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Lumagen Vision video processor. Opinions?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by ReTrO, Apr 15, 2003.

  1. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    Does anyone have a Lumagen Vision video processor?

    I'm thinking of getting one, but it would be nice to hear from any current owners.

    Thanks
     
  2. CogPaul

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    simply brilliant in terms of performance and value for money. Having owned an iscan pro, quadscan pro and experimented with a hcpc - now I am happy. The easiest way to describe my experience is to say it is akin to having a new high performance cd player and suddenly realising how different your cd's sound. I feel like I have a new dvd collection. Mine was set up by Gordon so can't really comment on ease of installation - but after 2 weeks I would say that the menus are clear and intuitive, picture is excellent, no software glitches or freeze-ups. There is an incredible degree of user adjustment.Have a look on the AVScience forum for many positive comments. Gordon is UK distributer - suggest you speak to him to ask about satisfied customers - my impression was that Gordon has been very busy in the past couple of weeks getting the lumagens out to customers who appear delighted with their purchases. The lumagen site also has pdf copies of the manuals - well worth a read.
     
  3. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    I'll be getting mine direct from Gordon if I do buy one.

    It should be ok to setup with my system, either a 19" CRT monitor or my Barco D600 pj.

    I'll be able to sort it out financially when I have a job sorted for the summer and onwards.
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Thanks Paul,

    Yes it's getting busy. More dealers are being put on every couple of weeks. Not many so far but then I haven't exactly been trying! Waiting for the Key stuff to go see dealers.....

    However, Widescreen Review have just published their review of the product. It should be interesting reading! I have had a short preview of sorts and I can say I AM HAPPY!

    Gordon:)
     
  5. DEO

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    Just a quick question: How well does the Lumagen handle video switching and between how many different AV sources? Alternatively can you use the Amp (denon A1) to do the switching?

    Thanks

    Dave
     
  6. museumsteve

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    dug this thread up after spending a good few days with my new Vision :) and lovin it. I have a denon AVCA1SE and have used the switching on the amp to feed Vision with no problems at all.
    A nice upgrade from the trusty Iscan Pro :)
     
  7. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    I'm seriously looking at a Vision Pro for my Barco Data 600, and any future projector (and I could use it at work if needed:) ).

    Probably go for the Vision Pro because of the many configurable inputs, the RS232, the very convenient BNC's and the lovely rack size case.:D

    Hopefully after next pay day I'll get one.

    (Still gotta get me a car also, maybe I'll have to slash my budget here and also need a screen, but that's cheap.;)).
     
  8. museumsteve

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    well my problem is the fact the Vision scales to 1080p (yummy) but my HS10 wont take it..and we all know what that could mean for the future..and the near future at that :) does it never end.?
     
  9. peter350

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    The Vision is a great product, knocking on the door of a Rock+ (4x the price new) in terms of PQ at a very low price.

    If I'd known just how good it was before I bought it I'd have bought a pro instead.

    IMO It can't really do refresh rates apart from 50 and 60* (lack of proper pulldown and on my pioneer plasma tearing), but this is not a problem in most situations.


    But it does do an excellent artefact free conversion of 50 to 60* if you have a digital display that wants 60hz

    Regards Peter


    * strictly the vision does 59.94hz the exact NTSC refresh
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    aern't refresh rates of 50 and 60 the SIL504 limitation as well?
     
  11. peter350

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    Yes that's how I understand the problem. The SI chip can only output 50 and 60 and no scaler can then reinterpret this to 72 or 75 with the proper pulldown sequence. However for some reason the Lumagen can convert 50 to 60 very well after its been deinterlaced.

    Regards Peter
     
  12. Rob

    Rob
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    I'm also a very happy Lumagen user, after trying out HTPCs, Quadscans, Deuce & Cinematrix scaling options, its by far the best (lower priced) solution I have tried.

    It doesn't have a digital input of course, but on doing some comparisons with the Cinematrix, which should have the same benefits as an SDI connection (better in fact, there is no cable) the difference in sharpness was negligable. I spent a good bit of time looking for the smallest difference, but there really wasn't any. The visions de-interlacing as you would expet was better.

    I'd agree with keeping to 50hz for pal & 60 (59.94) for NTSC, it will handle higher rates, but can drop a frame now and then which is noticeable. There was a firmware update which apparently sorted this out, although I haven't tried it since. Still exeptional value for money though.

    Regards Rob.
     
  13. tbrar

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    Retro :- Buy it , I have had mine less than 24 Hours, fantastic & very flexible. I too have had loads of scalers on eval/demo, ranging from the Zinwell Briteview, Aurora Xtune, HCPC With HOLO3DGRAPH card. Lumagen is fantastic. I am currently trying to tweak to get the most out of it.

    Peter350:- I took delivey & install of my Vision yesterday from Gordon. I notice that you are running it with a Pioneer as well. I am currently running 59.94Hz for all sources. The problem that I am having, is I have had two ouputs calibrated by Gordon (would have had more - but I was going out to dinner !) 1024 x 768 and 720p. I can alter the refresh rate by small amounts, but if I try to change refresh rate to say 50Hz for PAL for example, I loose all settings that were calibrated, ie it switches to a previous memory, consequently I then go back to 59.94 with the calibrated settings, but associated issues on a PAL signal at that refresh rate. Any ideas ?

    Thanks


    Tony
     
  14. peter350

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    Tony,

    I think that's how the Pioneer operates: it will treat 768p/720p at 50hz as different inputs with their own settings.

    I don't know what you mean by pal issues when output at 59.94 as I can't see any artefacts. Its the other way round: pal output at 50hz exhibits chronic face smearing on my Pioneer which is a known Pioneer issue which I can see using the 5002 or an Iscan as well as the lumagen.

    There are other issues as I think all the resolutions save 600p are wrong in some way at 50hz on the pioneer - 768p is not dot by dot but 'type'- 1080i and p are too big and cannot be made small enough- 720p is recognised as 625p but with half chopped off. This again is a Pioneer issue not a lumagen one.

    I currently use 1080p or 720p at 59.94 for both pal and ntsc.

    I prefer 1080p (its marginal).

    I don't use 768p normally because of the well known Pioneer refresh issue. It converts native rate to 70hz refresh and thus there is tearing on fast motion at 50 or 60 input. The lumagen can't output a good 70hz without frame dropping. However this is an area for further experimentation.

    IMHO if you have a calibrated 720p at 60hz you probably have the best the 433 can offer. Mine is not calibrated and the 433 plus the vision at 720p/1080p at 60hz looks pretty damn fine. And that's comparing with a Rock+ at native rate at 70hz which most people would agree is a high standard (though Rocks have other issues like reliabilty).


    Regards Peter
     
  15. tbrar

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    Thanks Peter,

    I have never actually owned a scaler before, so your help is very much appreciated.

    Just to clarify then, should I be putting 59.94Hz as the output refresh rate into the Lumagen, or 60Hz dead on.

    Its interesting re the 70Hz refresh rate issues.

    Regards


    Tony
     
  16. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    It's gonna be at the end of the month that I get one of these at the earliest, after pay day. Good job i've got some money put away or I'd be skint afterwards.
     
  17. peter350

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    Tony, I would say 59.94 as this is correct for ntsc and for pal you are trying to convert so that your Pioneer receives a standard hidef US video standard (720p at 59.94).

    I don't know whether you have read much about the 70hz thing. Basically the current pioneers treat standard video signals (such as 720p or 480p) differently from pc signals (including 1024 x 768 the panel's native rate)*. For the latter the refresh rate is not passed through but converted to 70hz. This is thumpingly problematic for trying to display video material at native rate where it wil be sweetest using a scaler as:

    either you send the panel 50 or 60 hz and have it converted to 70hz by the panel which produces tearing on fast motion;

    or you send the panel 70hz but hardly any scalers including the vision can do this properly without tearing or juddering.

    Hence Aurora who make add-on cards for the Pioneers address the panel at 720p or 1080i. Experience shows me so far it is best to do something similar with the Vision.


    Key digital reckon their card will overcome these problems but its not out yet.


    Regards Peter

    *You can see this difference between video and pc signals in the Pioneer's menus.


    Only an amateur geek but I do find this stuff interesting:)
     
  18. Rob

    Rob
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    I wouldn't have thought any display would look right at 70hz, although I'll wait for somebody more knowlegabe to comment. It doesn't fit. When using a PC, I ran PAL at either 50 or 75Hz, and NTSC at 59.94 and 71.928 (think those figures are correct, it was a fair while ago) 2 or 3 times thier native rate.

    For the Vision you can have upto 2 seperate memory configurations for each input ,MEMA and MEMB. I have mine setup for 59.94 on A and 50 for B. Each one is independant, so you can change the display to suit either PAL or NTSC and simply swich between the two. (don't forget to save though). Very simple.

    Regards Rob.
     
  19. tbrar

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    Peter350,

    Im just wondering, if Im putting in 720/1080p. The Pioneers scaler obviously kicks in.

    Does this explain why when I am trying to shrink the output picture (when on 720/1080p), ie getting shot of overscan, the display seems to revert back to its own internal settings?

    I am using the Widescreen enhanced resolution pattern on Avia, I shrink the image down, save. All seems well.

    I then switch outputs a couple of times, check back to the pattern and the image seems to gave grown again!!!

    Please advise !


    Tony
     
  20. peter350

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    Tony,

    I currently use IN-size command on the Lumagen to get the image down to 3% overscan before the command is maxed out. I am not saying this is the best way and I propose to experiment with OUT-size and the various other settings as well, including those on the 433.

    However once saved on the Lumagen there shouldn't be any automatic undoing and I do not have the problem you identify. The pattern will always be the same after changing inputs although I think you have to use the size-in command for each resolution on the Lumagen you wish to use.

    Based on you description it is the Lumagen settings which aren't sticking. Do the numerical values in whatever size command you are using go back to the default?

    regards Peter

    Like you say there is a lot of tweaking which can be done with the Lumagen (which is a good thing)
     
  21. tbrar

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    Thanks Peter,

    It would appear that they do.

    Im now going to try again - I think I may have been using the OUT controls.

    Also Peter, what are you doing for TV, ie Sky or Freeview, Analouge ?


    Tony
     
  22. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Peter,

    I have just done it again using INPUT.

    The lowest size that I can get is 174 x 177 ????, does that sound right?

    It does look about 3% overscan, cant get it any lower however.

    The reason I ask about the TV input, as trying to get in centred correctly is driving me mad. Its alot easier with a test DVD !!


    Tony
     
  23. peter350

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    Yes


    Yes that's what I have got. Like I say I am going to play with this in terms of OUT- size etc but 3% is fine for the moment


    In terms of position I also used Avia and I found in-pos was best at 0,0,0,0 or close once in-size was at 174x177. It also seemed right for my TV input which is Sky.

    Can you get the IN-size values to stay stuck?

    Regards Peter
     
  24. tbrar

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    Peter,

    Yes I can get the IN values to stay as they should. Everything that I am running from DVD is either 1024 x 768 or 1080p - refresh rate at 59.94Hz. These are all at:- 0,0,0,0 & 174 x 177.

    However I have an issue as my freeview box Nokia Media Master 221-T, has other ideas about its IN settings. The way I am trying to get around this is to run TV at 720p. Then have its own settings, within the Lumagen & on the panel, so that I can centre as best as possible.

    Its a bit tricky getting it just right, but I am sure theres an easier way than I am doing.

    I think the box gives me an option as to the RGB output posistion from it. However, I am unsure whether this relates to just on screen graphics or picture aswell. Ill try tommorow as I am a bit tired.

    Cheers


    Tony
     
  25. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Rob,

    What are you using the Lumagen with may I ask?

    Ive been trying 50Hz this morning with PAL Sources (TV) and it wasn't to pretty !, I think I witnessed some of that tearing thats been mentioned.

    However 59.94 seemed to be doing an excellent job for NTSC, even when running at 1024 x 768 native, so unsure as to what the next step is for PAL, or indeed what this means.... :confused:.


    Tony
     
  26. peter350

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    Tony,

    The 50hz problems you have are Pioneer issues. I am sure the Lumagen is great for 50 and 60hz normally.

    I find 50hz unwatchable on my 433 because of smearing especially on lower quality and non- film material. However this is so using the Pioneer's built in inputs and an Iscan as well as the Lumagen.

    I can't vouch for the Iscan ultra which many use as I haven't seen one.

    It has always struck me as odd that so many use the Pioneer at 50hz with the built in inputs wihtout complaint, but perhaps their units don't smear like mine does or perhaps I am particularly susceptible.

    So I would say you use 59.94 output for pal. I appreciate it seems counter-intuitive but the Lumagen does a great 50 to 59.94 conversion and the Pioneer wants 59.94 generally (in my view).

    Regards Peter
     
  27. tbrar

    tbrar
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    Peter,

    Been experimenting a great deal this morning. I agree with PAL at 50Hz, theres a definate issue. :eek:

    Odd that ...........

    Now I also tried 75Hz this morning. The issue that I am having is I have had 75Hz with PAL running on my panel with superlative results using Rob Screene's (HCPC Forum) PC the other week. However, this does not seem to be the case with the Lumagen.

    For the moment 59.94 is a good fit for both, in fact I have no issues with it at all for NTSC material. But I am sure there is a better rate for PAL - I think its just a case of trial and error and finding that sweet spot between the Lumagen and the panel. I may give the manufacturers a shout for any tips.

    On a seperate note, have you downloaded & installed the new firmware yet?.

    Cheers


    Tony
     
  28. peter350

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    Tony,

    The lumagen can't really do 75hz or 72hz despite what it says in the manual as the the silicon image chip can't be used as the platform for a conversion 50 to 75 or 60 to 72.

    In any event the pioneer will tear at 75!


    I doubt you will find a better refresh than 59.94 or 50 as if you feed the pioneer anything else it recognises it as pc signal and you have the 70hz refresh conversion.

    Thus on pioneer plasmas

    50 = smearing
    59.94 = good but not at native rate
    70/72= good at native rate but hardly any scalers can do it properly.
    75= tearing on fast motion

    However if you find any other good refreshes or resoutions definitely let me know please.

    Regards Peter

    I am looking forward to the new firmware but I am waiting for Gordon to get back to me about selling me a dongle.
     
  29. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Peter: The dongle for yo is coming in next shipment due end of week or early next week.

    Gordon
     
  30. Rob

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    Tony,

    I use the Vision with a Barco 1609 which looks fine for PAL @ 50Hz. The latest firmware I believe can be set to lock at 50/60 for PAL & NTSC, although I haven't tried it yet. It also includes a chroma filter should you need it, which I do. I'm still having a small problem with Macrovision though, which I thought it would sort out, but its still there. :confused:

    Regards Rob.
     

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