Looks like TL51 is now real!

Status
Not open for further replies.

TrevorS

Active Member
Just found this article:

http://www.screendigest.com/online_services/intelligence/video_and_dvd/updates/vi-060907-ec3/show

ScreenDigest said:
DVD Forum approves 'bigger than Blu-ray' HD DVD
07 Sep 07
Country: China, USA
Source: Online Services/Intelligence/Video and DVD/Updates

The DVD Forum, the international DVD standards authority, has approved a 51 GB single-sided triple-layer HD DVD disc for production. Extension to the HD DVD standard, which was submitted by Toshiba in April, received approval on 31 August 2007. Other recent developments include:

A single-sided triple-layer HD DVD/DVD hybrid (combi) disc, the DVD layer of which would be playable by legacy DVD players, is expected to be approved before the year end.

The Forum has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with China's Optical Memory National Engineering Research Centre (OMNERC) regarding licensing of the HD DVD-ROM China (formerly HD DVD-ROM China-only) format, specification for which was approved earlier this year. The only difference between the latter and the standard HD DVD format is the modulation scheme: the optical pickup in HD DVD China player will be able to play standard HD DVD discs, although Chinese discs will not be playable in standard HD DVD drives. According to the Forum, the Chinese government is keen to introduce the format domestically before the Olympic Games in August 2008. Large-scale integrates (LSIs) are already under development by manufacturers and use of AACS for the format is currently under negotiation.


Our take...

The approval of Toshiba's 51 GB disc is good news for the HD DVD camp, allowing it to compete directly with rival Blu-ray Disc's (BD) dual-layer 50 GB disc. As with the BD50, it is likely to take some time for production yields to reach a commercially viable level. However, once this has been achieved it will arguably eliminate one of the principle reasons behind some studios' support of Blu-ray over HD DVD, thus potentially making it easier for Disney or Fox to adopt a format-agnostic position without losing face. Meanwhile, the development of a triple-layer single-sided hybrid HD DVD/DVD disc will also be welcomed by HD DVD supporters.

Both Warner and Universal have been releasing double-sided hybrids in the US for some time but they have yet to use this approach in Europe. Single-sided hybrids (sometimes called 'twin format' discs) offer the same space for promotional printing as traditional optical discs and do not require the consumer to think about which way to put them into the player. Anime title Freedom was released in the US as a single-sided hybrid in June but its capacity (15 GB HD DVD and 4.7 GB DVD) was not sufficient for a major studio release. The approval by the Forum of a triple-layer hybrid might arguably encourage some studios to release certain titles only on HD DVD/DVD hybrids, which could in turn lead to some DVD buyers building up a library of HD DVD titles by default, before making the decision to upgrade to a hi-def video player. So far there have been no indications that the BD camp plans to support hybrid discs.

Looks as though it's all over but the compatibility testing -- all fingers and toes crossed :)!
 

ani4ani

Active Member
It will be interesting to see if they play on all these "complete" players?
 

Jeff

Distinguished Member
I'm sure initial tesing has already been done. My guess is that for it to have got this far they are confident that at least 2nd gen players will be OK.
 

Drongo

Distinguished Member
I seem to recall earlier speculation that TL51 was likely to have compatibility issues with Gen 1 Toshiba’s but not Gen 2 machines.

I can’t remember how many Gen 1 machines were sold, but I think it was in the region of 30000 players. If there are compatibility issues, maybe Toshiba could placate potentially angry owners with a subsidized trade in scheme for the new Gen 3 players.

And I hope that if TL51 does come to fruition, that it has 1.5x spin speed….
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Personally I remain unconvinced of the need for HD DVD51. We have had no real space issues with HD DVD30 to date - and compression is only going to get better not worse. As expected studios have preferred to stick with 'two disc' special editions rather than cram it all on one disc anyway - such sets command a higher price premium.

As for the tri-layer DV/HD DVD affair - again I'm unconvinced. Neither single layer DVD (4.7GB) nor single layer HD DVD (15GB) are enough for most movies. And yet the triple layer forces one to accept the hit - would it be high def or standard def that 'took the hit'. I would suggest it would probably be high def as, even in these early days of VC1/AVC, it wouldn't suffer as much as space limited MPEG2. Therefore I would suggest the flipper HD DVD30/DVD9 combo remains the best option - even if hated by some on these boards.

That's all very negative of me - sorry! I'll obviously remain open minded until I see how the products turn out. But HD DVD needs to avoid the pitfalls of 'profiles' and therefore compatibility with existing players must be paramount.
 

TrevorS

Active Member
I seem to recall earlier speculation that TL51 was likely to have compatibility issues with Gen 1 Toshiba's but not Gen 2 machines.

I can't remember how many Gen 1 machines were sold, but I think it was in the region of 30000 players. If there are compatibility issues, maybe Toshiba could placate potentially angry owners with a subsidized trade in scheme for the new Gen 3 players.

And I hope that if TL51 does come to fruition, that it has 1.5x spin speed….

1) NEC claimed the HD-1100A supported TL45.
2) Supposedly, Toshiba originally bought out Intel of about 70K P4-M 2.5GHz processors. If so, that should be a reasonable indicator of the number of A1/D1/HDV5000 and XA1 players out there.
3) Not sure what you mean by "if TL51 does come to fruition", the fat lady has sung!
 

TrevorS

Active Member
Personally I remain unconvinced of the need for HD DVD51. We have had no real space issues with HD DVD30 to date - and compression is only going to get better not worse. As expected studios have preferred to stick with 'two disc' special editions rather than cram it all on one disc anyway - such sets command a higher price premium.

As for the tri-layer DV/HD DVD affair - again I'm unconvinced. Neither single layer DVD (4.7GB) nor single layer HD DVD (15GB) are enough for most movies. And yet the triple layer forces one to accept the hit - would it be high def or standard def that 'took the hit'. I would suggest it would probably be high def as, even in these early days of VC1/AVC, it wouldn't suffer as much as space limited MPEG2. Therefore I would suggest the flipper HD DVD30/DVD9 combo remains the best option - even if hated by some on these boards.

That's all very negative of me - sorry! I'll obviously remain open minded until I see how the products turn out. But HD DVD needs to avoid the pitfalls of 'profiles' and therefore compatibility with existing players must be paramount.

Without commenting on the negativity :))), I will mention the DL30 will probably soon be replaced by DL34 (likewise SL15 by SL17), so there will still be some gain -- even from your perspective :)!
 

TrevorS

Active Member
I think the Fat Lady is clearing her throat, when's she's singing there will TL51's you can buy and play…

The only complication there is that it requires the studios choose to use TL51. Up to the present, the consistent word (delivered via Amir) has been that DL30 is sufficient.

Still, if we finally get word that actual replication testing results in good yields (TL45 was reported to be fine), and player compatibility testing doesn't result in hardware issues (as opposed to firmware updates), and all looks fine and dandy (or satisfactory Toshiba workarounds are defined), then perhaps they'll go for it :)!
 

Drongo

Distinguished Member
Personally I remain unconvinced of the need for HD DVD51. We have had no real space issues with HD DVD30 to date - and compression is only going to get better not worse. As expected studios have preferred to stick with 'two disc' special editions rather than cram it all on one disc anyway - such sets command a higher price premium.


Rasczak, you may be right.

Blu-ray’s biggest failing is that despite it’s greater capacity and bandwidth it has failed to show that it is clearly and consistently superior in picture and audio quality to the majority of people –IMHO.

So TL51’s ‘technical advantages’ are moot in the real world. But in political terms those advantages may be very significant.

When Disney says:

"For Disney to do the movie Cars in HD including the interactivity, a 50GB disc is needed. Pirates Of The Caribbean you couldn't do on an HD DVD disc. You'd have to have multiple discs. How can that be a good thing?

TL51 may be the perfect excuse for them to alter their strategy …. ;)
 

TrevorS

Active Member
Okay - I've clearly missed something here - has HD DVD managed to 'up' it's capacity? Whilst retaining compatibility?

The whole basic idea was freeing up unused space that had been reserved to safeguard manufacturing tolerances. Each HD DVD layer is 15GB and the process has apparently matured very well. Fundamentally, they are sweeping up clearly fallow ground and reapplying it for data -- an effective capacity increase of ~13%. Pit size and hence compatibility are unchanged.
 

Drongo

Distinguished Member
Still, if we finally get word that actual replication testing results in good yields (TL45 was reported to be fine), and player compatibility testing doesn't result in hardware issues (as opposed to firmware updates), and all looks fine and dandy (or satisfactory Toshiba workarounds are defined), then perhaps they'll go for it :)!


I think realistically that even if yields and compatibility prove satisfactory, it will still be some time before TL51 comes to market.

Here’s hoping…..
 

TrevorS

Active Member
I think you're right! But as you mentioned above, HD DVD has a fresh weapon in the arsenal -- it can match BD capacity!
 

Drongo

Distinguished Member
I think you're right! But as you mentioned above, HD DVD has a fresh weapon in the arsenal -- it can match BD capacity!


Indeed! :thumbsup:

It’s interesting that Blu-ray’s supposed ‘advantages’ are crumbling away and yet they’re still left with an incomplete and evolving format.

I think Paramount’s real reasons for their decision will become plain to see a few months down the road. ;)

Now if this extra layer is used as a twin disc for high profile titles that need no more than 30Gb that would be a ‘killer ap’…..
 

gixxerman

Active Member
It's been a great week or 3 for HD DVD!
Another one of the claims of HD DVD relying upon 'vapor-ware' falls away (like the dismissive claims about the impending Chinese players).

In fact if anything it's BD which now is claiming 'jam tomorrow'.
How the wheel turns, eh?

I dont see 51gb being a big deal for retail movies but I can see it mattering to people for back-up (backing up Blu-ray movies? oh the irony!).

It'll be most interesting to see what happens with the smaller sizes, 34gb might just be extrat bit of headroom some of the 'fluff' could use
(ie the multitude of soundtracks some imagine so vital or the 'extra' bits).

I'd imagine the 17gb disc might offer TV outlets a little more flexibilty in releasing their stuff too.

I gather when they looked into the old 45gb TL discs their replication testing went well and was not considered a big deal so I doubt 51gb is going to be so difficult for them.
 

TrevorS

Active Member
There's an early report from CEDIA saying backwards compatibility for all generations of HD DVD players with TL51 is looking good. I'm not sure it's safe to hang a hat on that yet, but if we presume Toshiba did their homework before submitting specs (which is probable since they started TL45 at least a year and a half before the original players were released), then it at least seems possible! Hopefully we'll get something firm on that soon.

I'm trying to get info specific to the 1.5x bitrate question, but there doesn't seem to be anything accessible just now. (I understand Toshiba had it part and parcel of the original TL51 spec submitted to the DVD Forum, but I need to verify it stayed there.)

Here are some pertinent post CEDIA comments (the third quote has some fanboy flavors, and we're still not sure about 1.5x, but please be patient -- the content is otherwise good):

rdjam said:
Lee Stewart said:
Credit To TrevorS (And To Mark Rubin For Posting It in the Rumor Thread)

http://www.screendigest.com/online_s...60907-ec3/show

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenDigest
DVD Forum approves 'bigger than Blu-ray' HD DVD

Yep - my big scoop has been blown!

At least everyone knows what it's about, so it'll put to rest the speculation - I had to do some due diligence with Mark this morning, as AVS has to ensure that false rumours are not propogated on the site (tighter controls are in place since the last "BIg news" rumour by another poster...

But there's a lot more info to this - however, I have been asked nicely by those close to matter to hold the rest of the info for 30 days... I hope you understand it's in the best interests of HD DVD that I do this, folks...

Suffice to say, tho, I do know what the first 51 Gig title is likely to be

rdjam said:
pteittinen said:
Sorry, but no. The new disc has different dot size (and therefore higher maximum bitrate output at similar RPMs). The manufacturing needs to have tighter tolerances because of the smaller dot size. That also affects the space layer between data layers; as the smaller dot size is harder to read, reflectivity is even more important than it was in the TL45 spec. While the basics are the same, decreasing dot size makes the TL51 quite a different beast to manufacture.
FWIW talking to some engineers and others here at CEDIA that may not actually be the case.

looks like the 1st gen toshibas have the capability to optically read the tl discs and for some PERL data reading reason, TL 51 may actually be easier for players to read because of optical distortion and interference reasons. The issue kinda is getting clear data from the laser bounching off the third layer and for some reason the pitch and data density on 17GB layers produce less interference, or easier to correct for , than the 15GB discs.

Thats a little different than what I heard before , and a bit conterintuitive, that a TL 45 was a detuned TL51.

but physics and optics can be that way at time.

------------

Yes - the specs are slightly different - but for reasons which can be discussed next month, the new TL51 design is easier to replicate than the TL45...

rdjam said:
Robert D said:
It's needed for PR and bragging rights.

It has single-handedly eliminated the ONLY technical advantage that Bluray actually had over the HD DVD format.

And now overnight, HD DVD is superior to Bluray in every respect, especially since everything about the HD DVD standard works on all players - something that bluray will never be able to boast...

In fact, the situation is now reversed, as most BD50 titles are actually max'ing out at 45 or 47 Gigs, said to increase yields because of the spin-coat problems they have been having - whereas HD DVD can now boast 51 GIGs!

HD DVD is now the superior format, and the most commercially viable!

I understand that during the course of development, 10's of thousands of Triple Layer discs have been produced and tested... next month I may be able to give you some more info - but I can't say anything else at this point...

Kosty said:
Didn't see all the posts today on the TL stuff, so forgive me if this is old news, but I had several sources tell me that Toshiba has confirmed that all 1st gen players will be 3rd layer capable as well as shipping 2nd 3rd gen Toshibas or as well as all announced players from Venturer or Intergra or any on the Broadcomm Soc HD DVD or Dual format solutions.

That implied to me that All HD DVD players past or future could play a TL twin format disk or TL51 .

If its a mandatory to read standard for HD DVD so that studios could plan on using it, its a huge thing.

Since its basically based on DVD 14 or DVD 18 technology from a replication standpoint it should not be that much more to produce.

The complicated bit isn't from the replication side, thats basically proven technology, some greater tolerances and testing working through the clear optical bonding glues, but the complicated part is on the PERL and data reading and processing on the player side.

If thats been solved, then its a really big deal, because current HD DVD lines could probably make it with only minor modications, or at least those sold in the past couple years could.

Kosty said:
wakashizuma said:
Man you seem to indicate that TL 51GB is backwards compatible. I wonder what would happen it is true....

That is the distinct impression that I have gotten as well from CEDIA.

I think it is likely that TL 51GB discs are backward compatible via firmware updates.

That would be huge.

has this been officially announced by the HD DVD PRG or DVD forum?

If its announced as a mandatory official standard, then its as good as the BD50 was before a BD50 title was released.

rdjam said:
mtw said:
Well, it seems so. This "chinese standard" HD DVD is not backwards-compatible it seems:

quote from first post "Chinese discs will not be playable in standard HD DVD drives" /quote

And some said HD DVD had finished spec....
As I understand it, the China-market CHD DVD will be required to play ALL HD DVD codecs, plus the Chinese codec - the standard HD DVD players will not be required (nor need) the Chinese codec.

This means that Chinese buyers can immediately use available HD DVD content, but that chinese discs will not leak to other markets. The lower royalty costs of the chinese codec are designed to make it easier for local content producers.

And by agreeing that CHD DVD players must also meet the existing HD DVD specs, this means that the volume production will help further decrease the cost of production for the HD DVD format. Both use the same Blue lasers and disc structures.
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
RR Compatibility testing is still a big hurdle to jump (tripped up profile 1.1) but I find these report interesting. No sign of an this announcement on

http://www.dvdforum.org/sc-decisions.htm

and they are usually quick to update :confused:. It would be great to see what and how they have done this, and if all machine are 51Gb happy, then it is a MAJOR plus for HD DVD whether it is needed or not [I believe this will bring Disney into HD DVD however, always thought this, and that would be the beginning of the end of Blu ray having a chance to win outright IMHO]. All early days yet so it will be interesting to see what becomes 'confirmed' as they is still way too much 'rumour' from fanboys here at the moment in the snippits of info albeit interesting stuff that needs posting here.

First title speculation, a biggie 'like' Transformers or is that too risky? or POTC? ;)
 

Drongo

Distinguished Member
Wow! :eek:

Of course we have to be very cautious, but if what Trevor has kindly quoted, proves to be correct, then it’s very big news on two fronts.

TL51 compatibility; and the fact that CHD DVD players are fully HD-DVD compliant.

I don’t think the significance of these developments can be over estimated….
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
a cautious approach to new info like this is always wise I think but I agree if correct, it could be more significant tht the Paramount information from a few weeks ago.
 

Jeff

Distinguished Member
The E1 is a 2nd gen player, I don't think Toshiba would have gone ahead if they didn't have some confidence of it working.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
Reading around the web today, it appears that the biggest obstacle to HD DVD is not capacity but bandwidth - I have no idea if its true, but reading a couple of threads, it seems that the issue arises without or without 2 or 3 layers, that this extra space could be used for lossless audio, but apparently there is insufficient bandwidth for lossless audio plus HD Video? - is this why there are no "sexy" audio codecs on Transformers - any experts no if there is any truth in these stories?

Does this mean that this extra space can only be used for "non-simultaneous" "fluff
 

Albion

Active Member
>Reading around the web today, it appears that the biggest >obstacle to HD DVD is not capacity but bandwidth - I have no idea >if its true, but reading a couple of threads, it seems that the issue >arises without or without 2 or 3 layers, that this extra space could >be used for lossless audio, but apparently there is insufficient >bandwidth for lossless audio plus HD Video? - is this why there are >no "sexy" audio codecs on Transformers - any experts no if there is >any truth in these stories?

>Does this mean that this extra space can only be used for "non->simultaneous" "fluff
__________________

From what I have read there is no technical inferiority in the ability of either HD-DVD or Blu-ray to produce lossless audio,while at the same time giving a top notch HD image .And I don't think capacity of a disk is related in any way to optimum bandwidth required to provide a state of the art high quality video/audio signal-at least in any meaningful sense.

No doubt it is possible to argue this point in some pseudo technical mumbo jumbo kind of way,but only to the point where any differences are practically meaningless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

The latest video from AVForums

Podcast: Samsung HW-Q800A Soundbar & Rotel Michi X3 Reviews + TV show and Movie News & Reviews
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Disney picks up Sony's cinema releases post Netflix in US
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
What's new on Netflix UK for May 2021
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Sony unveils X-Series wireless speakers
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
AVForums Podcast: 21st April 2021
  • By Phil Hinton
  • Published
JBL Synthesis SDP-55 processor and SDR-35 AVR now available separately
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom