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Lumagen Radiance Mini 3D_What to expect

Anbjorn

Standard Member
I have been considering buying a Lumagen Radiance Mini 3D.
How much would you say I will benefit in picture quality with the Lumagen?

My setup:
Digital satelite tuner: Dreambox DM8000HD outputting 720p-60Hz
Some channels in SD and some in HD.

AV Receiver with 1.4 HDMI switching: Harman Kardon AVR660 upscaling TV signals to 1080p-60Hz
This one also have the latest firmware with 3D compability.

TV: Panasonic 65"VT50.

Thanks
 

Enigma

Standard Member
Some of the forum members, including myself, went to the TPS meet up on Saturday and we got to see a 55" VT50 hooked up to a calibrated Lumagen mini and it absolutely bowled me over, so much so that I bought one along with a 55" VT50. You would definitely have to demo one in-store somewhere because they're not cheap and only you can decide whether the difference in picture quality is worth the money.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
For one thing, you'll need to turn OFF any upscaling in your amp as it will not be as good as the Lumagen. :)

Secondly, just putting a Mini3D into your signal path will NOT magically improve the picture. Sure it has some noise reduction features (that I personally never use) and 6 way sharpness/detail enhance type controls (that equally I have on very low settings or at 0 depending on source and input resolution).

The main benefit from using the Mini3D is that you can calibrate your display to 21 points of greyscale (and IMHO more importantly gamma), plus it can apply CMS to the colour content to cure oversaturated colours (step forward JVC projectors. ;)). If your display is undersaturated (not very common, but still...) then it can't 'add' saturation to the gamut.

There are a myriad of minor adjustments for image position, cropping, etc (especially useful when used with a projector). All of these can be linked to a specific input memory (one of 4 'virtual' inputs too) and even down to what the input resolution is: For example you could have more sharpness applied to input 1A when it is coming from a DVD at 576i and then when the disc is changed for a BluRay the sharpness setting can be set differently and you don't need to change anything or press any buttons.

However, IMHO you will only get something out of a Mini3D (apart from the excellent upscaling) if you can calibrate yourself or you employ someone like Gordon to do it for you.

Hope that helps.

[PS. For the lurkers in another thread I'm not selling my Mini3D, just because I've lost interest in my projector].
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
Thank you for your answers.
Yes I have read about the TPS meet. It would have been great to be there. However I am in Scandinavia so the distance was "slightly" too long :).

Unfortunatly I have not found anyone who can do a full calibration of my TV yet. Seems calibrators a few and far apart.
So when it comes to calibrating the TV and the Lumagen I suspect that I have to give it a try myself.
Any tip for how to do it yourself calibration whithout having to spend a fortune in equipment?

I assumed I have to switch off the upscaling in the AVR. The easiest thing is to just set it to match input signal.
There is also some upscaling from the satelite tuner, whitch I can not switch off.
So the satelite signal will allways be 720p-60Hz even on SD channels.
Will that be some kind of drawback for the Lumagen?

For the second physical input of the Lumagen I was thinking connecting a PC.

Sorry for the noob questions, but I am alittle new at this :)
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
I had a PC connected to my second input and it worked great. The Mini3D will be able to upscale the 720p output from your Sat box, just that you won't get the full benefit as I do from letting it upscale (and deinterlace) from 576i/480i. The Mini3D has a feature that can correct badly deinterlaced signals so it will still help you to a degree. It helps if your BluRay player allows 'Source Direct' so that it outputs whatever resolution is on the disc and leaves the Mini3D to upscale and deinterlace as necessary. I happen to use an Oppo BDP93 but other players have a 'Source Direct' option.

Regarding calibration, I have a more basic i1 LT sensor (also known as a D2). I understand there is another model available which is a step up from mine for around the £100-150 mark IIRC. I use Chromapure software as it has some neat real time measurement abilities which saves me lots of time being able to adjust greyscale and gamma in the same 'window' which saves lots of back and forth adjustments that I found with the (free) software I used previously (HFCR).

Read the 'Calibration for dummies' thread in the calibration section to get an idea of what's involved:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/room-acoustics-audio-video-calibration/760012-greyscale-calibration-dummies.html

Be aware that it is a very steep learning curve and though I'm confident with the displays I currently have, there is much to take in. Once you've learnt it then you'll be able to calibrate other displays you own/buy in the future.

You should also try not to get too sucked into producing 'perfect' reports as there is some drift with the cheaper sensors (and displays themselves) and don't lose sight of why you bought the display in the first place: I have to a degree and now find that there is very little I'm interested in watching on my projector these days, so I've been trying to sell it and may end up giving it away to a relative...
 
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Anbjorn

Standard Member
Gordon,
Sure will.
Sending you a PM
Thanks:smashin:

I will be away for about 10 days so I will maybe not be able to reply here.

anbjorn. if you let me know where you are in scandinavia i may be able to find you someone with experience of lumagen and calibrations
 
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fredman2005

Standard Member
@Anbjorn
With the DM8000 and the right firmware you can change the output resolution. Search for the autoresolution plugin and become comfort with it.
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
I am now waiting to receive a Lumagen Mini 3D. Already received a Display 3 PRO and ChromaPure with the auto calibrate option.
I have found that my sat tuner can output 480i, 576i, 1080i, 480p, 576p and 720p in 50 or 60Hz.
What would be the best resolution to send to the input of the Lumagen? 1080i/60Hz?
Thanks.
Anbjorn
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Is your SAT tuner HD? If so then output at 1080i and let the Mini3D deinterlace. If it's SD then output at 480/576i (whatever is the native in your area) and let the Mini3D upscale and deinterlace.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I have found that my sat tuner can output 480i, 576i, 1080i, 480p, 576p and 720p in 50 or 60Hz.

Does your sat tuner have an "auto" output type feature like SkyHD that changes the output resolution based on the native content i.e. SD content output @ 576, HD content output @ 1080i ?

Ideally SD content should be output at native resolution to benefit from the de-interlacing (or re-interlacing if SD is limited to progressive output) and scaling offered by the Lumagen. If you choose a fixed output such as 1080i for all content SD will be more heavily processed by the Sat box i.e. de-interlaced, scaled, re-interlaced etc. This will negate some of the the benefits of using a VP.

What would be the best resolution to send to the input of the Lumagen? 1080i/60Hz?

Ideally the refresh should match the native source refresh to avoid frame rate conversion i.e. PAL 50hz, NTSC 59.94hz. The exception being film content offered at 1080i/60 (59.94) that would benefit from IVTC to 1080p/24(23.976) avoiding additional motion judder. In this case output would need some manual user intervention to avoid processing any 1080i/60 video content incorrectly which may be messy.

Avi
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
The sat tuner is HD, but it does not have an auto output for the resolution. However it has a option of 50Hz, 60Hz, or Multi for the refresh rate. Then I assume Multi will be like an Auto function so that the output follows the input?
But I would also think that sinse we have PAL here, 50Hz would be the correct choice. What is the native resolution I have no clue about.

Up to now I have allways used 720p/60Hz output from the sat tuner to the AVR660, then upscaling to 1080p/60Hz with the AVR660 to the TV. Quite desent PQ actually.

As there is a mix of channels with different resolution in HD and SD I need to make the right choice for what to send from my sat tuner.
It looks to me based on your replies that 1080i/50Hz or 576i/50Hz from the sat tuner, and HDMI Bypass in the AVR660 to the Lumagen is the way to go.
I will try to post the results. Need to set up a good camera also :)
Yeah, and I almost forgot.... The Lumagen just arrived :thumbsup:

Thank you all for your recommendations.
Anbjorn
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
When you used 720/60p did you notice any juddering or odd movement? If you have PAL and it is transmitted at 50Hz then I would expect to see some judder. If not then perhaps PAL is transmitted at 60Hz in your country? Easy enough to check of course, plus the Mini3D can be set to 'track' the input frequency so that you don't change the refresh rate (unless you specifically force it to by setting it up that way). I have 1080/60p from PC and 1080/50i from a HD PVR going to the same input on my Mini3D via an auto switching device and get 1080/60p on screen for the PC and 1080/50p for the PVR.
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
When you used 720/60p did you notice any juddering or odd movement? If you have PAL and it is transmitted at 50Hz then I would expect to see some judder. If not then perhaps PAL is transmitted at 60Hz in your country? Easy enough to check of course, plus the Mini3D can be set to 'track' the input frequency so that you don't change the refresh rate (unless you specifically force it to by setting it up that way). I have 1080/60p from PC and 1080/50i from a HD PVR going to the same input on my Mini3D via an auto switching device and get 1080/60p on screen for the PC and 1080/50p for the PVR.

Well, I usually upscale the signal to 720p/60Hz in the sat tuner, and then from 720p/60Hz to 1080p/60Hz in the AVR. So to be honest I can't realy say for sure.

Just found out that PAL is transmitting @ 50Hz here.
So then I have that part sorted
 
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Avi

Distinguished Member
Well, I usually upscale the signal from 720p/60Hz in the sat tuner, and then from 720p/60Hz to 1080p/60Hz in the AVR. So to be honest I can't realy say for sure.

If you set your sat box to "multi" the Lumagen will report the input frame rate it's receiving. If the sat box "multi" setting accurately sets output frame rate to reflect the native material this should provide the answer.

Avi
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
If you set your sat box to "multi" the Lumagen will report the input frame rate it's receiving. If the sat box "multi" setting accurately sets output frame rate to reflect the native material this should provide the answer.

Avi

Jepp, just tested it. "Multi" will set the output to match the input of 50Hz.
Just watched some Olympics outputting 720p/50Hz from sat tuner and upscaling with the AVR to 1080p/50Hz.
I can not spot any difference compared to 60Hz.

Anbjorn
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Jepp, just tested it. "Multi" will set the output to match the input of 50Hz.
Just watched some Olympics outputting 720p/50Hz from sat tuner and upscaling with the AVR to 1080p/50Hz.
I can not spot any difference compared to 60Hz.

Anbjorn

It's usually pretty easy to spot once you know how it affects the image and it may be more prominent on certain types of material. That said some people become conditioned to motion artefacts and it may become less of an issue.

I find artefacts from 50hz>59.94hz FRC performed by the Lumagen pretty noticeable. YMMV. :)

Avi
 

Coolhighend

Standard Member
I use the DM8000 HD together with an iScanDuo. After many testing, my experience is that you should not let the DM8000 do any scaling at all, the quality is ways below my iScan and I don't think that this would be different in your setup.

As fredman2005 mentions earlier in this thread, there is an autoresolution plugin for the Dreambox, and only this is the big quality step.

Install it and set the DM8000 output to the native resolution and the native framerate and do all the processing with your lumagen. It does not make sense to scale first to 720p with a pretty limited scaler and then go to 1080p with a good one.

In my setup, it makes a huge difference.
 

Anbjorn

Standard Member
I use the DM8000 HD together with an iScanDuo. After many testing, my experience is that you should not let the DM8000 do any scaling at all, the quality is ways below my iScan and I don't think that this would be different in your setup.

As fredman2005 mentions earlier in this thread, there is an autoresolution plugin for the Dreambox, and only this is the big quality step.

Install it and set the DM8000 output to the native resolution and the native framerate and do all the processing with your lumagen. It does not make sense to scale first to 720p with a pretty limited scaler and then go to 1080p with a good one.

In my setup, it makes a huge difference.

Thanks,
I did install the autoresolution.
However I don't like the delay and short loss of picture when switching between channels with different resolution.
The switch can also be heard in the loudspeakers.
I will see what happens when I get the Lumagen set up.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Thanks,
I did install the autoresolution.
However I don't like the delay and short loss of picture when switching between channels with different resolution.
The switch can also be heard in the loudspeakers.
I will see what happens when I get the Lumagen set up.


Usually a change in resolution i.e. SD to HD/HD to SD between HDMI linked devices causes an HDMI resync that results in a brief loss of image.
 

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