Discussion in 'AV Pre-Amp/Processors & Power Amps' started by alexs2, Jan 24, 2012.
For discussing all matters Lyngdorf.
Right ~ considering all this started on the Bryston users' forum, it did get rather seriously off-piste so, for those who've come here to discover how the saga is continuing, I received swift responses to my e-mails to Lyngdorf from both Denmark and from the UK distributor who, as reported, have both been very helpful.
For a start, they pointed out that the various measurement positions should be random and not symmetrical (as I'd been doing it) and that the mic should be orientated at random rather than pointed at the speakers, so those are two things on which to go back and undertake yet another set-up. But, now I'm familiar with the procedure, it's neither difficult nor time-consuming and, with every set-up, I've been getting better and better results. Now, it seems, there may well be yet further improvements to be achieved. Now that I'm getting a proper handle on what to do with it, I'm really beginning to like this thing.
You so need to pop over to http://www.geckohomecinema.com/music-roomsGecko they will really show what room perfect can do
Good to hear you've found support works, i must have done 20 setups over the last 3 years. Redone every time there's a change in speaker position or wiring and even when i put a carpet in.
Currently running 17% correction so i guess the room itself isn't as bad as anticipated, glass walls seem to be reasonably lossy for bass.
i do a matrix of measurement points to cover a 5m square listening area, not random really but consistent with keeping good separation and getting full knowledge of the relevant area.
Having achieved 98% RK with the latest set-up, I'm not sure what to expect from doing yet another with random positioning and mic orientation but, seeing as that's what's recommended by Lyngdorf themselves and Gecko, I ought to give it a go.
As there seems to be a bit of top end zinginess with a few recordings, I've experimented a little with different voicings and, although each one changes the presentation a little, I'm not yet convinced that any of them represents an improvement overall. But we'll see.
We use the voicings mostly to compensate for different sources, vinyl needs a bit of bass boost so Party 1, the computer can be flat both ends so Loudness.
Ths cdp is good and even so that's on either Neutral or sometimes Party1 if we want more bass from dance.
It's going through a Bryston / PMC system so there's loads of bass available, it just needs controlling properly.
Could your top end zinginess be a touch of clipping or distortion on a bad recording?
i thought i had real problems at one stage but a quick check through Audacity showed that the recordings were bad. This showed particularly on vocals where the recording was made at too high a volume so there was far too little headroom to fit the peaks in.
Skakira, Skunk Anansie and a Philip Glass spring to mind as examples.
I think the top end zinginess may well be due to the recordings in question being a bit brittle (it's by no means apparent on everything I play), though my benchmark is what I hear at PMC's show dems which use Bryston electronics and I usually get them to play for me a track or two on a CD-R I have with many of my favourite tracks on it.
The loan unit I have doesn't have a Party 1 voicing ~ Open, Open Air, Music 1, Music 2, Relaxed and Soft.
Still, I'll report back when I've done my next set-up in accordance with advice from Lyngdorf and Gecko.
The last set-up produced the best result yet, not least in the bass. But then, the following evening, it had gone off and now the bass is all boomy and pushy again, even though it seems to improve a bit (but only a bit) after about 20 minutes of passing signal. Gecko have concluded the unit must be faulty, so it'll have to be returned and I don't know when it or another unit may be forthcoming. Very frustrating because when it's good it's very good. In the wake of my seven year love/hate relationship with the TacT RCS and a year without room correction, I had high hopes of the RP-1 but so far this unit's been an exercise in unfulfilled expectations. Ho, hum.
Thanks Alex, for opening this thread.
Julian, I'm glad you emailed Lyngdorf, as I said they are very helpful. I'm surprised you weren't doing the mic positioning correctly. Didn't you have the written instructions? They are very clear.
My own experience is that in terms of voicing filters neutral is the best. I downloaded some of the newer ones last year and to me they all do something to the sound that initially sounds interesting. Then you realise that it's not natural, its not the way its meant to sound. Its either boosting the bass or treble.
This also means that you will be constantly fiddling from recording to recording trying to compensate. All this time you'll be concentrating on fiddling rather than enjoying the music.
If the rest of the set up is good then imho set it to neutral (NOT BYPASS) and forget about it. Some recordings will sound better than others but then that's the nature of recordings no matter what system you listen to them through.
It's a real shame that it seems you have a faulty unit, I assume you've done the obvious and checked all the connections?
Now a general point about the RP1 that I have an issue with. I'll be careful what I say so hopefully the comments don't get deleted by the mods.
Basically I'm a great believer in the RP1. It has transformed my system and whenever I go to hifi shows I never hear a system that can reproduce the sort of beautiful controlled and plentiful bass that my system has. (Obviously my huge floor standers play a massive part in this)
Many people write the RP1 off before ever having listened to it because they base their opinions on room correction devices of the past that weren't very good.
The reason they never get to hear it is because the way the distributor markets this product means its very difficult to get a demo. I think you have found this yourself. Hardly anybody stocks this product, I had great difficulty my self trying to get hold of one.
The only way I could get a home demo was to have Gecko come around my house with the device. Though this is a kind offer I felt very uncomfortable about it, as I knew that I personally might feel a little under pressure to buy if somebody has driven hundreds of miles to bring a product to me. I'm not saying for a moment that Gecko would exert this pressure, its just the way I might feel
This also means there are virtually no ex dem ones around that can be bought at a somewhat cheaper price. I think its important to have this so more people can afford to buy them and so we get more owners and then recognition of how good the product is.
Anyway, the bottom line is I wish this product was available more widely for people to listen to. It's a shame that such a great device is hardly heard in this country
To Indus ~ The reason I didn't initially use a set of random measurement positions is simply that, somehow or other, I failed to read that part of the manual, so the reason for unsatisfactory results is entirely mine. When I did do the set-up properly, the results were much better, if not absolutely right. But, as reported, it didn't last. The following morning, it was if the room correction had all but evaporated (hardly what you need with a pair of Lyngdorf W210 sub's), which led me to concur with Gecko's diagnosis that the unit must be faulty.
Gecko did ask whether or not this unit has the latest firmware installed (what, I wonder, is firmware, as opposed to software?) but, as this unit doesn't have the long lead to connect it to a PC, I wasn't able to check.
Your observations about the additional/alternative voicing filters are interesting and I'd already concluded that Neutral is the best setting. All the others sound manipulated in one way or another, even though they may do something beneficial in isolation such as smoothing off some top end edginess.
As for constantly fiddling from recording to recording trying to compensate, I went through seven years of that with the TacT RCS which, as you may know, incorporates a 12 band parametric equaliser. You can choose exactly at which 12 frequencies you set each eq. point, the width of eq. (in terms of ocatave spread) and then boost or attenuate at each of those frequency points by up to +/- 10Db in 0.1Db increments, as Peter Lyngdorf himself used to be forever doing at TacT show dem's. For that reason, I imagine, Lyngdorf (the company) decided very definitely not to include such a facility in their own RC products.
Apart from there being very few Lyngdorf dealers in the first place (interestingly, Sevenoaks Hi-Fi at certain locations appears to be amongst them), only one (to my knowledge) actually stocks the RP-1 (Audio Destination in Tiverton) and whether they'd be prepared to lend me one is moot. It took my local dealer (who's not a Lyngdorf dealer) 6 months to get hold of what appears to be Gecko's one and only loan unit (it seems to have spent an extended period on loan to someone in Madrid) and, when it finally arrived, both the RCH and a key part of the mic stand were missing, though Gecko mailed the RCH a few weeks later.
Gecko admit that the RP-1 hasn't been much of a seller (I don't know about the DPA-1, though Audio Destination are advertising their stock unit at £2,500), which is why they virtually never crop up on the used/ex-dem market. Choice Hi-Fi briefly had one for £1,200 (I believe the owner upgraded to a DPA-1) but that went very quickly, well before I went looking for one.
That aside, my preference for an RP-1 as opposed to a DPA-1 stems from the fact that my ambition is for an all Bryston (& PMC) system as a benchmark, so I can hear exactly what the insertion of RoomPerfect is doing and, if I don't like it for some reason or other, I won't be stuck without a D:AC and pre-amp. At the moment, I'm back with the system as it was sans RP-1, in 2 channel mode and, although the bass isn't as crisp and authoritative as I might wish it to be (for all its other failings, the TacT certainly got things right in that department), it's acceptable and I can still listen to music.
I'm still hopeful that the RP-1 will deliver what's been reported in all the reviews I've read and I agree that it's a shame that the less than satisfactory performances of most of the early RC systems have perhaps compromised the market place for the good ones. Dealer apathy has also played a part (an earlier post suggests that a surprisingly large number of people who work in hi-fi shops aren't actually much into hi-fi ~ they're just box shifters), whilst I imagine that very few prospective purchasers are likely to be wowed by the benefits of RC by anything other than a home trial. That means the dealer will probably need to spend an hour or two installing the unit and setting it up, probably of an evening, as well as travelling to do so. And, on top of all that, for a unit that isn't a core system component (source/amp/speakers) and which does only one thing (albeit, for some people, a potentially very valuable thing) the RP-1 is hardly inexpensive at £2,800. Even I've wondered why it costs £2,800 instead of, say, £1,800, given that the DPA-1 is only about £3,600. And you can't really (effectively) dem RC at shows either because the fundamental acoustics of the dem room vary significantly according to how many people are in there at any give time. If the demonstrator says to his audience "And this is how the system sounds without RC....", there's bound to be the suspicion that the system doesn't sound very good to begin with and that it has to have RC to sound half decent.
Plus, of course, with more and more people these days opting for all-singing, all-dancing home theatre receivers that do 2 channel, 2+2, 5.1 or 7.1 with RC (most commonly the Audyssey system, I believe) built in, all for upwards of not much more than a grand, it's not hard to see why the market for something like the RP-1 is pretty rareified. Also, you can download RC programs off the InterNet for very little money.
My dealer's just called round to collect the unit and, somewhat to my surprise, he considers that it compromises transparency, despite admitting to having been as surprised as I've been that it improves the midrange. If I can get one that does what it's supposed to in the bass as well as what it does in the midrange, it'll be a dead cert buy.
But, for now, I shall just have to wait to see what Gecko come back with after the unit's been returned to Denmark for investigation. I just hope they don't report back that it's functioning perfectly and that they've been able to find nothing wrong with it. Ho, hum.
The KRK Ergo could be worth a try if you can get a demo, it uses the same system iirc but only operates below 500Hz.
Cheaper at sub £500 too.
Details will be on their website.
I looked at the KRK Ergo on amazon and it looks pretty basic (no crossover, which is a bit crucial when you're using sub's). Also, a surprise benefit of the Lyngdorf is what it does for the midrange, which really opened up, focussed better and improved the positioning of everything in the soundstage. Once I get one that does everything it's supposed to, I'll almost certainly buy one, but I'm not there yet.
I've made considerable progress this year with other parts of my system, not least by way of an ex-display Bryston D:AC at a bargain price, but also as a result of sorting out some deleterious cable issues (QED's BNC:BNC digital lead is brilliant for very little money). As a result, the bass is much better controlled, which also confers benefits higher up the frequency spectrum, so full range room correction has become a much lower priority (and I'm also now short of money to spend on any new toys).
However, I'd still like to reactivate my Lyngdorf sub's so I've been looking for a bass management unit designed just for sub's. This led me to two possible contenders, one of which (from a US firm called SV Systems) is out of production. The other, from Velodyne, ticks nearly all the right boxes, in that it's cheap (just $349), it includes a crossover (at 80Hz fixed, but that's okay), it's slim (so it'd slot comfortably into my equipment rack) and black (I'd never choose silver), it comes with an RCH, it corrects automatically at 8 frequency points but allows you to make adjustments manually if that's what you prefer, and its set-up looks to be a doddle. How good a package is that? The downside is that it offers only single-ended inputs and outputs, which is a bummer, as all my interconnects are (Van Damme) balanced (because I use Bryston amp's and now a Bryston D:AC).
So far, I've been quite unable to find any other device offering all the features of the Velodyne SMS-1 but with balanced inputs and outputs. Yet something tells me that such a unit must exist somewhere. SV Systems suggested one of the Behringer units, though I'm reluctant to pass everything above 80 Hz through anything by Behringer.
Does anyone have any ideas?
What about an RCA to XLR adapter ?
In all honesty there are only two real choices these days for sub correction. The sms1 as you mention and the antimode. Bot are cheap, antimode very cheap and does a very good job. But will require the use of an xlr to RCA adaptor as recommended by ashmanuk.
There is a balanced version of the audyssey room eq which handles sub at xt level. Also does all other channels, if you wish.
The audyssey sub eq I believe only came in RCA model. And like the Svs is discontinued.
If I was you I would pick up an antimode, new they are only about £220 for a single sub unit. Give it a try with an xlr to RCA. If you do not like the outcome then you could resell the antimode for next to no loss. Or infact, if purchased on a popular auction site the distance selling rules state that you have 7 days to return the unit for full refund. So nothing to loose really.
Failing that, with out spending mega bucks on an external room eq device I think those are your choices.
XLR to RCA adapters would remove the benefits of balanced operation, which is the mode in which the Brystons, being of studio heritage, are designed to work best, so it's not an option unless I buy a separate crossover so only the frequencies below 80 Hz would have to pass through the bass management unit. Might be an option worth exploring. Thanks for your input.
Then again, it's just occurred to me that one other possibly vital function that the Lyngdorf fulfils, like the TacT RCS, is to delay the signal to the main speakers to compensate for the fact that the sub's may well not be sited in the same plane. A bass-only management unit would be highly unlikely to cater for that. Oh well, maybe it'll have to be the expensive Lyngdorf or nothing though, in the meantime, my PMC IB2's aren't exactly lacking in the bass department.
Just a note to hopefully pull together info on the newly announced Lyndorf Amplifier.
As far as I can tell the new TDAI-2170 is the replacement for the TDAI-2200 (which I have) and includes Room Correction.
I am looking forward to seeing some detailed information and reviews.
Lyngdorf Audio - Product
Top 10 Products from CEDIA 2013
Looks like an interesting product.
We have been demonstrating the new Lyngdorf TDAi2170 amplifier for a few weeks now and would like to share some information about it.
The “basic” amplifier provides:-
· True Digital Amplification 2 x 170w- For music and TV reproduction with none of the noise and distortion found in analogue amplifiers
· RoomPerfect – optimise your speakers and reduce acoustic errors with the world’s only three dimensional room correction system
· Use as an integrated amplifier or as a pre amplifier with optional active bass management for use with single or multiple subwoofers
· Time alignment of any speaker system
· Active speaker design – allows the design of advanced speaker systems
· Voicings – tailor the sound to your personal preferences or to compensate for poor recordings
· Intersample Clipping Correction (ICC™) Reduce errors from compressed recordings
As you can see, the TDA is a truly unique product and this is one of the reasons you won’t be seeing it in your local hifi store. Because the TDA gives such a huge amount of control of the design and optimisation of audio systems it’s also very possible to compromise the sound quality of a system if it isn’t properly used.
This is why where practical we like to offer home trials of the product and help with its set up where possible. If you look at RoomPerfect for example, this is automated and very simple to set up, but it does require that the microphone is moved randomly throughout the whole room. This three dimensional approach to room correction is unique to RoomPerfect and is one of the many things about it that ensures it is the highest quality room correction system available. If its set up isn’t correctly followed however, the end result will be compromised because it has been incorrectly used. As a result the listener will be unimpressed with the sound it creates.
At our last Forum meeting we showed the TDA driving an active MK X10 subwoofer and a pair of MK MP150 mk2 speakers. The rickety listening room used was chosen as it had poor acoustics. The idea being that if the room correction could work here it would work in any room.
It’s fair to say everyone was impressed and it was interesting that considering the listeners visited us largely to hear our home cinemas, a huge amount of time was spent listening to this music system.
Currently the amplifier is out of stock but we hope to have more stock arriving at the end of April when we will start to offer home trials of the product.
The TDA is a unique product and we hope you realise why we want to help listeners with its set up – so you can enjoy the full potential benefits it brings to your audio system. We hope that as awareness of it grows we may find some specialist retailers who will start to make hearing it near you more convenient until, then please let me know if you have any question about it or would like to arrange a demonstration.
RoomPerfect is obviously one of the key attractions of the TDAi2170. While I’m a fan of room correction in general (if correctly used), RoomPerfect really is very different from any other system on the market.
One obvious difference is that RoomPerfect was developed for use in the highest quality music system whereas other alternatives were designed for use in home cinemas.
When its patent was filed in 2007, it was covered by one of the most extensive patents in audio history. With over 50 elements covering the 41 different measures it takes in to account in its correction process. Here is a little about it.
· The only automated room correction system developed for audiophile stereo applications
· Unique in performing a 3 dimensional analysis of the entire room, not just the listening positions
· The only system that derives information beyond the rooms’ acoustic properties, including:-
· Power response throughout the room
· Loudspeaker directivity
· High frequency roll-off
· Characteristics of low frequency roll-off
· A unique measurement approach measures only those frequencies that need correcting. This dramatically increases the resolution of the measurements taken
· 1/12 band correction is used - the highest resolution of any system of this type - as this is the level of resolution that is necessary for accurate correction.
An A/B dem of the Global mode from an adjoing room is often very revealing. You can even try listening to a good speaker system calibrated with RoomPerfect from the next room. It should sound like the difference between live music and a loudspeaker playing from next door!
As RoomPerfect will have a very different effect in every room it is used in, we hope that the feedback from people having home trials will soon start to appear here.
Enclosed is the 2009 document from Lyngdorf about RoomPerfect.
The benefits explained in the previous post by Rob are great, I think when you hear it and see RoomPerfect being set up it will give you a better understanding of just how powerful RoomPerfect is and very unique, and it's incredible quick too, it will only take around 15 minutes to run RoomPerfect and tune the system to the room.
For me the flexibility that it gives one when positioning speakers (and subwoofers) really does make it very unique, if it is being used with floor standing speakers for example simply moving the speakers closer to the front wall will result in better, more time aligned bass response, due to getting the direct and reflected sound to the listening position at the same time.
Add to that the ability to add one or two subwoofers into the system and input the crossover points between speakers and subs for a seamless blend is again very useful and I'm not aware of any other stereo amplifier that gives these options, you can even use active front speakers with the TDAI-2170.
Having heard it in various different configurations now it really does seem to be the perfect all rounder...
Is there anything to prevent using four of these to create effectively a 7.1 (or even 8.4 ) system?
It is something we have toyed around with trying......
There's no reason you couldn't add as many TDA amps as you want on to any surround system. Obviously using it to upgrade the main stereo pair and the woofers will provide the biggest bang for the buck but the more the merrier....
Home demo's are proving the way forward for the lyngdorf TDAI2170, only once it's in situ using various speaker brands do potential buyers truly see the flexibility of this fantastic amplifier.
We have done a few home demonstrations for a couple of Ci companies over the past couple of weeks,, where the clients loves their current speakers.
Using the on board RoomPerfect room correction has enabled them to tune the system to the room without the need for any room treatment, which when you see the rooms that they are to be used in becomes totally understandable.
I'm moving home in the near future but once i have a new dwelling i'd very much like to try this amp,i loved the TDA2200 when you brought that to my house,how does the 2170 compare to the 2200 ?
Jason the new Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 is a better amplifier than the previous TDAI-2200 - it has developed on the 2200, the design looks much smarter and RoomPerfect is now fitted as standard.
What is nice about the new TDA is that there are options for a HDMI board 4in 1out, which is great for those who do not have room for a full HT set up, bit would still like to run a Bluray player of SkyHD through their stereo.
These is also a USB option for connecting a PC/Mac directly into the TDA for streaming stored music, I think this is something that you do like myself for your Mac and is a very useful addition.
Just let me know when you fancy an audition and I can get it arranged for you.
Um posts seem to be missing I had a notification that there was a new post to this thread but its not here.
I`ll post that having owned and demoed a Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 over a week now I`m just loving it, its getting me back into 2 channel music listening
I`ve upgraded my unit with HDMI and USB boards and atm I`m using it with an OPPO B 105 via digital coax and I have to say it sounds superb
Room Perfect if done correctly is a breeze to setup and it integrates my dual JL Audio subs the best I`ve ever heard them with my PMC`s
Just a superb piece of kit beautifully built and presented which sounds amazing, well done Lyngdorf, its my first venture into this make of AV amplification and I`m simply thrilled with it
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