LX91 and 5000ES comparison.

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by kingfats, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    :hiya:
    As promised i'll post some thoughts on the two players bear in mind this is
    just "my" findings on my own setup,others may have different results/opinions etc which is fine by me. :thumbsup:
    Both players have great build quality no worries there,91 is heavier though.Nice finish on both machines.
    No noise from the players during operation/playback,disc tray open/close both nice and smooth.Better remote on the Pioneer,backlight on Sony remote.
    From standby to disc opening or player options screen both are near enough the same and speedwise it's very acceptable.Both quite snappy through menu screens,good response from remote.
    Loading discs the Sony was the quickest.
    Options wise both players have a ton of settings and adjustments which can be applied to the picture you could tweak away forever really.
    LX91 and the 5000ES both have Deep Colour (upsampling) which is put to great use.
    Both players have there own unique features of course,HD Enhancer on the 5000 and "on the fly" resolution change with the 91,Pioneer has a good display (disc info) feature as well.
    Region free DVD can be done easily enough on both players.No (memory) Resume for DVD on both players but stopped position can be resumed if player is turned off but not if disc is ejected.Layer change? 91 3 sec/max 5000 1 sec/max...on average 0.5 sec.
    No Source Direct on the 5000 (91 yes) but 480i/576i is there as an option.

    DVD playback.
    Both players failed the 2.2 detection film detail (speedway) test, the 91 did very well on the 2.2 cadence (restaurant) test though,more here.
    The Sony can give a very good image with DVD content (NTSC is best)clean,sharp and detailed given a good disc,i rank the 5000 along side my XE1 in overall PQ maybe a touch higher when you take into account the Sonys picture adjustments what can be applied.
    The LX91 is step up over the 5000 regarding DVD though on all levels,much more of a solid looking picture with added depth and detail,less noise to the image as well.PAL is not perfect but it is still VERY good Blade 2 was the best i've seen it and even beat my 983 in presentation. :eek:
    NTSC movies can be played back @ 1080p/24 this is flawless as far as i can tell,with very smooth motion and SUPERB images,easily the players "main" strength with DVD.....top notch.
    So,the 5000 has very good DVD playback the LX91 has excellent DVD playback,in my opinion of course.
    I'm bitstreaming over HDMI to my Onkyo 876 and audio wise there's no difference in quality or volume with DD/DTS between the two players.

    HD audio comparison. ;)
    After some extensive testing plus a couple of friends over to get their opinions as well i can't really hear any difference between the two players with bitstreaming the same track over HDMI.....both excellent. :thumbsup:
    Quite easy to compare on a few movies as i have 2 copies each of Casino Royale,Batman Begins,Spiderman 3,Cars,Ratatouille,Iron Man,Cast Away,Crank,Hairspray,Wall.E and Black Hawk Down....same movie in each player and then it's just one button push to change.
    So,on "my" setup i (we) couldn't detect any change to the soundtracks regarding quality,detail and certainly volume.They just sounded SO similiar it was very VERY obvious to tell.
    Cheers.

    BD Video. :)
    Ok,i 've done enough testing now so i'm confident enough to post my findings (as asked) on the two players regarding BD PQ please bear in mind this is just "my" opinion and others may see more or less (?) differences that me,and have different kit etc...yada yada yada. :D
    First off,no real difference with sharpness,detail and colour (or Pop) between the two on my setup BUT what did show now and again was an increased sense of depth to the picture and "overall" image clarity subtle yes but i wll try and explain what i actually saw....
    Lost season 4 menu screen (freighter) via the 5000 the picture was clear,sharp and 3D looking,switch to the 91 the image was the same but stretched out even further into the distance so to speak,it looked more inviting.....more real? into the jungle :eek: couple of scenes here where the actual surroundings (foilage,trees etc) just looked more spread out,like a path going through the picture....a sense of being there? :blush:
    Resident Evil Extinction ( stop laughing i love it) nice shot at the start there's room with a table and some other junk (secret trapdoor opens) 5000 great image for the disc anyway,but on the 91 the same scene (room) just had a more of a spacious look to it...a definite "uplift" to the image.
    Casino Royale i noticed some improvements here as well,again with increased image depth to the picture,i must stress what i saw (am seeing) is indeed subtle there was never any real WOW moments as such but some nice one's all the same.
    Also,my two friends and wife couldn't see a damn bit of difference between the two players but then that's to be expected i guess because you have to be a bit of geek really to be into all this AV stuff....it's a bit mad.
    Well there you go,i found the LX91 to have slightly better BD PQ than the 5000ES "much" better DVD and the same audio wise over HDMI.
    The Pioneer is also about £600 more than the Sony so it's not a VS thread as such just a gentle comparison that's all.
    Both players are excellent to be honest,very clean,sharp images with Blu-ray in my opinion the 91 has the slight edge but then it's more cash as well.
    I'm still keeping the 5000 because i love it but will look into getting the 91 as this one i have is not actually mine.
    Zero issues to date with the 5000,no disc issues so far on the 91,tell a lie slight lip sync on Res Evil which i corrected via players audio adjust and all was well.
    Have fun. :clap:
    EDIT: More thoughts after living with both players a bit longer.

    Disc load times.
    From close to menu screen using chapter skip to get there.
    LX91:
    Resident Evil Extinction > 2:12
    Kung Fu Panda > 2:01
    Rambo > 1:42
    Casino Royale > 1:01

    5000ES:
    Resident Evil Extinction > 1:18
    Kung Fu Panda > 1:50
    Rambo > 1:12
    Casino Royale > 0:40.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  2. SATM

    SATM
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Southend-on-Sea,Essex.
    Ratings:
    +185
    Hi KF,
    with the promise of our being snowbound,there will be no excuse for not ploughing on with the comparative test.
    Look forward to part 2.
     
  3. McFaber

    McFaber
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,197
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +144
    Nice unbiased review there kingfats...:thumbsup:
    Just a quick question on regards to 'Deep Colour'; Do you need a display compatible with 'Deep C' for it to work?
    Anyway, never mind looking the players! What's your sexy leg(stand/unit) called?...:D
     
  4. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    Hi Manxstar. :)
    The whole chain has to be yes :smashin: display and amp if you use one.
    Bought that from StandandDeliver they don't seem to stock the unit no more though.
    Pic here of the stand in my setup if you need a proper idea of size.
    All the best.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  5. Danepack

    Danepack
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    280
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +33
    the rack is soundstyle. looks like superfi has them very cheap £117 at the moment and they say in stock as well
     
  6. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    3,564
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Ratings:
    +179
    Can I ask what the difference in load up time is from pressing close to a blu ray disc's menu appearing ? thanks very much:thumbsup:
     
  7. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    I'll do some times later on today. :smashin:
    All the best.
     
  8. McFaber

    McFaber
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,197
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +144
    Cheers for the heads up fellas...:smashin:
    I'll be having a closer look.
     
  9. willharris10

    willharris10
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,297
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +140
    Hey KF!

    I know you're going to hate me, but I've got to ask as you're the only guy with both. Can you do an analogue comparison of the multichannel and 2 ch. Analogue connections between the Sony and the Pioneer. Means a great deal to me as you can imagine!

    :lease: :lease: :lease: :thumbsup:
     
  10. Avi

    Avi
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Messages:
    13,963
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,064
    It's worth investigating the display as the ability to achieve greater colour gradiation is usually a limitation of the display tech rather than the source. Some displays will also already interpolate colours to a higher degree to avoid artefacts such as contouring and posterization. :)

    Edit

    Some discussion here re how the tech may affect this area - http://www.avforums.com/forums/plas...oneer-krp-m-owners-thread-19.html#post8418670

    AVI
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  11. google

    google
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    3,003
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,632
    Thanks Kingfats.:thumbsup: I'm mainly interested in the Blu-ray comparison so I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this.

    I currently use the S350 and bitstream the sound over HDMI to my Onkyo 805. Is there much difference in AQ from the 5000 & LX91 over HDMI when compared to the S350?

    Cheers mate.

    Scott
     
  12. malcolmk

    malcolmk
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Messages:
    764
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    SE London
    Ratings:
    +76
    I guess you've not thought out how difficult that is. :)

    Transfer eight phono plugs from one machine to another, then go through the LX91 menus to switch audio to analogue and go through the disc start up routine again. I know KF is a miracle worker but he'll be lucky to do all that in much under five minutes. Unless it's chalk and cheese I think we will be testing his audio memory to the limit.

    Well, what are you waiting for KF? :hiya:
     
  13. willharris10

    willharris10
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,297
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +140

    Exactly! Piece of cake! :D No seriously, I know it's a total ball ache, but when you can only use analogues (as I currently have 10 wires poking out of the back of mine into the Denon) you need to know how they sound. Now if anyone can recall how the sound was, then it's KF! I'm not saying it won't be a ball ache, hell, if you'd have me, I'd come and help KF, i'm only 25 mins away from you!
     
  14. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    Hi google. :)
    I'm just getting some BD discs together so i can have the same movie ruuning in either player for quick comparison :smashin: will only be one button push then to change kit.
    Already compared bitstream DD/DTS between the 91,5000 and 983 and to be honest i couldn't hear any difference. (HDMI)
    Will post more no worries. :thumbsup:
     
  15. JonStatt

    JonStatt
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,352
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +445
    The answer is no in the case of the Sony S5000ES. It uses super bit mapping to achieve extra colour graduations on an 8-bit display. This is some kind of specialised dithering technique, but it means you will see colour improvements even on a non deep colour compatible display.
     
  16. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    I will later on in the week :smashin: but as Malcolm says it's a lot more tricky with the analogues so your just have to take my feedback as a rough guide i guess.
    But for what it's worth i will test the analogues out for you :smashin: i'm no audiophile mind though just an average enthusiast so don't expect anything too technical. :D
    All the best.
     
  17. willharris10

    willharris10
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,297
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +140
    KF you're too modest. And you don't realise how much you're appreciated! Now when is there going to be an AVForums movie night!?

    I have another sofa arriving in March ( :D ) so will hold an open house for a handful of you guys to come round if you'd like to. Be nice to have a bit of a bite to eat, and meet and chat. Any takers!?
     
  18. McFaber

    McFaber
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,197
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +144
    Thanks for the info AVI & JonStatt.
    Certainly interesting how the dithering(SBM) improves on limiting the effects of posterization and contouring!
     
  19. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    :D
    From close to menu screen using chapter skip to get there. :)
    LX91:
    Resident Evil Extinction > 2:12
    Kung Fu Panda > 2:01
    Rambo > 1:42
    Casino Royale > 1:01

    5000ES:
    Resident Evil Extinction > 1:18
    Kung Fu Panda > 1:50
    Rambo > 1:12
    Casino Royale > 0:40.

    :p
     
  20. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    3,564
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Ratings:
    +179

    Quite a difference there.
     
  21. HD Elvis

    HD Elvis
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,083
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Sunderland
    Ratings:
    +87
    As Sony's flagship model it seems to tick all the boxes spec wise and as such is a serious contender for being my first standalone player. However I would be interested to know what KF thinks as he too has a Pio plasma albeit slightly better than mine.;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2009
  22. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    Hi HD Elvis. :)
    I would definitely recommend the Sony to match up with the Pioneer screen :smashin: excellent combination.Personally i think it's a bit of a bargain really.
    All the best.
     
  23. Ian_S

    Ian_S
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,163
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +2,198
    Right as some of you are going to notice there has been a HUGE tidy up on this thread, and as such here are the reasons why...

    The whole thing got derailed over subwoofers, and other topics outside of the subject of this thread, and then went rapidly downhill...

    With regard to advertisers, the fact that they are advertisers and businesses is not hidden, they're in their own group, and they usually have a signature that indicates what their business is and what they sell. Use this information. Personally I do not want advertisers to just advertise and not participate, but it is a two way street IMO. If we jump down their throats every time they post something we may not agree with, they will not bother with the site at all and that would be worse. Or the only thing they post will be meaningless marketing babble. If you want decent info, you need to listen to what are often their opinions, and if need be, ask more questions about why they think that. If the reason amounts to no more than "because we don't sell it", it's not that hard to sift out and get called, albeit politely. Some AV dealers are also AV enthusiasts and their opinions even if perhaps outspoken, can add interesting points to a discussion providing they are backed up by facts. The good ones do have some useful knowledge, but we need a friendly environment to get that experience from them IMO. ;)

    Like the rest of the mods in here, we have no vested interest in this site or its advertisers, and are like you, just AV enthusiasts trying to give something back to the wider community by helping and trying to keep things on an even keel.

    So let's keep on topic, (which means no debating this post here) and be a bit more chilled over what may be said. :smashin: these vs. threads are getting to be hard work... :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  24. IWC Dopplel

    IWC Dopplel
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    4,019
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    134
    Location:
    BATH
    Ratings:
    +531
    KF, hi

    Looking at the 91 vs 5000 how does the picture compare on HD ? :smashin:

    IWC
     
  25. willharris10

    willharris10
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,297
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +140
    Agree.

    So KF, looking forward to the analogue comparison if you get a chance mate. Still with they made the 5000es in a nice colour, oh I don't know, like maybe Premium Silver LOL. But hey, looks like black lumps in your rack are all the rage again. Then when you see what Onkyo did with silver you can understand why! I like the look of the 91 and the only drawback being that it looks so like the 71 and 51. And as I currently have a 51 I'm rather pleased about that, but it inclines me less towards the 91 on aesthetics (would like a bit of design premium!)
     
  26. kingfats

    kingfats
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    36,741
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +9,002
    :D
    Still testing :eek: i want it to be fair and honest feedback before i post,but that's all it will be mind.....feedback,not an expert just a normal bloke so basically it's just my opinion at the end of day.
    I didn't really want to go into the technical side of my things as it's not really my bag but as it's been raised (thanks to the mods for the tidy up) all my setup's calibrated to the best of my ability (kit list in sig) using the an Eye One sensor plus calibration disc and following this excellent guide here :smashin: audio is setup via the Onkyo's Audyssey calibration and my sound meter,very happy with the end result and it suits me just fine.I know a ISF calibration (had one before) will give me an even better picture but it's not practical anymore as i'm always changing kit around,so had to get my butt in gear and get tweaking myself.
    I'm quite confident on the BD audio side of things now so WILL post on this later today.DVD audio (DD/DTS) has already been tested to death and i found no real difference with this.....bitstream over HDMI.
    The reason i opended this thread was because i was asked many times on other threads and by PM to do a comparison between the two players,not a VS or debate topic.....i'm just happy to help out and post "my" findings.
    For me watching movies is about having fun :clap: excellent forum here with a great community spirit......so enjoy. :hiya:
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  27. JonStatt

    JonStatt
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,352
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +445
    As my post got wiped out yesterday with the tidy-up, I just wanted to make a comment.

    Some think "you get what you pay for", so that a Pioneer costing almost twice as much as the Sony must be better.

    I wanted to point out that in the US, the recommended retail prices of the Sony, Denon and Pioneer are all pretty much the same. (The Sony being 2000 USD, and the Pioneer being 2200 recommended)

    I don't quite understand why the Sony ended up so far under the others in the UK..because if you argue that it was exchange rates, then the Denon should have been cheaper too.

    Anyway, Kingfats may well conclude the Pioneer IS better, but I did want to elminate the price consideration as being a factor that says the "Pioneer MUST be better".
     
  28. Bumtious

    Bumtious
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    8,126
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Prestwich Manchester
    Ratings:
    +7,650
    Again like Jon, after the cleaning of the thread and much discussion.


    Looks like KF is now seeing the differences of where the money goes with the higher end units.

    At this point I want to get things clear, we don’t supply the 5000 that is not because we don’t want to, we just can’t make it work commercially.

    I have had a 5000 to evaluate for 5 days, which was loaned back to me from a customer that we sourced one for. I used it for 2 evenings at home in my rig the other 3 days here. The Oppo 983 was loaned by Vipers and I also had 5 days with that and that was used in the same way.

    At home tests were carried out on Pio KRP600A, Denon 4308, Denon 3800 Sky HD, Sony PS3, PMC OB1i, PMC CB6i, PMC FB1i, Moon CD-1 (don’t supply that either)

    So just to add some techy reasons to KF observations with the 5000, the main differences here are all down to power supply and the type of processing used to end up with end result you see on screen.

    The Sony's reality enhancer works in the same way as its TVs do, and that is by skewing the picture away from accurate by changing the gamma characteristics and adding dynamic contrast to the image, it also tries to suppress noise while adding edge enhancement.

    That’s fine if you like that sort of image and there is nothing wrong with this, but it is not really accurate, the Pioneer is about trying to achieve accurate with the minimum of fuss. Out of the box as far as I'm concerned there is nothing major needed to be done, all I have done to ours is reduced the white level down 1 notch to take out the little bit of white clip that is present, if you are serious about your picture you will not use the presets even though the one that should be used for the Pioneer Kuro sets is the most accurate, it also gives the flattest picture.

    A good high end player is all about a good clean image to start with that is done by using superior components and power supplies.

    The most interesting observation that KF has made is one I made and it is in the SD performance of the 91, that is its a more engaging watch than the Oppo 983, that is because its base components provide a cleaner signal path allowing more detail to be revealed, so for 20 seconds in a 2 hour film the Oppo MAY do better (depending on your TV) with some tricky to "de interlace" scene but for the other 1 hour 59 minutes and 40 seconds the Pio will do a better job (and I think Vipers is finding the same with his).

    Sound wise that is where this player scores really well, but a large proportion of the money that makes up this players money has been spent on the analogue outputs.

    I could go on with the comparisons but really the 5000 is not at the same price point as the 91, there are other players that are, a new unit from Cambridge Audio is about to hit, Arcam are about to launch a unit, of course there is The Denon 3800 and others will launch soon. But sound wise to me the 5000 does seem better than its budget siblings but only by a small margin, but the price point that the 5000 is at in the UK makes it worth a look, IMHO if the 5000 was priced at a similar level to the 91 then for me the 91 wins in every area, but it not priced at the same level so its definitely worth a look and is good value for money.

    Many people will like this type of image the 5000 generates, but I don’t think its particularly accurate when used on calibrated 60” plasma. It certainly looks different on a LCD set and this is where the 5000 may be best partnered IMHO.

    That’s my take, and to sum up, the 91 is in another league and to realise its full potential you need an appropriate display AND appropriate sound system, both set up properly to really see what the 91 has to offer.
     
  29. SATM

    SATM
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Southend-on-Sea,Essex.
    Ratings:
    +185
    For an alternative perspective,joerod's "reflections"(Page 5,post 143) on the Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD(LX 91)thread on AVS Forum make interesting reading.
    He includes a 3 way comparison between the Pioneer,the Sony BDP-S5000ES,and the Denon 3800.
    I will not pre-empt KF's further reports by revealing the conclusions of joerod,and his viewing panel.
     
  30. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    3,564
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Ratings:
    +179
    Have you got the URL for this thread ?:thumbsup:
     

Share This Page

Loading...