Lush Midrange with Wide sound stage

samstereo

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Dear All,

I went for auditioning for new HiFi a month ago. I ended up buying
NAD c326BEE and Quad 22L2. It sounded great in the shop. NAD C326BEE is rated at 50Watt but well capable of driving Quad 22L2 floor standers.

I am using QED silverline cable. I havent yet bought a source , but I currently use Sony NWZ-E454 mp3 player, songs ripped at 320KBPS . I know source might be a weak link but I love the presentation and sound stage of Sony with Koss headphones. I am expecting similar sound presentation when I connect Sony mp3 player to NAD-QUAD setup. Bass is great - punchier and tight, highs are smooth.

The problem is , I am feeling something is missing from NAD-QUAD sound presentation. I need lot more open , airy mid range and wider sound stage and more details. (the one i get from Sony-Koss )
Would Musical Fidelity or Marantz higher end model make a difference or changing speakers first is more important ?

I am open for changing amp or speaker, new/used each within budget of £600. (will try to audition the new models suggested.)




Thanks
Sam
 
Before you spend £600 on anything else I recommend listening to a source that is not compressed MP3.

See if you can borrow a CD player off someone first. For me - MP3 strips a lot of the air and space from the music. You still get lows mids and highs but theres something missing.

Also worth a try before spending £600 on anything, spend £2 a metre on some Van Damme Studio Blue 2.5mm speaker cable. On my system this Van Damme cable sounds great especially in the midrange. My various QED cables are consigned into a drawer in my spare room.

Then and only then if your still not happy I would look at changing the speakers. Where abouts are you located SAM?

Butuz
 
Thanks Butuz.

I will try the Van Damme cables and see if it makes difference. Whats setup do you have ?
Do you recommend any CD player which can suit my requirements ? Marantz cd6003 is on my short list.


Also I am hoping some one who has Quad 22L2 could also post their experience.

Sameer
 
I would also suggest you take a long hard look at the acoustics of your room. Headphones are a self-contained environment that does not have to worry about sound bouncing off the walls, and other general acoustic problems.

Plus it is easy to get great sound stage when the stage is literally attached to your ears. Building it in the confine of a room is another matter.

Placement of the speakers plays a big role. Do the speakers face straight forward, or are they turned in at an angle? Both are equally right and equally wrong depending on the specific circumstances.

Stand in the middle of the room and look around. What do you see? Do you see hard flat smooth surfaces every where? Or, is there something breaking them up - curtains, rugs, ceiling tile, bookshelves, fabric furniture, etc.., etc..., etc....

Hard room equals hard sound, soft room equals soft sound. A hard room is filled with reflections that are killing the sound. Soft room can be too soft, but for the most part the sound is more diffused and less reflective.

Specifically what your problem is, it hard to determine when we can see the room and the setup.

It could be something as simple as mis-wiring the speakers. This is always the first thing to check if you are not getting the results you want. Make sure, in every case, that the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). This is a very easy mistake to make. And you can't just think it right, you have to absolutely positively verify it.

Also, find a way to test the speakers with a known quality source. Even the best MP3 are lacking. They are great for casual and portable listening, but they fall short on good equipment played at home when you are paying attention.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
The 22L2's aren't ESL-2805's, so you're not going to get their fantastic sound stage, but at £600 you only have a fraction of what you'd need to spend. Within their price range the 22Ls's have a pretty decent sound stage.

As you say, the NAD is quite capable of handling the 22L2's. Changing the amplification will yield only little improvements, not vast ones, especially at your budget.

Changing the speaker cables won't yield anything either.

As Steve says, speakers interact with the room and each other, whereas the left and right headphones interact with your ears only. With recordings typically made for reproduction in rooms, headphones, with their inherently complete left & right separation, have an artificially exaggerated sound stage that you cannot recreate with interacting speakers.

For a wider soundstage you have to move the speakers further apart. Obviously though, you can't achieve left/right speaker = left/right ear only.

As Steve explains, for a more open sound you need to check the room furnishings. This applies even more if you have issues within a specific part of the bandwidth ("lot more open, airy mid range"), as it's the room that falsifies the frequency response.

In any case, throwing money at kit just one month after purchasing won't help.
 
Thanks guys. I would think my room is soft (big sofa's and thick curtains).

I do think , kind of improvement I am expecting will require change of speakers. Could you recommend any floorstandarders (room is about 22'x15' ). with budget of £600 I will have to look at used market .. ebay.
With lively characteristics ..suited for jazz, classical, vocal ?
 
£600 speakers are £600 speakers, and as they go, from all the information I've gathered, the Quads are pretty sweet. I've never heard any indication that they are lacking in any way. More so have heard they are better than the competition in their price range.

Quad 22L2 - Google Search

Next, speakers need time to get broke in. If you can't return them to the dealer as new for a refund or exchange, then give them a month. I took my speakers about 200 hours to finally settle in.

I have heard spectacular speakers. The Focal 800 series are very impressive, and the 836V are particularly stunning.

Focal 836 - Google Search

But as you can see, they are three times your budget.

The Mordaunt Short Performance 6 were also a stunning speaker, that absolutely filled the room with deep rich sound, but at the same time were very well balanced -

Google-UK - Shopping Search - Mordaunt Short Performance 6

And only 8 times your budget.

My point is, your expectations need to be realistic. You should get good quality performance from the Quads, but you can't expect £6000 performance on a £600 budget.

Now perhaps, the Quads just aren't to your taste, that happens. A given piece of audio equipment will loved and hated by audiophiles alike. But based on reputation, I have to believe the Quad's are a pretty sweet speaker. Perhaps not to your liking, but still a well regarded speaker.

From the brief description, your acoustics don't sound too bad. But there are so many factors that we can't know, that could have serious impact on the sound -

- Room acoustic
- Speaker placement
- How many hours are on the speakers
- The tonal nature and power of the Amp *
- The quality of the source material **
- The quality of the source playback device
- and many others

* The tonal nature and power of the amp -

Amps have a voice for lack of a better way to say it. They sound unique but in subtle ways. In consumer amps, I typically recommend more power. Though I confess I had a Pioneer TA-7500-II (45w/ch) that I love better than any amp I've ever heard (for the money). But more power has value up to a point. I currently have a 100w consumer amp (Yamaha).

It is possible that the voice of the NAD simply doesn't appeal to you. But, as with speakers, if you want a truly stunning amp, you have to pay for it. Recently I heard a couple amps that were truly stunning, but of course they should sound that way, they cost about £5000.

As to NAD in general, while they are not perfect, they are highly rated and highly reviewed amps in their price range. And in consumer amps, they tend to be ranked on the high side.

Finally, though already mentioned, make absolutely positively beyond any shadow of a doubt sure that the speaker are wired correctly. That in every case the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). It is easy to assume this is correctly only to find on closer inspection that you made a mistake. I've done it many times myself.

A phase error in the speaker wiring will suck the life out of the midrange.

We has someone recently whose speakers suddenly changed, and he couldn't figure out why. We suggested he check the wire, but he was sure it was OK. After a bit of discussion, he check and one of the speakers was wire backward. The kids had messed with it, or the wife had pulled the plugs out while vacuuming, or for whatever reason, someone changed it. You never really know until you check.


** The quality of the source material -

This is also a complex issue. MP3's even at the best, are just OK. They work fine. But did you put £1000 into audio equipment so it could sound fine?

The next issue is compression, or force loudness into the music. This can make the best music a total disaster, and there is nothing you can do about it. A CD can be as pristine as can be, but if the music has been overly compressed, then it is going to be dull, lifeless, and tiring. I hope to live to see an end to the senseless over-compression of modern music. It really destroys the dynamics that give music its life.

So, you need to find some music that is not overly compressed. Then you need to save it to your computer in WAV or FLAC format. The transfer it to your player, and play it back on your stereo.

Even then, you are at the mercy of your playback device. What does a Sony MP3 player cost?

Sony NWZ-E454 - Google Search

About £60. Keep in mind a good CD player can cost £500. A good DAC, which is what an MP3 player is in essence, can cost £150 to £1500. My point? You can't be sure that a £65 MP3 player is really doing justice to the music when playing through a £1000 stereo.

So, there are so many factor that we, not being there, just can't account for.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Thanks Butuz.

I will try the Van Damme cables and see if it makes difference. Whats setup do you have ?
Do you recommend any CD player which can suit my requirements ? Marantz cd6003 is on my short list.

Sameer

Hi Sameer

I have the following:
CD Player: Cambridge Audio 640C V2
DAC: Beresford TC7520
Power Amp: XTZ Desire AP-100
Speakers: PMC DB1S+

CD Players, Amps, Cables all make a difference, but by far the biggest difference will come from changing your speakers in my humble opinion.

Cheers

Butuz
 
big sofa's and thick curtains
... if there's also a thickish carpet, the room's furnishing will absorb much of the high frequencies, reducing the detail, air, openness.

Problem is, that contradicts your diagnosis that the midrange is the problem, and with such a clear statement, Steve and I assumed you had measured out the response with a SPL meter and test disc, and hence are looking for midrange response issues.

Like Steve, I rather doubt that spending £600 will gain much.

As a first attempt at checking whether high frequency response is the issue:
1) verify that the removable metal strips on the rear of the 22L2's have not been removed or are loose,
2) increase the treble on the amp to see what effects that has, and report back.
And of course, check that you haven't got one of the speakers wired the wrong way round, as Steve reiterates.
 
Hi Mark,

I checked the things you mentioned (metal plates, wiring) looks fine.

Normally I bypass the tone control. But did experiement with it , When I increase Treble and Bass , there is slight improvement in HF- and midrange (felt more fuller - which I liked) , but then overall sound quality is degraded. I also borrowed Cambridge audio 650A amp, it had good HF and details but lacked the bottom end.

I now feel NAD could also be the problem , I am going to Superfi again on Thursday to listen to some other amplifiers. I was hoping to listen to Musical Fidelity but they dont have it. (They have Creek , Rotel, Marantz, Arcam )

I was thinking I could get some good used amp within £600. MF A3.2 is on my list. any other recommendation ?

-Sam
 
When I increase Treble and Bass , there is slight improvement in HF- and midrange (felt more fuller - which I liked)
I think we can draw two conclusions:
1) you do not have a midrange problem (otherwise post a frequency response plot). You just improved "the midrange" by altering parameters (treble, bass) that by design have no effect on the midrange.
2) you have an HF problem (treble), and possibly an LF problem (you increased the bass to advantage). Feedback on the effect of altering only the treble (or only the bass) would be of assistance in a more precise diagnosis.

I was of course not suggesting that you resolve the issue by using the tone controls, I was merely trying to determine if tweaking the treble yielded any improvement, and you indicated that it did.

The HF problem is most likely the room, so room interaction is what you need to address, before spending on replacing audio equipment. After all, you went auditioning and "it sounded great in the shop", and you probably aren't made of money.

With tonal differences between amplifiers being subtle, changing the NAD for something else in the same price bracket won't resolve a major frequency-response issue. You already said you didn't have an insufficient power issue.

An LF weakness is not fixable in a £600 replacement speaker, but adding a suitable subwoofer is both feasible and the obvious remedy. The Quad L-Sub should nicely match the 22L2's and suit your budget. However, I think you should first sort out the room before investigating what can be gained with a subwoofer.
 
Agree - as I said above there are plenty of things you can tweak before resorting to buying new amps or speakers. Marks suggestion of treating the room is an excellent one.

My suggestion of getting rid of your QED cable is also an excellent one ;) All you need is £10 - £20 and you can try some decent Van Damme cable.

Butuz
 
I agree with what most people have said here re. the room acoustics, poor mp3 quality and speakers being possibly out of phase. I'm not sure how much an SPL meter costs but I'm sure it's a lot less than £600 !

My son has a NAD 326bee, it's been paired with a number of £200-£500 speakers over the last year and I certainly don't think it's lacking in any way, certainly not in the areas you point out. The only thing I can think of is try turning off the soft clipping. It does have a small though appreciable effect on sound quality. There isn't any real need to have it on anyway imo, as long as you're careful with volume control.
 
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I've really got nothing more to add at this point. But I will say there are plenty of people who would sell their soul to have your system.

The Quad 22L2 are what they are, by all indications, are they this is a pretty sweet speaker, and the NAD 326 is highly rated. NAD do have their subtle flaws, though it is nothing that can't be fixed by throwing double, triple, or quadruple the money at it. Meaning, that NAD are highly rated and well regarded, but not perfect. But that increased level of perfection does come at a high price.

I would double check the speaker wiring. This is one area that is easy to assume is correct, only to find out on closer inspection, it is not. I am super careful, especially with new wire, and I still make mistakes.

What about speaker position, can you give us the distance to the wall behind, and to the size walls?

Occassionally, if the speaker is too close to a wall, you get an increase in bass, that causes timing error in the midrange. I had some JBL, and at about 10" (250mm) for the back wall, the bass was overpowering, which in turn muddied the midrange to an intolerable and unbearable level. In my case, a massive difference was made in the midrange by plugging the bass port.

So, as well as general room acoustics, placement in the room is important.

In terms of sound stage, the angle or direction of the speaker can make a difference. Recently I bought new speaker for my computer, and angled them directly at the spot were I sit. That seemed very logical. However, one day, rather than point them at me, I pointed them more forward, and the sound stage just exploded.

Now, the angle of the speaker relative to the listener is a very circumstance specific thing, so there is no one set formula. Just try a few things, and see which works best.

In the mean time, I would like to hear a description of how the speaker are placed relative to the nearby walls.

Like I said, most people would love to have this system, so I have to think the real problem lies outside the system.

Just as an experiment, Try plugging the port with a tea towel or something similar, and see if that clears up the midrange. If it does, oddly enough, that indicates you actually have a bass problem.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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UPDATE :

I played with speakers positioning yesterday evening and it's making vast improvement in soundstage. Midrange became more clear. Earlier they were 1.5' from rear walls and 2.5' from side walls , 6' apart. Improvement came when I moved them 3' from rear walls and kept straight. That is as much as I could move them with my current furniture setup.

Later , I push them back again and plugged towel in bass ports , and again I heard the clean midrange that I was missing. Thanks Steve for sharing your experience, you are spot on, it was excess bass affecting the mids. Like to thank everyone here to made me experiment with current setup. I was almost going to throw it.


I had played with speaker positioning in the first week that I had bought the speakers, but did not hear any noticeable difference then. That could be becase of speakers were not broken in. (Hifiver2 , soft clipping was switched off in first week.)

I am still not getting perfect stereo image. (where I can feel singer is in center). Over the weekend I am planning to make changes to entire furniture setup to create more room. And report back.

Also , Like to ask if adding Musical Fidelity used A3CR power amp and use NAD 326 as preamp would significatly open up the QUADs ?

I think next step for me is to get a decent Source. I plan to keep all my music as flac , Any good new/used DAC under £400. right now I only know about V-DAC ? Is there any thing better than this ?

-Sameer
 
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Poor central imaging is a symptom of incorrect polarity - as BlueWizard says, check and check again that both speakers are wired the same. It's a very cheap improvement if they're wrong!

Dave
 
You might also be able to soften the room by placing convoluted or pyramid acoustical foam on the close wall behind the speaker, and possible also to the side.

In a vague sense, this will make the speaker think it has more space there than it actually does, and will soften reflections from these surfaces.

Real acoustical foam, if you only buy say FOUR panels, might be reasonably cheap.

However, if you want to do it on the super cheap, the a convoluted foam matress pad, could be used. If you don't like the yellow foam color, you could over it in a home made cloth case (like a pillow case) made from some transparent cloth from the local fabric store.

Generally, the more visually transparent the cloth is, the more acoustically transparent it is. Hold it up to the light and look through it, the better you can see, the better it will work.

It sounds like you've got thing under control. So, this is just a suggestion, if you want to take it a bit farther. If you price a twin or full sized foam mattress pad, I think you will see that they are not all that expensive, and the foam is flame retardant as well.

The super cheap cheapest place to get foam, is from a placea that sells wholesale packing supplies. You can usually get very nice gray convoluted packing foam for dirt cheap. Though this foam is not as flame retardant as mattress or upholstery foam. I know these places exists, but I haven't really been able to find a good source in the UK. These are usually places that sell bulk cardboard and wood boxes for commercial shipping.

Again, it sounds like you are already on the right track, and what you've done so far has been FREE FREE, can't complain about FREE. So, these are just some suggestion of you would want to experiment further.

So, at this point, are you satisfied with the gain you've gotten, or are the speaker still not up to your standards?

I'm actually somewhat stunned. You originally had the speakers with 1.5 Ft behind and 2.5 Ft to the side. I would have guessed that would be more than enough. I've not personally heard the Quads, but I know my JBL, which are bass heavy speaker to start with, really needed 2 feet or more behind to stop the bass from overpowering everything.

I'm curious if any one else has had any experience with this speaker, and did you also find the need for lots of free space around the speaker???

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Like to ask if adding Musical Fidelity used A3CR power amp and use NAD 326 as preamp would significatly open up the QUADs
No, it won't "significatly open up the QUADs". You'd be better of spending whatever cash you have sorting out the room and source.

The V-DAC is a good solution for a PC (laptop) source at a sensible price, and can be recommended.
 
Well finally speakers settled at 2 Ft behind and 3 Ft from the side. Thats as much space I could give with my current furniture setting .Quads 22l2 sure hate walls ! They also need empty space around else it's affect the stereo image.

I am getting close to the kinda of sound I was hoping. After long time I enjoyed the music yesterday.

As per Mark's advise , Amp upgrade plans are on hold . I will sort out source and rest of the things.

I am going ahead with V-DAC . Also many recommended to try copper wire instead of silver. So going to order "Van Damme Professional Blue Series Studio 2.5mm" .



Cheers
Sameer
 
BlueWizard, Thanks about info. on packing foam. I may not try it now but I will keep in mind.
 
UPDATE :

-Van Damme Cables proved to be bright in my setup. So switched back to QED silver cable.

-Now I have V-DAC as source connected to laptop. Even Spotify 128kbps sounds great. Significant improvement over Sony mp3 player.


Would like to ask about how NAD c326bee Amplifier sounds with old songs . I played some old songs(indian cinema of 1950's) . It's not very enjoyable . I know many will say it's because of poor recording quality.
But when I listen same songs using sony mp3player - m-audio AV40's . it's sounds sweet . Vocals and intruments are more natural. Could this be because of NAD c326bee pre-amplification ?
 
You're wandering off topic for this forum,Samstereo.

Perhaps you should try the relevant forum for your Amp specific questions?


K.
 
do you suggest I need to start new top to discuss pre-amp quality of NAD ?

Will do if thats what's needed.


Sam
 
I'm saying that this is the Speakers forum. Other forums exist to discuss other pieces of equipment.

While the whole system results in the sound coming from the speakers and there is inevitably, room for discussion of all equipment that contributes to that sound and the interaction of speakers with it,when it comes to detailed questions about equipment other than speakers then the relevant forum should be used.

K.
 
I played some old songs(indian cinema of 1950's) . It's not very enjoyable . I know many will say it's because of poor recording quality.
My "early Bollywood" song compilation CDs also sound dreadful through my Quad ESLs and kit in my sig. There is nothing you can do about it, it's not an equipment problem - neither the speakers, nor the driving electronics. It also does not "sound sweet" when I run my MP3 rips through my PC speakers - it's just that with the rest of the system being so lousy, you notice the recording quality and limited frequency response issues a bit less. The soundtracks on the DVDs are no better.
 

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