1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

LOTR FOTR anal retentive anorak trivia...........

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Setenza, Aug 8, 2002.

  1. Setenza

    Setenza
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +226
    I don't care. I was just perusing the afore mentioned title on my laptop to take some suitable screen captures and I noticed yet another example of Mr Jackson including subtle details from the book.

    Namely, when the fellowship is attempting to cross Caradhras, all the group are knee or waist deep in snow except for Legolas who walks on top of the respective drift making little or no impression upon it.

    F*cking excellent.

    Go on. Be an anorak and add some more that you spotted. There is no shame.
     
  2. Bert Coules

    Bert Coules
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,268
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +158
    I can tell you one tiny detail which I *didn't* spot in the movie; I wonder if it's there?

    It's one of Tolkien's neatest throwaway puns: Hobbits live in holes, right? And the Mayor of Hobbiton lives - where else? - in the Town Hole...

    Bert
    www.bertcoules.co.uk
     
  3. Setenza

    Setenza
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +226
  4. Paden

    Paden
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2000
    Messages:
    572
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +19
    I haven't read the books (didn't notice it in the film either) so don't understand the significance of this.
    I could see he shoots a mean arrow but why can he walk on top of the snow, is it an elvish thing? (uh, huh, huh...thank you very much)

    Cheers, Paul
     
  5. Zone

    Zone
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    6,736
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Barnsley
    Ratings:
    +2,424
    Paden
    Its definately an Elvish thing, that and night vision, not as good as Dwarves night vision though, or so I've been told
    :rolleyes: :D
     
  6. Bert Coules

    Bert Coules
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,268
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +158
    One of the faults of the movie is that it fails to show that the Elves are an entirely different race from the humans and the hobbits, with entirely different characteristics, beliefs and physical natures.

    Logolas just looked and sounded like a slightly odd man. Quite wrong.

    Bert
    www.bertcoules.co.uk
     
  7. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    Maybe that will be addressed in the extended version.
     
  8. Sinzer

    Sinzer
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2002
    Messages:
    5,823
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,117
    Anorak on

    I thought elves were very similar to humans in terms of basic characteristics. Read LOTR a few times now and never felt that Tolkien described the elves as being totally different to humans in appearance (in fact they were reasonably closely related hence why humans and elves would get it on, never heard of a dwarven elfling :p).

    I thought Legolas looked very elfish, although not to the extent of Galadriel etc. Simply showing Rivendell and Lothlorien you could tell that the elves were far advanced and more in tune with nature than the human incarnations of Grondor and Isengard.

    My biggest bugbear is the horse chase with Arwen, that should have been Glorfindel kicking some butt. Not to mention the horse chase was extremely badly cut together IMO.

    Anorak off
     
  9. Paden

    Paden
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2000
    Messages:
    572
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +19
    Hello again!

    When the fellowship enter Moria, Legolas identifies the type of arrow that had slayed the Dwarves as being Goblin.
    Later on however it's Orcs who attack. Is there a reason for this?
    I understand that Sarumans army is made from crossing Orcs with Goblins, does this have any relevance?

    Cheers, Paul
     
  10. andyk

    andyk
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2001
    Messages:
    769
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +166
    Orcs and Goblins are the same thing.

    Tolkien used the term goblin in the Hobbit and orc in LOTR. They are however the same animal, made by Morgoth in imitation of the elves (oh dear my anorak is well and truly in evidence now.)
     
  11. dfield2000

    dfield2000
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    957
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +5
    If Orcs and Goblins are the same thing then how come they were crossed to create a new breed of creature that could move in daylight and travel fast etc. ?
     
  12. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    Orcs were crossed with wild men not goblins if I remeber correctly.:)
     
  13. dfield2000

    dfield2000
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    957
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +5
    I thought he said 'Orcs with Goblin Men', but you might be right. I'll have to check it out when I get back from work
     
  14. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    In the books it's either wild men or hill men or something like that. There described as sort of like Neanderthals. Xusia Of Delos or Bert Coules will probably know for sure.
     
  15. Glasswalker

    Glasswalker
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    He did indeed say 'Orcs with Goblin men'.
     
  16. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    What can I say.:(
     
  17. dfield2000

    dfield2000
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    957
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +5
    I'm pretty sure that before the fight starts in Moria that Sean Beans character says that there are Goblins approaching accompanied with a troll. However, Frodo's sword starts to glow, as Bilbo said it would on the presence of Orcs.

    This suggests that Orcs are the same as Goblins, so how could they be crossed together if they are the same thing.

    I'm confused.
     
  18. Glasswalker

    Glasswalker
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    It did confuse me. Well, I started reading the books again anyway so I'll see what they say. Maybe I'll watch the DVD again this week to. oh, it such a hard life.
     
  19. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    Found this Here. http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

    Goblins/Orc
    Is there a difference between an 'Orc' and a 'Goblin'? The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)." (Hence the statement above; 'especially the smaller kinds'). This entry concentrates on the goblins of the Grey and Misty Mountains simply because it is these Orcs that Tolkien most frequently refers to by the term 'goblin'

    Sorts that one out.

    Goblin Men.
    Creatures created by Saruman, apparently by blending the races of Orcs and Men. Precisely what they were is mysterious - they are only ever mentioned once by name, during the Battle of the Hornburg - but they seem to be distinct from half-orcs, and rather more Man-like.

    Term Goblin men should not have been in the film untill the Two Towers. Peter Jackson taking a few liberties me thinks

    Uruk-Hai.
    The great soldier-Orcs that first appeared in the late Third Age; they were larger and stronger than their forebears, and could withstand the light of the Sun.

    Screen play seems a bit confused by the look of it.
     
  20. dfield2000

    dfield2000
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    957
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +5
    So the creatures in the last fight sequence (where sean bean cops it) are the Uruk-Hai or the goblin men ?
     
  21. Bert Coules

    Bert Coules
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,268
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +158
    I agree that the screenplay does skate somewhat over the goblin/orc business; and yes, the variant introduced near the end is surely the Uruk-Hai (or "fighting Uruk-Hai" as they're often described in the books, suggesting maybe that there's a pacifist branch somewhere.)

    Even there, the film isn't entirely clear; I thought at first that Saruman had produced only one individual Uruk-Hai - the chap who's clearly bigger, nastier and fiercer than the rest - but I'm inclined to believe that he's just the leader.

    I think I heard Saruman actually refer to his forces as "my fighting Uruk-Hai" at one point, but I wouldn't swear to it.

    Bert
    www.bertcoules.co.uk
     
  22. Paden

    Paden
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2000
    Messages:
    572
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +19
    I'm glad it looks as though it might be an inconsistency in the script as it was doing my head in a bit!
    Out of three & a half hours you can allow for one or two mistakes I guess.
    When a film's so good you expect/assume it to be perfect.
    Which reminds me...
    In The Matrix (sorry to go off at a tangent!) just after Morpheus is captured & Cypher gets separated from the others, I've never really understood the call he makes to Tank about the lorry accident et al...Anyone??

    Cheers, Paul
     
  23. kevb

    kevb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,099
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    About
    Ratings:
    +3
    Right this is my take on the film. I got to this conclusion from what I remember from reading the books and my Interpretation of them.

    In the film Goblin men are Uruk-Hai. In the books Uruk-Hai are breeds of soldier Orcs different from normal Orcs. Goblin men are a cross of Orcs and Wild men created by Suraman.

    In the books you don't find out that Suraman is in cahoots with Sauron until the Two Towers, and only then during the Battle of the Hornburg are goblin men motioned, by Gandalf I think.
    The changes in the screenplay are proberbly to simplify things for the average film goer, cut down on the number of unnecessary characters, step up the pace and simplify events in the story.
    You are quite right Bert.
     
  24. Sinzer

    Sinzer
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2002
    Messages:
    5,823
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,117
    The book and film are completely different when it comes down to the attack on the fellowship.

    ****KIND OF SPOILER****

    Saruman was never in cahoots with Sauron in the first book, he was an unwitting pawn who thought to usurp Sauron (he capitulated to Sauron in the second book, but in the first he still thought himself independant). The band of Orcs who defeat Boromir should be a mixture of normal Orc mercenaries (under command from Sauron unbeknownst to Saruman) and the White Hand (who are Sarumans elite guard, cross breds).

    This leads to the next section where certain people escape due to Orc arguments :).


    In general fantasy terms, Goblins and Orcs are the same family, Goblins tend to be defined as smaller yet more intelligent, whereas Orcs are seen to be hulking brutes (and usually darker skin, with the darkest skin being the most ferocious).

    For true Tolkien anoraks the film is very inaccurate in many parts, however for myself I think it conveys the book very well, yet it has been grossly americanised.
     
  25. sweetmate

    sweetmate
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    706
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +51
    Folks its just a book!

    You guys were those weird dudes at school who sat in the corner of the playground reading whilst eveyone else played footy weren't you?!
     
  26. dfield2000

    dfield2000
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    957
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +5
    Sh*t ! We've been found out !

    I think the original title of this thread is a bit of a give away as to the nature of people who discuss the subtle differences of orcs and goblins
     
  27. Rambo John J

    Rambo John J
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2000
    Messages:
    4,555
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Hanoi Hilton
    Ratings:
    +1,682
    I thought it was discussing the joys of not being able to crap!

    You mean there was a book of Lord Of The Rings:eek:
     
  28. Glasswalker

    Glasswalker
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Just a book. How can you say that? It's the best book in the world and it's neat to discuss the various abnormalities between it and the film. The film is still the best film I've seen as well. So best book and best film, not bad eh?
     
  29. mikey

    mikey
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Are these the goblins that make those funny tea making machines you get in cheap bed and breakfast places?
     
  30. Setenza

    Setenza
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +226
    OK full contact anorak mode:

    Goblins is a term used by Tolkien mainly in "The Hobbit". This was a children book hence a somewhat childish term for the creature themselves.

    When Tolkien wrote LOTR, he introduced the word Orc (which is the same speicies as Goblin). They were ruined and corrupted Elves. Infact they were supposed to be the evil opposite of them. Produced through witch craft and eugenics. It is interesting to note that there are no references to gender among Orcs. They seem to be spawned through sorcery. Thus Jackson depiction of Lurtz's birth is rather accurate in my opinion

    Now there are several different breeds of Orcs. Those in the mines of Moria are the smallest and have long arms and short bandy legs. They favour curved scimitar swords. They avoid the daylight.

    The Orcs of Mordor, are larger and have on their armour the symbol of the red eye. This represents the eye of Sauron. They favour more traditional swords and are skilled archers.

    Now Uruks or Uruk Hai, are a cross breeding of Orcs with other non Orc, possibly humans. Sauron has them (it's in the text as they are referred to as black Uruks of Mordor). Saruman's Uruk Hai are cross bred orcs with the wild men from Dunland. Uruks are a result are taller, than normal orcs, more manlike in stature and more able to move about in sunlight. Sarumans orcs and Uruk-Hai used the sign of the white hand on their armour.

    Now in the film the use of the the words Goblins is confusing and should really be ignored. But we do see the difference between the 4 speicies. Moria Orcs. Mordor Orcs (as shown in the prologue sequence), Isengard orcs and the resulting Uruk-Hai hybrids.

    I hope this resolves the issue.
     

Share This Page

Loading...