanks for your detailed post, hopefully my guess that the mp50 output is quoted as a differential voltage is correct, but your comments are all helpful.
Yes you are probably right. I hope ;-) So yes, in that case, even less of a problem! But as a slight side issue, this made me wonder about the amount of digital attenuation the MP-50 applies to achieve the target "SPL reference level" in RP, depending on the amp sensitivity (and speaker sensitivity). It should be investigated if I can figure out how.
 
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burtonpark

Well-known Member
Yes you are probably right. I hope ;-) So yes, in that case, even less of a problem! But as a slight side issue, this made me wonder about the amount of digital attenuation the MP-50 applies to achieve the target "SPL reference level" in RP, depending on the amp sensitivity (and speaker sensitivity). It should be investigated if I can figure out how.
At 5/1.5 that was a major concern I had too, as if your unable to ‘use‘ the upper part of the volume ladder the max volume will be reached far to quickly, this effects the fineness of the volume control, but also potentially the achievable overall dynamic range would all suffer, especially if the output DACs are used to implement volume, as in effect they are losing bit depth due to a mismatch on the power amp gain.
 

nkatz

Active Member
If you attenuate a signal and then re-amplify it, the resultant output signal will have more noise than if you had not attenuated it in the first place and applied less gain to the final stage. any input noise is always amplified (together with the signal) by the amplifier gain.

That doesn't apply here, as the context of the discussion was reducing the MP-50's high output voltage.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
It all seems a bit underwhelming when I've seen these run above reference without anything exploding or excessive clipping - one would think that all of this in the real world application is not important, no?

But what is I guess important is @burtonpark , where did you hear this rumour regarding the HDMI board. I just can't imagine it being a real thing, especially given the length of time they have been working on it and having to move to a new supplier.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
It all seems a bit underwhelming when I've seen these run above reference without anything exploding or excessive clipping - one would think that all of this in the real world application is not important, no?
Agree, in most normal circumstances I think it will be a non-issue and nothing to worry about:) However, for the few who have reported noise, gain mismatch is a possible reason. I do remember @stjernholm having trouble with noise and adding attenuators before his NAD m27 mch amp (1.3V sensitivity). In his review he stated that the MP-50 was 24dB "too hot" (not sure in reference to what, it sounds too high)... https://www.avforums.com/attachments/review-lyngdorf-mp-50_biojensen_dec18_eng-pdf.1111505/ It has never been a problem in my system but I will try varying the amp gain in my Adams to the extremes (-20dB to +8dB, currently at -4dB) once I have some spare time and see what happens ;-)
As a more extreme example: I can imagine there would be some noise issues if I tried to match my MP-50 (5V out) with a 300W amp (with fixed 1V input sensitivity) with my Westminsters ([email protected])... (unless you actually want to listen @123dB SPL with the volume at 10am) :confused:
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Lyngdorf Service said:
Flemming Smith added:

Hi
the program has indeed started - but we take them in at a steady pace, so we keep the turn-around on a single week

Best regards
Flemming Smith
Product Specialist
Steinway Lyngdorf
So, for all you MP50 owners there is an upgrade program alive and well. Also
DTS:X PRO depends on DTS releasing the decoding software together with Analog Devices for the SHARC's - early 2020 is my best bet.
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
DTS:X Pro is for the MP60 only.

I'll find out more, but the MP60 is not just extra channels and a board. I'm pretty sure the DSP board and something else gets changed as well - I know this because they looked at a 16ch upgrade not long after the MP50 was released and it wasn't possible.

Or so the lore goes.... But the 8ch amp last Feb is what tipped the hat for a 16ch processor, I called it soon after that.
 

anjan

Active Member
Just re-asking a question I'd got an answer to previously. Connecting the TDAI3400 to an Anthem AV Amp so that the 3400 drives lt and rt fronts and subs and the Anthem drives the rest:
- Rob replied with a helpful post here
- I used this setup initially with 3 subs, the third sub connected to the Anthem
- After a visit from the 'guru', we figured out that bass was not coming out of the front lt and rt subs, just the third sub
- I ended up selling the third sub
- on trying this arrangement again with just two subs recently (both connected to the 3400) the opening of Blade Runner 2049 sounded awesome
- however, in other movies and TV shows, the bass sounds thin

The Anthem does not have a setting to set speakers to 'large' or 'small'
Instead, there is a bass management menu with options for 'subwoofer LPF for LFE' (set to 'bypass') and speaker crossovers (set to 'off').

Three questions:
1. Is the reason this sounds like it is working for Blade Runner 2049 due to the LFE channel working properly?
2. Is the reason it sounds thin for other media due to it not working properly for the speaker crossovers as opposed to LFE?
3. If so, how do I fix this?

IMG_1408.jpg
IMG_1409.jpg
 

burtonpark

Well-known Member
Agree, in most normal circumstances I think it will be a non-issue and nothing to worry about:) However, for the few who have reported noise, gain mismatch is a possible reason. I do remember @stjernholm having trouble with noise and adding attenuators before his NAD m27 mch amp (1.3V sensitivity). In his review he stated that the MP-50 was 24dB "too hot" (not sure in reference to what, it sounds too high)... https://www.avforums.com/attachments/review-lyngdorf-mp-50_biojensen_dec18_eng-pdf.1111505/ It has never been a problem in my system but I will try varying the amp gain in my Adams to the extremes (-20dB to +8dB, currently at -4dB) once I have some spare time and see what happens ;-)
As a more extreme example: I can imagine there would be some noise issues if I tried to match my MP-50 (5V out) with a 300W amp (with fixed 1V input sensitivity) with my Westminsters ([email protected])... (unless you actually want to listen @123dB SPL with the volume at 10am) :confused:
OK, my hopes its a documentation error seem disproven by that, the url clarifies the situation from a clearly professional owner and coincentally like him I was lucky enough to own the denon avpa1hd/poaA1 combo in a treated cinema room, and now strive to acheive that holy grail again, ———hence my interest in the mp50/60

At 24db HOT that’s 4:1 greater than normal spec which is a bad match for most power amps, and attenuation and/or gain control will be needed.

The primary reason Lyngdorf would do this is that in general the signal-noise ratio is highly dependent on the specified voltage output level, as the noise and linearity gets better as the signal increase, so if you want to quote a superior signal/noise just increase the voltage game 24db.

This is top of the range AV gear, so IMO lynddorf specs, schematics, and user guides should be be more transparent, rather than leaving owners guessing What’s going on....

Though I truly believe the mp50/6- sound super....but this is all about squeezing the last juice, in my mind tns is `NOT‘ leaving any performance on the table through misunderstanding of key issues.

off to supper, now, more to add in the system gain issue, hopefully later.
 
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burtonpark

Well-known Member
It all seems a bit underwhelming when I've seen these run above reference without anything exploding or excessive clipping - one would think that all of this in the real world application is not important, no?

But what is I guess important is @burtonpark , where did you hear this rumour regarding the HDMI board. I just can't imagine it being a real thing, especially given the length of time they have been working on it and having to move to a new supplier.
Audio performance is discussion ongoing? Read a lot quickly so Not suRe where I first saw the comment/rumour, but when I did the mp50 upgrade was front and center on the Lyngdorf website and now now its buried,

for Me the important issue is whether a MP-50 is available should I want one? as an altitude 16 is now lower priced than an mp60
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
I'm a little confused about the MP-50 attenuator discussion. I think I get the gist of it, but isn't this solved by changing channel gain? I don't have an MP-50 myself, but this is what is said by Marc Alexander in the MP-50 thread at avsforum. Is he wrong?

Alternatively - I am more confused than I realize.

Marc Alexanders comment on this issue at avsforum
Analog gain mismatch is not solved by adjusting the output signal in the digital domain: As a result of the RP calibration, and according to Lyngdorf email correspondence, the "channel gain" in the MP-50/60 will just attenuate (= right shift bits(*)) in the digital domain, which in turn means that the DAC will never see 0dbFS signals, so the analog output stage will output less than the maximum 5V rms. The amount of digital attenuation required depends on the input sensitivity of the amp and the efficiency of the speakers, to reach the target reference SPL level determined during calibration. It is correct that this digital "gain" adjustment will result in that the poweramps will not be overdriven, as Marc states, because in the extreme cases, the maximum of 20dB digital attenuation means that it will output 0.5V only.

But at the same time, SNR will no longer reach the specified theoretical 120dB in this case because the noise floor has not changed (much), only the signal has been lowered. That's why the analog gain matching becomes important. In the extreme cases, external attenuators could be a solution. That said, many high-end DACs with digital volume controls solve this in better way by having variable analog output gain, for example my dCS: 0.2V, 0.6V, 2V, 6V settings. I wonder why Lyngdorf did not provide such adjustable analog output gain for such a high end product. Another way is to get a power amp with adjustable input sensitivity/gain, for example the NAD M22.2 has three settings, my old Electrocompaniet has variable input sensitivity, same with my Adam active speakers (-20dB to +8dB in steps of 4dB)..

I would not say that this is a Lyngdorf specific problem: gain (and impedance) matching has always been important in any setup. That's why it may be an advantage to choose components from the same manufacturer if you do not want to worry about all this. My ASR amp has both variable gain and selectable input impedance via dip-switches. I love that flexibility but it does complicate things :)

Also, whether any of this matters in practice, in a typical listening environment with already 40-50dB SPL background noise, is a different discussion (try to do a hearing test with speakers in a normal listening environment - for all of us the results will indicate that you may need a hearing aid; because of the background noise you will not be able to pick up puretones at 10dB or even 30dB HL :)).

(*) note that digital attenuation down to -24dB on a 24-bit word length will have NO impact on the actual resolution as it shifts bits below the noise floor (144dB-120dB).

<Edited and expanded for some extra level of detail and nerdiness. I will say no more about the topic>
 
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stjernholm

Active Member
Your too good.

Love it.
as arisholm wrote, the attenuators for proper operating levels with most poweramps, since Lyngdorf uses the highest professional gain standard. What you are hearing, is 30 db of ekstra gain, that lifts the supposedly “dead silent” background noise up to where you can hear it. When the attenuators you solve the problem, and can have a way to adapt do any poweramp in the future if you choose a attenuator model with variable gain steps.

I got mine from monacor.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
More REW today with the MP60, using a higher x-over (100hz) this time with the subs time aligned. I'm reckoning on everything being and working as should be.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi Anjan

When you are using a TDAi2170 or TDAi3400 in a surround system, the set up for best results depends on lots of variables.

In 99% of cases, systems will include one or two very powerful subs and speakers that can’t play to 20Hz +/- 3db. If your system isn’t like this, please drop me an email, if it is, I’d do the following.
If you are using a single sub, tell the TDA your stereo speakers play 80Hz and above and redirect the bass below 80Hz to the sub.

If you are using a pair of identical subs, place them in both front corners of the room and use the same 80Hz crossover, this time telling the TDA you have two subs. This makes a huge difference to quality because you will now have stereo bass with the bass from the left channel only coming from the left sub and vice versa.

When you play surround information this will work too, because the bass intended for say the left surround channel will be redirected to the front left speaker by your Receiver. The TDA will then redirect this to your left sub. Lyngdorfs approach to bass management and the way RoomPerfect measures and corrects the combined response of the left speakers to the left subs is one of their biggest benefits. Most people find stereo bass addictive when you have lived with it for a while.

When running RoomPerfect, its essential that you pay attention to the time alignment. Sit in the MLP with a laser guide – its best to put the back of it on your chin- and measure to the tweeter on your speakers and make a note. Now measure to the corner behind the sub where it meets the wall.
In the sub, turn off, or bypass any crossover and EQ in the sub. Set phase to zero and volume level to middle. Now add the delay that the electronics in the sub adds to the signal, for example with an MK X Series– without low pass filter its 68cm, with low pass filter its 119cm, with the V series its 170cm. You must have this information from you sub manufacturer.

Now enter these distances and run RoomPerfect. Before listening just double check the sub are both running. You should now have excellent sound. Test with a variety or diverse stereo content.

You may find the overall bass level a little lower than you are used to, but you should definitely hear more detail in the music. If you find the overall sound too thin, you can go into the TDA and increase the level to analogue output of the subs a little. Try adding up to 3db to both subs.

DO NOT MOVE ON TO SURROUND SOUND UNTIL STEREO PERFORMANCE IS SPOT ON!!!

If things don’t sound right, please let me know giving a full kit list and photos of the room. There are several subs I have heard recently that get great reviews and that have an obvious resonance that muddies the mid bass. You are more likely to pick up on this with stereo content. Until this is fixed, there’s not much point adding surround to the mix.

If you do have great subs, you can then try raising the crossover point between the speakers and subs. With MK X Series subs raising the crossover to 100/120/150 can transform a system but this is because they aren’t designed for maximum bang at the lowest price but the most even, neutral sound for use in studios etc.

Assuming the stereo sounds terrific, you then tell your Receiver you have full range front speakers and the rest are all satellites. If the bass management in the Receiver is “normal”, you should be good to go.
 

hestepare

Active Member
I have all speaker/sub crossovers at 100Hz even with very powerful front and center speakers. Sounds best that way in my room, as it reduces a disturbing dip at 70Hz ... and anyway, even with big front speakers, the subs are more capable than the mains at <100Hz... But I set the subs' "lowpass cutoff frequency" to 200Hz. The main benefit of that is that then RP corrects the subs all the way up to 200Hz, and as a result the subs will blend even better with the main speakers, even with a speaker/sub crossover at 100Hz (note that these are not brick-wall filters, I think they are 12dB/octave in the MP-50 at least). But of course you should not set the sub cutoff higher than what your subs are capable of reproducing, but no need to put it (much) lower either, so in my case 200Hz is pretty good...
I tried this! I set high pass to 100 Hz and low pass to 200 Hz, set delays according to 100 Hz, 4th order LR (24 dB/octave, no real thought behind that) and ran RP. Bass sounds much more integrated at all volumes and a lot more dynamic. Best sounding setup so far!

Edit: 2.1 setup, Tdai-2170, B&W CM8 s2 + DB4S
 
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anjan

Active Member
Cheers Rob

Music sounds absolutely stellar through the system. It's IW300s with MK X10s positioned as you suggested. The crossover is set to 150.

Last night, I tried playing a bunch of other AV stuff and it sounded very good. So I'm not convinced there's a real problem.

For the AV amp, what is the difference between setting just the Front Lt and Rt Speakers to 'large' vs setting all the speakers to 'large'? Does it make a difference if the other speakers are set to large or small? One of the theoretical issues about just setting the front speakers to large is that all the tracks in a blu-ray file may have low frequency sounds that directly-connected sub(s) handle. However, with just front lt/rt pre-outs connected and no directly AV-connected subs, it seems to me that the subs connected to the 3400 cannot handle the bass for the other speakers.
 

stjernholm

Active Member

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