Looks like TL51 is now real!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by TrevorS, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. TrevorS

    TrevorS
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    Just found this article:

    http://www.screendigest.com/online_services/intelligence/video_and_dvd/updates/vi-060907-ec3/show

    Looks as though it's all over but the compatibility testing -- all fingers and toes crossed :)!
     
  2. ani4ani

    ani4ani
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    It will be interesting to see if they play on all these "complete" players?
     
  3. Jeff

    Jeff
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    I'm sure initial tesing has already been done. My guess is that for it to have got this far they are confident that at least 2nd gen players will be OK.
     
  4. Drongo

    Drongo
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    I seem to recall earlier speculation that TL51 was likely to have compatibility issues with Gen 1 Toshiba’s but not Gen 2 machines.

    I can’t remember how many Gen 1 machines were sold, but I think it was in the region of 30000 players. If there are compatibility issues, maybe Toshiba could placate potentially angry owners with a subsidized trade in scheme for the new Gen 3 players.

    And I hope that if TL51 does come to fruition, that it has 1.5x spin speed….
     
  5. Rasczak

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    Personally I remain unconvinced of the need for HD DVD51. We have had no real space issues with HD DVD30 to date - and compression is only going to get better not worse. As expected studios have preferred to stick with 'two disc' special editions rather than cram it all on one disc anyway - such sets command a higher price premium.

    As for the tri-layer DV/HD DVD affair - again I'm unconvinced. Neither single layer DVD (4.7GB) nor single layer HD DVD (15GB) are enough for most movies. And yet the triple layer forces one to accept the hit - would it be high def or standard def that 'took the hit'. I would suggest it would probably be high def as, even in these early days of VC1/AVC, it wouldn't suffer as much as space limited MPEG2. Therefore I would suggest the flipper HD DVD30/DVD9 combo remains the best option - even if hated by some on these boards.

    That's all very negative of me - sorry! I'll obviously remain open minded until I see how the products turn out. But HD DVD needs to avoid the pitfalls of 'profiles' and therefore compatibility with existing players must be paramount.
     
  6. TrevorS

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    1) NEC claimed the HD-1100A supported TL45.
    2) Supposedly, Toshiba originally bought out Intel of about 70K P4-M 2.5GHz processors. If so, that should be a reasonable indicator of the number of A1/D1/HDV5000 and XA1 players out there.
    3) Not sure what you mean by "if TL51 does come to fruition", the fat lady has sung!
     
  7. TrevorS

    TrevorS
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    Without commenting on the negativity :))), I will mention the DL30 will probably soon be replaced by DL34 (likewise SL15 by SL17), so there will still be some gain -- even from your perspective :)!
     
  8. Drongo

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    I think the Fat Lady is clearing her throat, when’s she’s singing there will TL51’s you can buy and play…
     
  9. Rasczak

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    Okay - I've clearly missed something here - has HD DVD managed to 'up' it's capacity? Whilst retaining compatibility?
     
  10. TrevorS

    TrevorS
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    The only complication there is that it requires the studios choose to use TL51. Up to the present, the consistent word (delivered via Amir) has been that DL30 is sufficient.

    Still, if we finally get word that actual replication testing results in good yields (TL45 was reported to be fine), and player compatibility testing doesn't result in hardware issues (as opposed to firmware updates), and all looks fine and dandy (or satisfactory Toshiba workarounds are defined), then perhaps they'll go for it :)!
     
  11. Drongo

    Drongo
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    Rasczak, you may be right.

    Blu-ray’s biggest failing is that despite it’s greater capacity and bandwidth it has failed to show that it is clearly and consistently superior in picture and audio quality to the majority of people –IMHO.

    So TL51’s ‘technical advantages’ are moot in the real world. But in political terms those advantages may be very significant.

    When Disney says:

    TL51 may be the perfect excuse for them to alter their strategy …. ;)
     
  12. TrevorS

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    The whole basic idea was freeing up unused space that had been reserved to safeguard manufacturing tolerances. Each HD DVD layer is 15GB and the process has apparently matured very well. Fundamentally, they are sweeping up clearly fallow ground and reapplying it for data -- an effective capacity increase of ~13%. Pit size and hence compatibility are unchanged.
     
  13. Drongo

    Drongo
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    I think realistically that even if yields and compatibility prove satisfactory, it will still be some time before TL51 comes to market.

    Here’s hoping…..
     
  14. TrevorS

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    I think you're right! But as you mentioned above, HD DVD has a fresh weapon in the arsenal -- it can match BD capacity!
     
  15. Drongo

    Drongo
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    Indeed! :thumbsup:

    It’s interesting that Blu-ray’s supposed ‘advantages’ are crumbling away and yet they’re still left with an incomplete and evolving format.

    I think Paramount’s real reasons for their decision will become plain to see a few months down the road. ;)

    Now if this extra layer is used as a twin disc for high profile titles that need no more than 30Gb that would be a ‘killer ap’…..
     
  16. gixxerman

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    It's been a great week or 3 for HD DVD!
    Another one of the claims of HD DVD relying upon 'vapor-ware' falls away (like the dismissive claims about the impending Chinese players).

    In fact if anything it's BD which now is claiming 'jam tomorrow'.
    How the wheel turns, eh?

    I dont see 51gb being a big deal for retail movies but I can see it mattering to people for back-up (backing up Blu-ray movies? oh the irony!).

    It'll be most interesting to see what happens with the smaller sizes, 34gb might just be extrat bit of headroom some of the 'fluff' could use
    (ie the multitude of soundtracks some imagine so vital or the 'extra' bits).

    I'd imagine the 17gb disc might offer TV outlets a little more flexibilty in releasing their stuff too.

    I gather when they looked into the old 45gb TL discs their replication testing went well and was not considered a big deal so I doubt 51gb is going to be so difficult for them.
     
  17. TrevorS

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    There's an early report from CEDIA saying backwards compatibility for all generations of HD DVD players with TL51 is looking good. I'm not sure it's safe to hang a hat on that yet, but if we presume Toshiba did their homework before submitting specs (which is probable since they started TL45 at least a year and a half before the original players were released), then it at least seems possible! Hopefully we'll get something firm on that soon.

    I'm trying to get info specific to the 1.5x bitrate question, but there doesn't seem to be anything accessible just now. (I understand Toshiba had it part and parcel of the original TL51 spec submitted to the DVD Forum, but I need to verify it stayed there.)

    Here are some pertinent post CEDIA comments (the third quote has some fanboy flavors, and we're still not sure about 1.5x, but please be patient -- the content is otherwise good):

     
  18. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    RR Compatibility testing is still a big hurdle to jump (tripped up profile 1.1) but I find these report interesting. No sign of an this announcement on

    http://www.dvdforum.org/sc-decisions.htm

    and they are usually quick to update :confused:. It would be great to see what and how they have done this, and if all machine are 51Gb happy, then it is a MAJOR plus for HD DVD whether it is needed or not [I believe this will bring Disney into HD DVD however, always thought this, and that would be the beginning of the end of Blu ray having a chance to win outright IMHO]. All early days yet so it will be interesting to see what becomes 'confirmed' as they is still way too much 'rumour' from fanboys here at the moment in the snippits of info albeit interesting stuff that needs posting here.

    First title speculation, a biggie 'like' Transformers or is that too risky? or POTC? ;)
     
  19. Drongo

    Drongo
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    Wow! :eek:

    Of course we have to be very cautious, but if what Trevor has kindly quoted, proves to be correct, then it’s very big news on two fronts.

    TL51 compatibility; and the fact that CHD DVD players are fully HD-DVD compliant.

    I don’t think the significance of these developments can be over estimated….
     
  20. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    a cautious approach to new info like this is always wise I think but I agree if correct, it could be more significant tht the Paramount information from a few weeks ago.
     
  21. High_Def DVD

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    Yes, i believe that disney may consider hd dvd after this one.
     
  22. StardustOne

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    can my Toshiba HD-E1 play back the TL51 disk or not?
     
  23. Jeff

    Jeff
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    The E1 is a 2nd gen player, I don't think Toshiba would have gone ahead if they didn't have some confidence of it working.
     
  24. ani4ani

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    Reading around the web today, it appears that the biggest obstacle to HD DVD is not capacity but bandwidth - I have no idea if its true, but reading a couple of threads, it seems that the issue arises without or without 2 or 3 layers, that this extra space could be used for lossless audio, but apparently there is insufficient bandwidth for lossless audio plus HD Video? - is this why there are no "sexy" audio codecs on Transformers - any experts no if there is any truth in these stories?

    Does this mean that this extra space can only be used for "non-simultaneous" "fluff
     
  25. Albion

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    >Reading around the web today, it appears that the biggest >obstacle to HD DVD is not capacity but bandwidth - I have no idea >if its true, but reading a couple of threads, it seems that the issue >arises without or without 2 or 3 layers, that this extra space could >be used for lossless audio, but apparently there is insufficient >bandwidth for lossless audio plus HD Video? - is this why there are >no "sexy" audio codecs on Transformers - any experts no if there is >any truth in these stories?

    >Does this mean that this extra space can only be used for "non->simultaneous" "fluff
    __________________

    From what I have read there is no technical inferiority in the ability of either HD-DVD or Blu-ray to produce lossless audio,while at the same time giving a top notch HD image .And I don't think capacity of a disk is related in any way to optimum bandwidth required to provide a state of the art high quality video/audio signal-at least in any meaningful sense.

    No doubt it is possible to argue this point in some pseudo technical mumbo jumbo kind of way,but only to the point where any differences are practically meaningless.
     
  26. Rasczak

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    :rolleyes: There are also stories all over the net that said Universal was about to go neutral and HD DVD would be dead by December 06.

    HD DVD does have a lower bandwidth/overall bitrate than BluRay however it is absurd to suggest that the format can't manage 'lossless audo plus HD video'. If no discs were available then it might be arguable - but the fact that HD DVDs are in the shops now with all types of lossless audio (PCM, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) paired with some of the best high def video money can buy is probably enough to 'prove' this.
     
  27. Jeff

    Jeff
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    When it was first announced they also said it would be 1.5X data rate. Even without the extra rate the extra space is welcome for extra long movies. The advantage high bit rate lossy formats have over lossless is that they can tweak compression of the audio and video depending on what is most critical at any one time. You may also have a sound quality advantage with 24bit lossy vs pre down converted 16bit lossless.
     
  28. Rasczak

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    That wouldn't be a backwards compatible rate though would it? They can release the media and new kit with that speed but, unless they have planned it all along, previous hardware would surely not support it?
     
  29. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Unknown, I did read somewhere that all drive made to date could do 2X speed. I'm happy to just wait and see. I don't think either are must haves, they are more marketing ammo.
     
  30. Rasczak

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    I agree - but I think HD DVD needs to be 'clever' how they handle these things. They want to avoid any suggestion of incomplete profiles...
     
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