Looking to replace my Rel Q200e to match Kef T101

[Ian Dudley]

Assuming typical 8ft ceilings the OP's room is just over 3,100Ft3 so fairly large. This is the measured CEA-2010 output for each sub and both should be just about reference capable according to my table.

How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

Hi, this is a thread I've been planning on creating for a while now. The table below lists CEA-2010 output rated subwoofers in order of their estimated ability to support user listening levels (relative to 85dB reference) in rooms of varying sizes. Unsurprisingly, the new Monoprice Monolith THX...

www.avforums.com

View attachment 1674269

As is typical with SVS models, they're tuned slightly higher so trade some infrasonic extension for more output higher up the frequency range where the majority of LFE content is.

Performance-wise I think @Ian Dudley would be very happy with either sub and, leaving aesthetics and price/budget aside, factors affecting choice are:

1. Method of EQing the sub(s). If you're just going to rely on an AVR's auto-EQ system then the SVS PEQ's offer no advantage. If you're going the full monty and getting a MiniDSP 2X4HD then their advantage is minimal but this is too complex a solution for many. If you're going to buy a measurement microphone and use the SVS PEQs to fine tune the response then the SVS subs have a clear advantage.

2. Warranty support. With UK based retailers and a UK based distributor (Karma AV) SVS is the safer choice. It should also be easier to source replacement parts for SVS subs in the longer term outside the warranty period due to the sheer volume of subs they sell. Re. the latter, subwoofer plate amps have relatively high failure rates and I would be far more confident in being able to source one for the SVS if needed in say 8 years' time when its out of warranty. Unfortunately far too many subs end up as paper weights when they can't be repaired.

Ultimately both are very good subs and from what I can see most owners seem to be very happy with them so you can't go far wrong with either. If it were me, at the current price differences, personally I'd buy a pair of the Monos and use the cash saved to buy a UMIK-1 and a MiniDSP 2X4HD.

I’m not looking to add any more equipment to the setup, or to do reference setup myself. I used to get much more into super accurate measurement and components, but as I’ve got older and lazier I’m happy just letting the Denon’s Audacity do the heavy lifting for me.

I’ll just be getting the single sub as we dont have space for a second (or at least not one I can sell to my wife). Interesting that the SVS is stronger at the higher frequencies, as with the relatively high crossover my Kefs have that might be more useful to me than deep bass extension. I found an old thread I posted on here when I first got them, and my previous Denon (1912 I think) wanted to cross over at 150hz during Audacity setup, which is higher than the Rel will go. So decent higher frequency performance in support of the Kefs would be good.

Thanks for this, good info to chew over.

 

[Gasp3621]

I’ve had my Rel subwoofer for over 20 years now. It’s great but it’s showing it’s age, and the back panel connections and dials are getting loose and unreliable, so I think it’s time I retired my old friend.

I primarily watch movies, with the occasional bit of music. My setup is 5.1 with a line level sub input from a Denon AVRX2700 and I regularly listen to Dolby Atmos stuff through it. The speakers are a set of five identical Kef T101 low profile speakers set to small, so I’m relying on the sub the fill in the low level.

To be honest I’m not convinced my Rel has been a great match to them, as I suspect there is a slight gap between the top of the Rel and the bottom of the Kefs. Supposedly they overlap between 80-120hz, but the sound has never been quite right since I got the Kefs (previously I had Mission floorstanders). I have the crossover at 100hz. But I think neither of them shine there.

I don’t need stupid low bass or to knock over my neighbours ornaments, quality and richness is more important to me than mass air movement just for the sake of it. I would like something the pairs well with the Kefs though, so I’m thinking I should find something that goes a bit higher than 120hz. Ideally looking for something a similar size to the Q200e, and budget is £500-£1000

From reading some reviews the SVS SB-1000 Pro has caught my eye, but I never buy anything without checking in with AVForum so very open to alternatives.

I don’t need stupid low bass or to knock over my neighbours ornaments, quality and richness is more important to me than mass air movement just for the sake of it.

Any plans to upgrade the speakers? Monoprice 12 THX feels rather beefy with such ultra slim speakers. The larger T301 measured something like 130hz -3db, so with the smaller T101s you looking to use ~150hz crossovers likely. They are basically like sats, rely heavily on woofer which has to play high.

Make sure you take some tape measurements to see how large boxes those PB2000/12 THX are. Coming from 10" small Rel they are quite massive which may be shock for Mrs.

If you going with SVS contact Cinehome UK and ask Tom. Mention that you are AVForums member so you get discount.

Cinehome | SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer (Black Ash)

On Demonstration. In stock for Next Day Delivery. The SVS 1000 Pro Series features technology breakthroughs from the reference 16-Ultra Series, the most award

www.cinehome.co.uk

Cinehome | SB-2000 Pro Subwoofer

IN STOCK & ON DEMONSTRATON Jaw-dropping deep bass extension and massive output with stunning musicality that will delight both audiophiles and home theater

www.cinehome.co.uk

 

[Jester1066]

@Ian Dudley - do you know if you'd want a ported or sealed sub? Both the subs mentioned above are indeed quite large physically. I couldn't fit/get a PB2000 in/orpast my OH - She (and I in truth) are much happier with the smaller dual SB2000's!

Edit: As yours is a pure movie based system and you're going with a single sub. I'd consider the best ported you can afford/accomodate.

 

[Ian Dudley]

Won’t be upgrading the speakers, too expensive and they look very discrete in white on a white wall alongside the TV. I’m not going to find anything as visually acceptable that doesn’t suffer from similar frequency challenges, even the 130hz quoted for the 301s is above the Rel. I think you’re right about the 150hz crossover, as that’s what my old Denon wanted to set them as, so yes I need a Sub that will fill that gap.

re ported and sealed, I was inclined to go sealed just because the old Rel was and I loved that little guy. But reading about the room size and having a preference towards movies it looks like I’d be better off with a ported. So either the Monolith or the PB1000 Pro.

Unit size wise, it sits in an otherwise unused corner, so I can probably get away with a fair size increase (within reason), whereas I’m pretty much forbidden to put kit or wires anywhere else in the room now

 

[Ian Dudley]

Hmm, absent discounts on either it looks like the PB1000 Pro is in the region of £200 more than the 12” Mono, and from various reviews I’ve read it doesn’t sound like there is much difference in quality. That might be the cincher.

 

[Jester1066]

Hmm, absent discounts on either it looks like the PB1000 Pro is in the region of £200 more than the 12” Mono, and from various reviews I’ve read it doesn’t sound like there is much difference in quality. That might be the cincher.

The mono's are certainly the best value out there £ for £. @AmericanAudio can likely help in getting you one too.

 

[Gasp3621]

Hmm, absent discounts on either it looks like the PB1000 Pro is in the region of £200 more than the 12” Mono, and from various reviews I’ve read it doesn’t sound like there is much difference in quality. That might be the cincher.

You might get -10% off for PB1K Pro so ~764£, but Monoprice 12 THX is equivalent to PB2000 Pro and for 680£ it can`t be beaten as PB2K Pro costs 1169£! However as you aren`t going to be listening near limits with those lifestyle speakers the PB1000 Pro would be fine surely if you want ported SVS. Audioholics reviewed the SVS: The PB-1000 Pro earns a 'Large Room' Bassaholic rating which indicates that it should be adequate for a room of 3,000 cubic feet to 5,000 cubic feet

Cinehome | PB-1000 Pro Ported Subwoofer (Black Ash Finish)

Buy the new SVS PB 1000 Pro Ported Subwoofer from Cinehome, the subwoofer experts. Authorised SVS dealers. Expert Advice & Support.

www.cinehome.co.uk

Dimensions:

SVS PB1000 Pro - 18.9" (H) 15" (W) 20" (D)
Monolith 12 THX - 22.8" (H) 16,7" (W) 23,6" (D)

 

[rccarguy2]

The pb2000 is practically double the price £480 more) They're pretty close in performance. However with that price difference...


Not like it's £100-£200 more

 

[Deleted member 901590]

@Ian Dudley my opinion may be unpopular here but I will share it regardless as that's what free will is all about

I am making the assumption here, based on you using the KEF T series, that you do not require high (even near to reference level) volume levels.

On that basis, the importance here is trying to achieve the best over all response.

You've said that you do not want to get a MiniDSP and UMIK. That you will be relying on the Denon x2700's Audyssey XT (without Sub EQ HT).

On the basis that you will be relying on that and need a flat response up to (and probably above) 150Hz, then I would strongly recommend getting an SVS so that you have the additional EQ on the subwoofer.

You don't appear to need the higher output per pound of the Monoprice products. Yet, once you done the Audyssey sub measurement what you can do is then set some EQs in the SVS and redo Audyssey until you get a good result in Audyssey before it EQs. You'll then get a more consistent, flatter subwoofer response to cover your bass management right up to the high bass frequencies that those T series need.

 

[Mr Wolf]

If you're having run your subs at such high frequencies then placement is key due to localisation and the fact that you're also in the dialogue frequency zone. The average pitch of a male voice is circa 125Hz and some are much lower (actor James Earl-Jones, the voice of Darth Vader is 85Hz) so I would keep it close to the centre at the front. Unfortunately this may not be the best spot for nulls lower down the range but so be it.

PB-1000 Pro's specs indicate its FR is pretty flat to over 200Hz when ported so should easily be able to accommodate such a high crossover setting.

 

[Ian Dudley]

I definitely don’t need tons of volume and power. The existing 200w Rel and Kef combo is already quite capable of going louder than is comfortable in the room. We usually listen around -20db (according to the amp), only going higher for certain souces, typically Dolby Atmos movies that seems to come out quieter than regular TV (pretty much everything is streamed via an Apple TV). I never go above about -13 as it’s just uncomfortable. I know that headroom is important, but even so I dont think I need a monster setup. The room is circa 3000 cuft.

Thanks for that crossover info @Mr Wolf , hopefully I won’t have to set it quite that high but it would be good to have kit able to do it if I need to.

The PB1000 looks good, but is a bit more expensive than I was hoping to have to sell to my other half. Time to start my campaign

 

[Deleted member 901590]

Thanks for that crossover info @Mr Wolf , hopefully I won’t have to set it quite that high but it would be good to have kit able to do it if I need to.

I have a T301 mounted to the wall roughly 4.5m from MLP and it gets this response from Audyssey, so 150Hz seems about right for the T series (as long as you have a subwoofer/s that can compensate/fill the gaps):

Time to start my campaign

These are not the droids you are looking for?

 

[martin 39]

In the ex demo bargin thread tom has a couple of sb 2000 pro for £1475 for the pair or £800 each with full warranty