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Lumagen or Leeza?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by cj, Nov 27, 2003.

  1. cj

    cj
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    Which would you buy, and why?

    Main input sources are TagDVD32 + PSM192 (if needed? What about the DVI output?), XBox, PC (for games and browsing), Sky+.

    Ouputting to a Runco CL710 HD2 DLP.

    I've read loads, but just can't find a direct comparison.
     
  2. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    What do you want to know? Did you see them at The Event 11 where I was showing both?
     
  3. cj

    cj
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    I didn't see them at Event II - I had a ticket, but had to drop out last minute :(

    You use a Lumagen Pro S - why didn't you get a Leeza? Can I use the DVI output from my PSM192 straight into a Leeza, and if so, will this give me any benefit? Does the Leeza still have problems with PAL sources?

    I know a lot of these questions are a bit subjective, and a "better" picture is largely down to personal preference, but I'm just trying to work out whether or not the Leeza is worth the extra investment. Just after some opinions really.

    Have you compared a SDI modded DVD player with using a TagDVD32 via analogue?
     
  4. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    We had Lumagen, Lumagen Vision pro and HD Leeza at the event with the latter two 'under' my wing.

    Both the HD Leeza and Lumagen I feel offer better performance than the Tag, even the baby Lumagen (and I own Tag as you know)

    The best picture we managed was SDI HD Leeza (or HD HD Leeza). This was certainly better than lumagen (which I seriously rate as bing top of the pile along with Rock)

    I haven't tried PSM192 DVI to HD Leeza but it 'might' be possible, read my digital interface thread though for more stuff though. I am not sure if it helps you any though. I am experriment with 720p from a HCPC into the Leeza at the moment (without much luck). I think the problem here is me, not the kit!!

    My SDI player (used at the event in the scaler room) is better than my Tag DVD32R for pictures. The differences are small in the global scheme but they are definately there (full praise to excellent analogue engineering in the Tag here). Audio, Tag is in a several different leagues!! But an Arcam SDI......

    At the event we showed SDI and component from my cheap panny into the Lumagen pro, I prefered the SDI each time but I think it fair to say most found the differences smaller than they were expecting. I think this might be down to the short time I had available and 'experience' looking at the pictures.

    Re PAL issues, KD are working on it (I hope!!) but even with the 'issues' the KD is a bit special but I would have been VERY happy with the Lumagen, really down to budget.....The KD HD Leeza used for the Event 11 was my own, bought with my hard earned money, never regretted it for a minute, it is an amazing device....HD role on.......

    let me know if you need any more
     
  5. cj

    cj
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    Thanks for your comments Beekeeper. I have considered buying the Arcam SDI - I wish I didn't like Tag so much. Can you give me a quick (and simple :)) summary of the Leeza PAL 'issues'? I watch a lot of PAL broadcasts (via Sky+), and have a few R2 DVDs.

    It's a tough one as the Leeza and the Lumagen Pro S both have a lot of fans.
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    HD-Leeza does not do 2:2 pulldown accurately enough on PAL material. I think the problem may be it's cadence detection is too strong but MikeT has seen what I consider are the issues and is working on it. I use mine at home doing 50 to 60 frame rate conversion. It's video de-interlacing algorithm seems fine. NTSC/480i and HD is excellent.

    You should also be aware that the functionality of the HD-Leeza is not as simple or flexible as Lumagen. I hope they resolve that as well.

    Gordon

    I too feel even a basic Vision outperforms the PSM module in the TAG.

    The HDL doesn't accept 576P@50 via DVI. Key Digital are aware of this and it is on their TO DO list...
     
  7. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I think Gordon has pretty well sum'ed it all up. Though I have never tried it a SDI Arcam 27 and a HD Leeza may well be a killer combo (and remember I also have a Tag at home and love it as well)

    I have no doubt KD will sort these issues out, to me it isn't important, just likje the odd bug in Tag software, you know they will do it and it is a dodle to upgrade just like the Tag
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    there a at least a couple of other guys out there in the same boat as you and we demo'd this stuff for them at the event, if they are around perhaps they could pass another comment?
     
  9. cj

    cj
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    What would this mean for my Sky viewing?
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    It means on film source material you would see artifacts. Film source material being most US and UK scripted studio based programming (ie Angel, StarTrek, Morse..etc) With Footie or News at 10 which are video source it's not such an issue

    Gordon
     
  11. cj

    cj
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    Would I still see these artifacts if the Sky feed into the Leeza is from my PSM module (component), assuming I could use the component feed from the PSM module? Are these PAL issues definitely being addressed?

    The Leeza has a more impressive array of inputs - more future proof?
     
  12. Plump

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    I do not think KD will correct it ever. Maybe in a newer model.
    The troubles are there for too long. I feel it is same old story again and again. Look what happens with Pioneer card too.

    That , and only that, is the reason I went for Lumagen.

    Sorry Gordon I feel it that way

    Kastrup
     
  13. Chris Bellamy

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    I’m needing a deinterlacer/scaler too (not keen on HCPC, which is probably my loss); I want 1080i deinterlacing, so that means HD Leeza or nothing else for under silly money. However, my understanding is that the output resolutions are still severely restricted (cant output 960p or 864p for example) –maybe that’s been corrected. If you don’t want HD deinterlacing or are happy to wait a bit for the air to clear, then the Lumagen is a no-brainer. See also Greg Roger's rave review (he's difficult to please) of the Lumagen for widescreen review mag.

    Other non-available options for HD deinterlacing/processing: Assimilator is maybe coming – that looks interesting, and I’m really holding out a tiny bit longer just in case. The very interesting TAW Rock Pro is said to be coming with a HD deinterlacer, but no time scale I’m aware of for that. Some have had issues with the company in the past: I’ve no idea whether that’s relevant now or not. Also the CSO on the Tag website finally admitted that they are beginning work on a HD deinterlacer for their VSM2048 scaler that you can only buy in the expensive AV192. No timescale for that. Interesting aside that Richard A at Event 2 suggested that S&W are to decide whether to renew interest in the HC market for ‘upper medium market’ video processors (I’m guessing 10-15K machines), which would be fantastic if I become rich: anyway that is medium term not short term, and not even definite, and still pricey! …

    It seems pretty clear that HD Leeza is an excellent deinterlacer/reinterleaver of 480i or 1080i film by any standards. Mark H on AVS compared it favourably with Faroudja’s top machine in this department, but not so favourably for scaling. Gordon, Beekeeper and Elliot have critical eyes and are very complementary, so that counts for a lot with me. I liked it at the Event 2, but didn’t get to spend as much time as I would have liked (my fault). 576i film seems problematic, and that’s personally a sticking point until I know that they are definitely addressing the issues.

    HDL cannot reliably (it seems) output 480i/1080i film-based material at 48Hz: this in itself is disappointing because I hate 2:3 judder, and as far as I know there’s a bit of a shortage of 30Hz film, apart from 30Hz film to video shows like Friends (yuk), or 30Hz films like the Todd AO version of Oklahoma (which is on R1 DVD with a 2:2 transfer from the 30Hz film – how well does HDL handle that?). It also indicates to my pretty ignorant understanding of all this that HDL is not able to fully deinterlace what’s on the discs to the original 24Hz, since then 48Hz output would be a doddle: I have heard report that KD has blamed this on the ubuiquitous ‘bad edits’ [their word] inherent in DVD transfers ie: the machine cant cope with stretches of 2:2 or 3:3:3 or other such “naughty” variants that lie scattered within the vast majority of 480i 2:3 material, and is thrown out of synch, hence the HDL needs to be frame-locked to 60Hz for successful viewing of 480i or 1080i sources, where these difficult stretches are presumably simply crashed through without proper deinterlacing until the 2:3 sequence is resumed in the source material. Maybe this speculation is all nonsense, and I’d appreciate corrections. Having said that, I’m not sure that any video processor short of broadcast cost is very good with these problems.

    Sorry, no answers! Myself, I’m tossing between Lumagen and wait, versus HDL…

    Chris
     
  14. cj

    cj
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    Thanks for all your replies - although I've still not made a decision. I "want" to get a HDL, but the PAL issues are a worry. The Lumagen seems a great buy, but doesn't seem as future proof with its input and output connections. Think I'll just wait and see what develops...
     
  15. tedy

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    I have a Pioneer 503 HDE, DVD 32FLR and AV32r DP.I have connected the DVD 32FLR to my Pioneer through component. If I buy a Lumagen and connect it to the VGA input of the Pioneer and do a 50 Hz to 60 Hz conversion , would that make a great improovement in picture quality or should I not bother?
     
  16. Jonesthegas

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  17. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Glad you liked it :) I also have no worries re KD. mind you I say the same about Lumagen ;)
     
  18. Jonesthegas

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    Nic,

    In that demo, what resolution did you run the Leeza at? My recollection was that it was 960P but, after reading the thread above, it seems that it doesn't output at that resolution?

    I'm keen on buying the 1209s. What is its best resolution and does the Leeza do it?

    Martin
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I think it was 720p and the lumagen 960p, we tried to ring the changes a little :)
     
  20. cj

    cj
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    Well going by KD's obvious indifference for the PAL problems and CRT (see the thread on AVS), I think it's gonna have to be a Lumagen. I really wanted a Leeza, but who ever is making those posts from KD has made the decision for me.
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I am astounded by Michael Lakters post at AVS. I will be investigating what he's said when I get a chance.

    Gordon
     
  22. Jonesthegas

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    After the scaler room at event 2, I'd set my heart on a Leeza. However, the demo was region 1. The guys at KD seem uninterested in CRT owners and potential users from PAL zones. Extraordinary and bizarre.

    The lumagen or HTPC now seem more inviting. I've got 6 months before I have to pick. I sincerely hope by then that the get their act together.

    I've seen the Rock Lite advertised for a similar price to the Leeza. I wonder what the pros and cons of this are relative to the Leeza, I know little about them?

    Martin
     
  23. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    not just me then :(
     
  24. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Rock Lite is more competitor to cheaper scalers like CS-1 and Vision. It has issues like all these things. Best to demo before buying.

    I am confident that in 6 months time we will have a good choice of products.......

    Gordon
     
  25. Andrew Lack

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    What is it that Michael Lakters has said?
     
  26. Plump

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    that they don't give a **** about PAL
    they want to try it on non-existing products and IF it works they might start thinking about implementation on existing products

    they need someone to explain them there is world outside of ntsc area
     
  27. Jenz

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    I can show you a better Scaler than the Leeza for PAL. Have references available :)

    Regards Jenz.
     
  28. Dutch

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    I'm glad I went with the Lumagen on Gordon's advice. :smashin:

    Steve
     
  29. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Neil,

    Which of your customers has a Leeza for comparison and when did you get one for comparison as a matter of interest. I don't doubt you, just interested in how you came to your conclusion.


    Andrew,

    Key Digital's representative Michael Lakter has said that the first product they expect to ship with functioning PAL capability is the plug in board for the Pioneer plasma's or the HD Hanna (which is a HD-Leeza without HD scaling). These are scheduled for 2nd quarter 2004 it seems. They then say they will look at implimenting this in the HD-Leeza after that dependant on demand. This is completly contrary to what they have been saying for last 6 months.

    Gordon
     
  30. cj

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    Exactly what Plump stated "that they don't give a **** about PAL" :) A lucky escape - I was so close to buying a HDL.
     

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