Lyngdorf discussion thread.

arisholm

Well-known Member
A TDAI 1120, oh boy that would mean they would go even smaller with smaller speakers and subs. Not something I'm interested in. Also, the naming is a bit odd since it would refer to a integrated amp with 1 x 120W. Or maybe Lyngdorf goes for active speakers with integrated RP.
Not necessarily a bad thing if you are like me and consider using it mainly as a digital preamp with RP and bass management, interested to know more ;-)
 

BassMojo

Standard Member
I completed my first MP-60 calibration yesterday and have been listening to some 2-Ch music (2.2). This is a nice pre pro, and keeps growing on me with each song that I hear. My first impression is that I am hearing greater micro details over my previous pre pro. There seems to be more air around the instruments and increased dialog clarity if you will. Almost like Rodrigo Y Gabriella are performing in my room in front of me if I close my eyes and take it in. I am really liking what I am hearing so far. This weekend, I hope to get into some UHD Atmos movies and run it through its paces. Hopefully more next week...
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Congrats! :cool: Sorry if I can't remember, what pre-pro did you have before? EDIT: Ah, found it, Anthem ;-)
 

BassMojo

Standard Member
I previously used an Anthem AMV60 in my 7.2.4 setup. It was good for movies, but just okay (IMO) for music. So far, the MP-60 is a big step up.

@arisholm , would you mind messaging me your MP-50 setup guide that you previously posted for some added fine tuning? I looked back through 10-15 pages and cannot seem to locate it. Thanks in advance.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
I previously used an Anthem AMV60 in my 7.2.4 setup. It was good for movies, but just okay (IMO) for music. So far, the MP-60 is a big step up.

@arisholm , would you mind messaging me your MP-50 setup guide that you previously posted for some added fine tuning? I looked back through 10-15 pages and cannot seem to locate it. Thanks in advance.
Yes I think my MP-50 works very well on music for sure and the MP-60 cannot be worse I assume :)
Regarding the "guide": after having helped out tweaking quite a few systems lately I realise that my almost one year old recommendations were a bit naive, I thought the experiences with my own systems were applicable "in general", but as it turns out - not really, e.g. depending on the room and reflections, woofer vs tweeter time alignment in your speakers, etc ;-) I think it is quite difficult to make a general recipe as I seem to discover new things that must be "dealt with" each time... But at a very general level:
(1) Find the initial time/distance setting of the sub first, meaning a relative delay such that the sub starts moving air about the same time as the lower frequencies of your woofers in your speakers.
(2) Then tweak the delay of the subs in small increments (usually, but not always, into longer distance settings on the sub) to make the phase overlap optimally in the crossover region.
The question is how you do those points in the most reliable way... my current favourite is to look at the "Excess group delay" for the subs vs mains in REW to determine a starting point for the delay (theory: Minimum Phase), another way is the acoustic timing reference but it is less reliable because tweeters are inherently a LOT faster than woofers (depending on the speakers), the third is to start with a distance corresponding to the rear of the subs (the simplest but the least accurate way). And then, vary a few ms around that starting point to find the best match in terms of phase at the crossover... and as I said, typically, you would want to delay the speakers a bit more from that initial starting point, so in other words, increase the distance setting of the subs incrementally in say 30cm increments until you get the highest SPL in the crossover region (e.g., 60-120Hz for a XO at 100Hz). That is often a "very good" distance setting..

cheers
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
Wouldn't measuring the impulse response be the most direct way to measure timing between main and subs?
No :) It is a good way to time align several subs with about the same bandwidth, and all the information needed is of course in the impulse response, but it is not an intuitive way to time+phase align subs and speakers. IMHO. Or if it is (except for using the timing reference and the initial rise of the impulse response as an initial timing correction; a second best method), I haven't figured it out yet...
But maybe this needs to be in another thread before someone hits me (us) with a hammer ;-)
 
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orange55

Well-known Member
I previously used an Anthem AMV60 in my 7.2.4 setup. It was good for movies, but just okay (IMO) for music. So far, the MP-60 is a big step up.
I found this when auditioning the MP-50. Music is a priority for me, although closely followed by every source should sound amazing.

One tip I would give is ensuring your get RoomPerfect to 100% and then check the levels on all channels are equal. Personally just 1db adjustment really brings the sound stage together.

Enjoy.
 

nkatz

Active Member

Why not?

It seems like a lot of fussing and trial and error is required with your other described methods.

By looking at impulse response in real time, you just adjust delay to get the (low freq portions) of the responses to line up.

And you can't be whole cycles off.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Why not?

It seems like a lot of fussing and trial and error is required with your other described methods.

By looking at impulse response in real time, you just adjust delay to get the (low freq portions) of the responses to line up.

And you can't be whole cycles off.
It is fairly systematic but yes a few parameters to consider. It is both delay and phase. But OK then I just don't know how to do that, I don't see how you can "line up" the impulse responses between a speaker and a sub with such different bandwidths to get both timing and phase correct, please tell me how and I will certainly try it :) If you mean to align the initial rise of the impulse, or the peak impulse, that is clearly not good enough.
 
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nkatz

Active Member
I know nothing about the workings of REW, and I haven't done impulse response with my OmniMic yet, but I believe it will send out a repeating sequence of impulses, and I can see the sound emitted from the speakers in real time on my computer screen.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
And how will that help you align the phase between the sub and the speaker at the crossover frequency? Anyway, I will stop now as we are way off topic, but please send me a PM and we can work it out and maybe we can find the ultimate method, which I clearly have not found yet ;-)
 
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nkatz

Active Member
And how will that help you align the phase between the sub and the speaker at the crossover frequency?

As I said, by getting the low freq "humpy" portions of the responses to line up.

But I guess that would be hard to do with any precision, so maybe this would only be good to ascertain that you're not off by whole cycles.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
As I said, by getting the low freq "humpy" portions of the responses to line up.

But I guess that would be hard to do with any precision, so maybe this would only be good to ascertain that you're not off by whole cycles.
Yes, it is useful for that, that is what I defined as "step 1" in my oversimplistic "method", but as you say that is not enough to get it dead on :)
 

nkatz

Active Member
Yes, it is useful for that, that is what I defined as "step 1" in my oversimplistic "method", but as you say that is not enough to get it dead on :)
"(1) Find the initial time/distance setting of the sub first, meaning a relative delay such that the sub starts moving air about the same time as the lower frequencies of your woofers in your speakers."

Yes, that says what to do, but not how to do it.
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
"(1) Find the initial time/distance setting of the sub first, meaning a relative delay such that the sub starts moving air about the same time as the lower frequencies of your woofers in your speakers."

Yes, that says what to do, but not how to do it.
And that is why I said:
"The question is how you do those points in the most reliable way... my current favourite is to look at the "Excess group delay" for the subs vs mains in REW to determine a starting point for the delay (theory: Minimum Phase), another way is the acoustic timing reference but it is less reliable because tweeters are inherently a LOT faster than woofers (depending on the speakers), the third is to start with a distance corresponding to the rear of the subs (the simplest but the least accurate way). "
- using the acoustic timing reference is to look at the (initial rise of the) impulse response.
But check out that link in there, it was a good read for me at least.
 
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nkatz

Active Member
Oops, you sure did say how; my apologies.

I was speed-reading the first time I read it, and just cut/pasted the highlight w/o reading further.
 

BassMojo

Standard Member
One tip I would give is ensuring your get RoomPerfect to 100% and then check the levels on all channels are equal. Personally just 1db adjustment really brings the sound stage together.
With only eight measurements, I was able to achieve 99% Room Knowledge. Maybe I will recalibrate again after the weekend to get to 100%. When I check the gains, all channels appear to be at 0.0 in Bypass, Global and Focus 1. Does this sound correct?
 
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Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
If anyone does find a simple way of perfectly time aligning subs, please post it here.

One of the biggest benefits of Lyngdorf TDA amplifiers and their surround Processors is their unique take on bass management. Every Receiver with Dolby Surround has bass management as it’s an incredibly useful tool for creating the best sound.

Bass management splits the low frequencies from the other sounds. This is helpful because reproducing bass at say 30Hz is something that 99% of speaker can’t do. A sub with a big driver, in a big box and a very powerful amp can. Bass management sends the bass to the sub while only higher frequencies are reproduced by your main amp and speakers. This makes for cleaner clearer sound and gives the system a lot more headroom so it can play much louder without distorting.

The place that the frequencies are split has traditionally been 80Hz because you cannot locate where sounds are coming from. In Lyngdorf systems I’d suggest trying much higher crossovers up to 200Hz provided a really good pair of subs can be used and placed in both front corners of the room.

The front corners of the room are the only places you can positions subs that will ensure all their output will arrive at the listener at the same time. With these locations the timing of your speakers and woofers will be optimal so that a gun shot, or snare drum will be heard as one “bang” rather than “bangangang”.

What’s unique about Lyngdorf is that when you run RoomPerfect the output or the sub or subs are measured and corrected with the speakers, not separately. This is why when calibrated the subs seem to disappear.

When stereo subs are used, all the bass from the left sub will play in conjunction with all the speakers on the left-hand side of the room.

This gives real stereo bass.

When you have lived with it for a little while you wont want to go back.
 

Seriously Ltd

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
With only eight measurements, I was able to achieve 99% Room Knowledge. Maybe I will recalibrate again after the weekend to get to 100%. When I check the gains, all channels appear to be at 0.0 in Bypass, Global and Focus 1. Does this sound correct?
Yes that’s correct. 👌
 

Ashmanuk

Well-known Member
With only eight measurements, I was able to achieve 99% Room Knowledge. Maybe I will recalibrate again after the weekend to get to 100%. When I check the gains, all channels appear to be at 0.0 in Bypass, Global and Focus 1. Does this sound correct?
You can add measurements without re-doing the whole thing I believe..
Screenshot_20191109-085557.jpg
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
With only eight measurements, I was able to achieve 99% Room Knowledge. Maybe I will recalibrate again after the weekend to get to 100%. When I check the gains, all channels appear to be at 0.0 in Bypass, Global and Focus 1. Does this sound correct?
To see the channel gain set by RP, click on the checkbox "Show RP Level" in the "channel gain" tab. Then you will see how RP has set the gain at Global vs Focus. Bypass uses the same gains as Global, at least in my setup.
 

Guldorat

Standard Member
What am I doing wrong?
I have a DPA-1, a Millennium mk3, and a Ken Kreisel active sub thats giving me a headeache.
Using the DPA-1 as preamp because I want Roomperfect. The problem Im having is that the volume control on the Millennium changes aswell when I use volume on the preamp. And the dont match up. When Im gaining 0,1 dB on the preamp I gain 0,2 on the Millenium. This wasent a problem when using only main speakers but now when Im gonna match an active sub via the DPA it is. If I raise with 1 dB on DPA-1 then I will raise output on main speakers with 2dB but only 1dB on subwoofer.
The strange thing is that when lowering volume they dont go back to same. DPA and Millennium will differ.

This is how I set it all up.
DPA-1 is Main.
Millennium is Slave.
Millennium, connected to DPA-1 via digital set as MAIN out on the DPA-1. Full scale.
Ken Kreisel sub connected to DPA-1 via LINE out (L and R), on the DPA-1. Regulated.
Crossover set at 60Hz.

I suspect i missed something on the Millennium when setting it all up, but what.
Any thoughts or suggestions what Im doing wrong will be very welcome.
 

orange55

Well-known Member
With only eight measurements, I was able to achieve 99% Room Knowledge. Maybe I will recalibrate again after the weekend to get to 100%. When I check the gains, all channels appear to be at 0.0 in Bypass, Global and Focus 1. Does this sound correct?
That is all correct. However getting to 100% will most likely take another 5 or 6 measurements. That actually a lot more information for RoomPerfect to use.

As per the post above you don’t need to start again, you can continue to add measurements. I personally found it makes a big difference in the bass.

As for levels I put need to use something like Decibel X mobile app and use the graph which shows the white straight line to compare each channel easily. You need them all the same. Even 1db makes a difference.

You can’t use the tones in the MP-60 as they bypass these controls. You need to use an external source. I use a blu ray Dolby disc which has the 5.1.4 tones.

Every little helps.
 

hestepare

Active Member
If anyone does find a simple way of perfectly time aligning subs, please post it here.
"Perfectly" is a big order but I can list my quick, non-REW approach that has served me well so far (and which is of course still under revision). I have a 2.1 system.

  1. Input accurate distances from the main listening position. From tweeters/front of the speakers, from the back wall/corner of subs.
  2. In the case of active sub(s), add the sub's electronics's delay according to the manufacturer. On top of that, add around 10 ms amp delay. The assumption is that active subs add electrical and mechanical delay in addition to electronical delay.
  3. Reduce the amp delay gradually to find the optimal setting. This can be done in two ways. I suggest using both.
    1. The first alternative is using an FFT app for your phone, so you have a visual representation to go by. Go to your favourite app store and get an FFT app with good reviews. Play pink or white noise through your system and pay attention to the dB measurement at the area around the crossover frequency. You want it to be as high as possible. It will change slightly as you change the amp delay.
    2. The second alternative, which I use after my ears get exhausted from listening to noise, is putting on some funk or bassy music. It's a good idea to use Rob's trick and compare the music from the speakers with headphones. If both sound equally groovy, the delay is probably good. If the bass sounds too phat or if it sounds like it's dragging or rushing, try adjusting a couple of ms one way or the other and listen to how the music changes character. If it drags or rushes more or less, you know what to do. When it sounds good, you're done.
  4. Run RP and listen until your ears fall off.
This approach is not as detailed as @arisholm's but it seems to work. I have only used it for a fronts+1 sub setup so I couldn't say how it should be done for multiple subs or a multi-channel setup.
 
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arisholm

Well-known Member
I like the @hestepare approach. Quite a bit simpler than what I suggest and ALMOST as good:) There is a *small* chance that you will overshoot by a whole cycle this way. But for sure the headphone comparison should enable you to detect if you missed by a whole cycle (I would think, but depending on the crossover frequency)! Also the real time spectrum analyser on a phone will not be as accurate as a windowed frequency sweep with a calibrated mike to optimize the phase further. But again probably 95% good enough and a LOT better than doing nothing :)
 
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asiano

Active Member
I'm having an odd issue with my MP-60. I get sound from all of the speakers when I select to verify speakers in the speaker setup menu (5.1.2 setup right now) and they all appear to work with HDMI sources. However, for the USB Audio In (connected to a Roon Endpoint) and Network inputs, I get no sound. When I select the USB Audio and Network inputs, the MP-60 acknowledges the input and reports the number of channels and sample rate. However, there is no sound.

I updated the firmware to 3.5.7 via their web browser app upon installation.

Any ideas on what I may be doing wrong or is there a hardware/firmware issue with my unit?
 
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asiano

Active Member
I think there's a bug in the software. I did find a workaround. I had to go to the Post Processing option for the Source, change it from None to Dolby Upmixer. At that point, it began to output sound from all channels. I then changed it back to None and two-channel began to work.
I'm having an odd issue with my MP-60. I get sound from all of the speakers when I select to verify speakers in the speaker setup menu (5.1.2 setup right now) and they all appear to work with HDMI sources. However, for the USB Audio In (connected to a Roon Endpoint) and Network inputs, I get no sound. When I select the USB Audio and Network inputs, the MP-60 acknowledges the input and reports the number of channels and sample rate. However, there is no sound.

I updated the firmware to 3.5.7 via their web browser app upon installation.

Any ideas on what I may be doing wrong or is there a hardware/firmware issue with my unit?
 

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