Lush sound??? Whats that supposed to mean??

RustyZip

Active Member
Hi...

Im slowly upgrading all my audio equipment

I had:-
Marantz CD63 MkII K.I.Signature CD Player
Arcam Alpha 9 Int. Amplifier
B&W 603 S1 speakers

At the mo, i have:-
Primare CD31 CD Player
Primare I30 Int. Amplifier
B&W 704 speakers

I was really pleased with the music/sound with the original equipment, so i thought, brill - lets upgrade and it'll be even better!!
But now, although detail, clarity etc are superb, its not the sort of "sound" im after..

So, basically what im asking, is (for people in the know) how would you describe the sound of the original equipment (if youve heard that gear)???

One bloke in a HiFi store said my original stuff would of given a very "lush" sound....
What the hell is a lush sound????

Im currently pondering on whether to sell my 704's for something else... i might demo ProAc studio 140... Supposed to go well with the Primare..

Any comments, info, greatly appreciated....
 

sbowler

Well-known Member
Thats the danger of upgradeing, in trying to improve the sound which you admit you were happy with. You have now lost that quality that made it sound to you the way you wanted. Everyone hears and sees things differently what may sound good to you can sound harsh to anothers ears. I would consider the word "lush" as meaning a warm sound like mellow is to coffee, a sound that has less top end or treble. I had one of the earlier amps, a huge Yamaha DPSA 2070 when I bought it the dealer said it had a warm sound, he was right. I onece changed the phonos for a cheaper brand and it made the amp sound brittle, changed them back and it sounded good again.
Reviewers of equipment can only recommend equipment which they feel will meet your needs based on cost, enviroment, type of material listened or watched and your budget. You must then audition this equipment and let your eyes and ear decide for you.
 
H

HiFiver

Guest
Could mean that your original gear was luscious with a warm, beautiful and dense sound?Wonder if the upgrade was right for you in the first place?
Or maybe he meant you are a lush? Were you ****** when you bought the new gear without demoing it?:)
 

hornydragon

Distinguished Member
perhaps its not the new kit to blame necassarily.....

It could be the room. your kit is at a level were the room s going make a huge ipmact on the sound the improvements in frequency handling may be exagerating issues in the room design, layout and construction
 

Sofa1

Active Member
well, if it isn't the room, it will be problem of sinergy, if it's neither of both, it will be problem of you. in fact, that's the way to find better way to say sorry for spending so much on some hi-fi gear which don't deliver anything better than your old poor people system. you know, if you read reviews of some budget-modest price gear, they'll beat hell out of them for anything wrong, but if it is review of some over 1k or 2k component, well that's another story. every fault is forgivable or less important, and at the end you have to find magical combination of cables-main cables-speakers-CD records-room-position of chairs- to make this piece of equipment to sound very good:eek:

that's what driving hi-end industry:confused: so, don't change anything if you're satisfied. more focus on music is better alternative.
 

Thekop

Active Member
RustyZip said:
Hi...

Im slowly upgrading all my audio equipment

I had:-
Marantz CD63 MkII K.I.Signature CD Player
Arcam Alpha 9 Int. Amplifier
B&W 603 S1 speakers

At the mo, i have:-
Primare CD31 CD Player
Primare I30 Int. Amplifier
B&W 704 speakers

I was really pleased with the music/sound with the original equipment, so i thought, brill - lets upgrade and it'll be even better!!
But now, although detail, clarity etc are superb, its not the sort of "sound" im after..

So, basically what im asking, is (for people in the know) how would you describe the sound of the original equipment (if youve heard that gear)???

One bloke in a HiFi store said my original stuff would of given a very "lush" sound....
What the hell is a lush sound????

Im currently pondering on whether to sell my 704's for something else... i might demo ProAc studio 140... Supposed to go well with the Primare..

Any comments, info, greatly appreciated....
Hi..

This sounds like a classic case of a system mis-match matey.. I'm tempted to blame the B&W 704s speakers in your system.. In my opinion they are just big and lazy sounding speakers.. They certainly aren't my cup of tea.. It's amazing how the much smaller B&W 805's sound so much different and laughably superior to them..... I can't see the ProAcs being much different to the 704s, they are a touch brighter, but smooth with it.... I recommend you try and audition the new Ruark Acoustic Talisman 3 for an injection of pace...

Goodluck

Tim :)
 

dynamic turtle

Novice Member
Well, the "lushest" cd-based system I can remember was Emporium's set-up at the Heathrow show - Lector tube output CDP, Viva 845 SET amp, ESL57's.

Very, very nice.

I honestly haven't heard a solid state pre/power (that wasn't silly money - i.e. Hovland RADIA's) that I could call "lush".

DT
 

dynamic turtle

Novice Member
Following-up, AFAIK B&W speakers are tested/designed/optimised for solid-state amps. IIRC the 704's are a fairly difficult load and probably need serious transistor power (thinking minimum 150wpc), so it may just be that the Primare doesn't quite have "the balls" to get hold of them properly. Have you thought about trying a meatier integrated? If you find the 704's a bit bright & forward, I couldn't recommend Krell, but something like Audio Analogue Maestro might do the job. Seriously powerful and quite smooth for a transistor integrated. Gorgeous looking and incredibly well-built beast of an amp. Should be available for under £1500 used.

DT
 
T

tazkb

Guest
I am whole heartedly with you having heard your old kit
I have owned in the past some expensive kit and have suffered the very same problem. Last year I had a similar problem with a music fidelity A308 cd player, Tri- Vista amp and moitor audio gr20's, the sound was fast open and highly detailed but there was a degree of brightness and sibilance I just could not live with over the long term. A friend of mine used some top marantz gear and i prefered the sound of his gear warm and slightly softer which initialy sounded less detailed but when u listened carefully all the detail was there just presented in a different way.There is undoubtedly the question of synergy (componant matching) and also cabling which can change the sound, although in your system I doubt it will offer you the kind of change you are looking for. Imo I would point the finger at your speakers as personaly I was never impressed with the 704's. I have a marantz cd 5001ose (heavily modded) marantz pm7200 amp and b&w s603s3 speakers and I have a "lush"
kind of sound which I would describe more as a smooth warm sound free of sibilance and brightness.My personal advice if your interested would be to spend a little time demming some new speakers with your amps and cd, ignore the mag's advice and others and judge yourself with your ears and don't rush into a decission. You don't mention a budget but with so many speakers to choose from it's a bit of a mine field out there. The primare kit is not normally over bright so maybe a few phone calls to dealers to ask there opinion within your given budget and see what they suggest.Also be carefull to match your cables as it can make a huge difference.
You don't say wether you like standmount,s of floor standers.
The proac's are ok imo but i would try the Acoustic energy AE1 Mk III's which I think would give you that warmth your currently lacking or maybe the spendor s8e or s9e which are a mellow warm speaker and fabulous, but the main thing is go and listen and don't be influenced by the dealer
good luck and let us know how you get on
:thumbsup:
 

RustyZip

Active Member
Thanks everyone for all the replies, some good info/comments there...

Yes, i too, think the cuplrits are the B&W 704 speakers...
With mellower/soft/slow music, they are quite good, great in fact; but when things start speeding up or the music gets more "complicated" they seem to get flustered, and sound awful...

Also, the old system with the B&W603's seemed to be quite mellow/warm sounding, but the treble was still sweet with a nice slight hint of "tizzz"(?), and also had good low bass...

Any more ideas on suggestions for speakers that'll give me roughly the kind of sound i had before???
Budget would be roughly £1500, dont mind buying ex-demo or new.
I prefer floorstanders for the sheer scale of sound and low bass (though not too much bass), and must sit about no more than 15" away from walls..
I listen to roughly - 60% rock, 20% blues, 10% classical, 10% pop

As i originally said, i was thinking of ProAc Studio 140, but anymore that should be on my shortlist, please say...
 

CJROSS

Well-known Member
If I was looking to partner floorers with a I30, I would have to be checking these out :

Mod Comment...link to competing forum removed...


£900, stunning the times I heard them with an A30.1.

£1500, if it where me though bro, I'd be running standmounts + a decent sub off that I30, you can get some stunning standmount+sub combos for £1500, even then the Dyn 1.8 IIs would be very very tempting even to a sub-standmount user like me.

Good luck BTW.
 

RustyZip

Active Member
CJROSS said:
£1500, if it where me though bro, I'd be running standmounts + a decent sub off that I30, you can get some stunning standmount+sub combos for £1500

Funny you should say that, although i have only ever had floorstanders, i was thinking "how about those B&W 805s on stands???". Then when funds allow, perhaps add a decent subwoofer..

I forgot to mention before, that these would have to be the front left and right of a home cinema setup, so whatever i buy, matching centre and rears is a must (well - later on at least :) )

Anyone hear these B&W 805's with a sub??

Or any other floorstanders OR standmounts + sub i should be thinking of ???
 

CJROSS

Well-known Member
RustyZip said:
Funny you should say that, although i have only ever had floorstanders, i was thinking "how about those B&W 805s on stands???". Then when funds allow, perhaps add a decent subwoofer..

I forgot to mention before, that these would have to be the front left and right of a home cinema setup, so whatever i buy, matching centre and rears is a must (well - later on at least :) )

Anyone hear these B&W 805's with a sub??

Or any other floorstanders OR standmounts + sub i should be thinking of ???

Loads more.

Standmount wise, Sonus Faber Signums/AEIIs/Cremona Auditors, Diapason Karis, WB Arcs, 805s, System Audio speakers sound excellent of your combo.
 

hornydragon

Distinguished Member
So your room accoustics are perfect then, thats cool no worries of standing waves or refections causing issues in your playback, a very lucky man
 

RustyZip

Active Member
hornydragon said:
So your room accoustics are perfect then, thats cool no worries of standing waves or refections causing issues in your playback, a very lucky man

Well, i dunno about being perfect, but they seemed fine with my old setup...
Different kit shouldnt need different accoustics should it??
 

karkus30

Banned
RustyZip said:
Well, i dunno about being perfect, but they seemed fine with my old setup...
Different kit shouldnt need different accoustics should it??

Wrong ! Even in simplified terms, some speakers need lots of room to work and some are better in a tiny space. Some work great in corners or up against a wall, whilst some dont sound right unless they are in free space. Its usually the case that smaller stand mounters are easier on room acoustics, they also take up less space so you can move your listening position to the precise point of imaging.

I would recommend NEAT Motive 1s at that price.
 

SYNCHRO_MAN

Standard Member
i would agree with taz ,try the spendors!
they are a great speaker nice and soft at the bottom end,and enough detail at the higher end.
i have had both,Spendors and Rogers ls6 , and Tdl rt2 floorstander speakers in my systems before and regretted changing them but room size/acoustics and av requirements dictated change.
also any dealer worth his salt would let you take them home and try them out to see if they are suitable.
you could try changing cables,that may help even cheap twin and earth solid core electrical cable has been known to produce results when coupled to the bass drivers on biwirable speakers.

hope this is of help to you,

remember listen before you buy& a home demo is even better

good luck

Eddie:thumbsup:
 

hornydragon

Distinguished Member
no it shouldnt as long as the new kits frequency response, sensitivity and amplitude are identical (but then the sound would be identical too) so i reconmend audio calibration before you buy more kit that could sound worse
 
A

adam7788

Guest
HI
Dont dismiss the room acoustics. They make a massive difference to the sound. Every system is a compromise, with the cables tweaking the tone to suit the room. My room (temporary at the mo..due to move in a month) is wooden floorboards, bare walls on two sides and records behind and records in front. There is a definite sibilance inthe room and peaks and LF and HF. When the missus is out, and I'm a sad audioholic, and I damp the room with cushions, duvet on the floor to stop the reflection etc etc, the sound is jaw dropping. When the room is "naked", it's still a good sound, but I can hear the reflected uppermid/HF and the boom LF from the corners. Perhaps you didn't hear it before?
 

mike_campbell

Standard Member
RustyZip said:
Hi...

Im slowly upgrading all my audio equipment

I had:-
Marantz CD63 MkII K.I.Signature CD Player
Arcam Alpha 9 Int. Amplifier
B&W 603 S1 speakers

At the mo, i have:-
Primare CD31 CD Player
Primare I30 Int. Amplifier
B&W 704 speakers

I was really pleased with the music/sound with the original equipment, so i thought, brill - lets upgrade and it'll be even better!!
But now, although detail, clarity etc are superb, its not the sort of "sound" im after..

....

I currently have a similar setup as yours but with the Audiolab 8000s/8000sx bi-amp combo and Mission 782 speakers with QED silver aniversary bi-wire. It is all about system balance. The warmish sound of the marantz balancing the dryness of the Audiolabs and the wonderful neutrality of the Missions 782. I also use a Musical Fidelity X10 on the output of the cd player and this gives a valve like quality to the cd player sound. The X10 works so well in this system. I am currently upgrading the clock stage and voltage stabiliser units on the CD63 KI SIG for further levels of clarity and soundstaging. This should work without "un-balancing" the rest of the system. See a previous thread on this forum about the value of upgrading the clock stage on a Marantz CD player. Hope this helps!

Mike
 
Z

Zarete

Guest
For speakers, try System Audio 1750's or 1280s. They work a treat. Also seriously recommend using good cable. As a starter, try Nordost Blue Heaven interconnect/speaker cable. expensive but worth it. I used same combination with legacy B&W CDM7se and the sound is flat and dull compared to the SAs (now use 1750s) The difference is palpable and immediate.
 

mcsdan

Active Member
how about trying some other speaker cable. I went the other way with some chord carnival silver plus which sounded superb with my system until I changed the cd player. The new player has more detail and was also a little bit brighter.

I have used the brighter sounding carnival silver plus in a second system which has some older mission surround speaker. These speakers sounded a bit dull with normal copper speaker cable but excellent with the silver stuff.

Perhaps your dealer can lend you an few types of speaker cable.
 

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