Looking to replace my Rel Q200e to match Kef T101

Ian Dudley

Active Member
I’ve had my Rel subwoofer for over 20 years now. It’s great but it’s showing it’s age, and the back panel connections and dials are getting loose and unreliable, so I think it’s time I retired my old friend.

I primarily watch movies, with the occasional bit of music. My setup is 5.1 with a line level sub input from a Denon AVRX2700 and I regularly listen to Dolby Atmos stuff through it. The speakers are a set of five identical Kef T101 low profile speakers set to small, so I’m relying on the sub the fill in the low level.

To be honest I’m not convinced my Rel has been a great match to them, as I suspect there is a slight gap between the top of the Rel and the bottom of the Kefs. Supposedly they overlap between 80-120hz, but the sound has never been quite right since I got the Kefs (previously I had Mission floorstanders). I have the crossover at 100hz. But I think neither of them shine there.

I don’t need stupid low bass or to knock over my neighbours ornaments, quality and richness is more important to me than mass air movement just for the sake of it. I would like something the pairs well with the Kefs though, so I’m thinking I should find something that goes a bit higher than 120hz. Ideally looking for something a similar size to the Q200e, and budget is £500-£1000

From reading some reviews the SVS SB-1000 Pro has caught my eye, but I never buy anything without checking in with AVForum so very open to alternatives.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I’ve had my Rel subwoofer for over 20 years now. It’s great but it’s showing it’s age, and the back panel connections and dials are getting loose and unreliable, so I think it’s time I retired my old friend.

I primarily watch movies, with the occasional bit of music. My setup is 5.1 with a line level sub input from a Denon AVRX2700 and I regularly listen to Dolby Atmos stuff through it. The speakers are a set of five identical Kef T101 low profile speakers set to small, so I’m relying on the sub the fill in the low level.

To be honest I’m not convinced my Rel has been a great match to them, as I suspect there is a slight gap between the top of the Rel and the bottom of the Kefs. Supposedly they overlap between 80-120hz, but the sound has never been quite right since I got the Kefs (previously I had Mission floorstanders). I have the crossover at 100hz. But I think neither of them shine there.

I don’t need stupid low bass or to knock over my neighbours ornaments, quality and richness is more important to me than mass air movement just for the sake of it. I would like something the pairs well with the Kefs though, so I’m thinking I should find something that goes a bit higher than 120hz. Ideally looking for something a similar size to the Q200e, and budget is £500-£1000

From reading some reviews the SVS SB-1000 Pro has caught my eye, but I never buy anything without checking in with AVForum so very open to alternatives.

Those kef have no +/-.figure so likely not able to reach 80hz. With that 30khz hf figure that sort of implies kef using +/- figure more than 3.

Without even knowing the figure 4.5" sealed box in little can unlikely to reach down down 80hz

Try and find independent testing of these speakers.

Try and find sub that does well in higher frequency.as you'll be using higher crossover.

Also by directing more bass from the satellite speakers to sub means you need a more meatier sub
 

Ian Dudley

Active Member
Those kef have no +/-.figure so likely not able to reach 80hz. With that 30khz hf figure that sort of implies kef using +/- figure more than 3.

Without even knowing the figure 4.5" sealed box in little can unlikely to reach down down 80hz

Try and find independent testing of these speakers.

Try and find sub that does well in higher frequency.as you'll be using higher crossover.

Also by directing more bass from the satellite speakers to sub means you need a more meatier sub
Yup, that what I figured. I have the crossover to the sub at 100hz at the moment, but I think the Kefs would be better at 120 or so. But my Rel tops out at 120 and I think rolls off a bit before that so there’s a slight ‘hole’ where neither speaker shines.

The Sb1000 pro is quoted up to 270hz though, which should give plenty of overlap. At 325W its also has over 50% more power than the Rel, so it should be a decent upgrade?
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
You didn't mention room size. Another option could be two of these


There's also bk subs, so be able to buy two xls400 or two monolith +

Also personal preference whether like sealed or ported.

Subs have moved on since that old rel.

Be aware svs are no longer "more for your buck" subs they used to be. Not dissing the brand I've owned four however they're now as expensive as the major sub brands , if not more expensive. When they first started they undercut the competition in price and outclasses them in performance.
 

martin 39

Well-known Member
I had a 201e for 20yrs recently changed to arendal 1961 1S so much better and not that much bigger. So much more bang fir buck. I was lucky to pick this up off eBay in lockdown for around £500. I still got £325 for the rel so a very good upgrade for little money
 

Ian Dudley

Active Member
Thanks all, while bang for buck is important, I don’t mind paying for quality within my budget. More of a constraint to me is what my wife and family will accept, which makes a twin sub setup unlikely, so I’d rather go for the best single sub I can than try to squeeze two cheaper ones into the budget (I know the arguments for twin, but I’m also aware of the implacable arguments my wife will make against)

In a similar vein they won’t let me shake the foundations with bass as they don’t like it, and my personal inclination is more towards tight controlled bass than big boomy yawns, which I think points me more towards a sealed than a ported unit. On the other hand a lot of ported subs can have a plug put in them, which I suppose gives the best of both worlds? The Rel is sealed though and I’ve loved that, so I’m inclined to get something similar again.

The room is awkward. It’s about 23’ by 17’, with a thin ‘arch’ half way down where the lounge has been knocked through to the kitchen/diner. The TV, mains and sub are on one of the short walls firing down the long length, but the seating position is in the middle, about 10’ away from the kit. However, the 200W Rel is more than sufficient to fill the space. I have to keep the gain quite low to avoid boom so it has loads of headroom. So provided the new sub has at least as much ability as the Rel, it should be fine for my listening.

That monolith looks interesting, 500w and goes up to 200hz. But head to head as a single unit how would you rate it compared to the SVS? I have to say the app control on the SVS sounds interesting as I’ve often struggled to fine tune the bass in this room.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
If you have room eq in your eq the svs eq control isn't required. Also that will fix bass boom.

Also app control is a gimmick once you set controls on a sub you don't touch them, and if you do need quick sub volume adjust just use the avr user sub setting or adjust sub level calibration setting.

Have you heard/felt a good sub it's likely not been introduced to good bass, it's just what you know.

That's a big room you'll need than a little rel. No way will that be sufficient

As for sealed versus ported, I have my own opinion on that. In a smaller room I agree go for sealed. But in a big room go for ported. A good sealed can work in a big room but you'll need to spend thousands.
 

Ian Dudley

Active Member
The Rel objectively does fill the space as I’ve lived here 14 years with it and lack of bass has never been an issue. In fact the main tuning challenge I’ve had is turning the sub down far enough to not overwhelm the ability of the amp to lower it within the audacity parameters (I.e. the amp tuning just gets pegged at the lowest stop).

I bought the Rel in late nineties after a lot of research and auditioning, so I do know what decent bass sounds like. I’ve used it with various speakers and room setups and it’s always been good until I got the Kefs, which I think don’t match particularly well with it. But not because of a lack of bass, just a gap in the frequency response Which was my mistake when getting the Kefs.

In any event what I’m looking for is a shortlist of single subs that have a similar form factor/size to the Rel, and will pair well with the Kefs. I can go up to £1k but would prefer to stay around the £600-£700 mark if I can.

The SVS SB1000 Pro is a contender. The Monolith looks good as well, although I could get the 12” version on my budget which would presumably fill the room even better. Head to head how do those two compare, and what other brands/models would be good to shortlist?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
If you have room eq in your eq the svs eq control isn't required. Also that will fix bass boom.

Also app control is a gimmick once you set controls on a sub you don't touch them, and if you do need quick sub volume adjust just use the avr user sub setting or adjust sub level calibration setting.
I disagree entirely with these comments. The SVS App control is far from a gimmick and has several potential uses even after the sub is set-up. It also makes the set-up process far easier. The built in PEQs are very useful especially if you’re not going to be using a MiniDSP 2X4HD but even then they can still be useful.

It’s funny but the only people I ever see criticising the SVS App on this forum are those that don’t have it on their subs.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
BK and Monoprice are the only two internet direct, value for money subs I can think of at the moment.

You'll be shocked I'm difference between the rel ad a modern 12" ported high powered low tuned sub .



Bk have nicer finish but plate amp is old school class ab design. The monoprice allows you to tune it port plugging
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I disagree entirely with these comments. The SVS App control is far from a gimmick and has several potential uses even after the sub is set-up. It also makes the set-up process far easier. The built in PEQs are very useful especially if you’re not going to be using a MiniDSP 2X4HD but even then they can still be useful.

It’s funny but the only people I ever see criticising the SVS App on this forum are those that don’t have it on their subs.

Brother has it on pc 2000 pro, used for a few minutes initial settings. in my view it's no different to remote control on older subs, a gimmick (depending on usage) if you have a AVR it offers nothing more than a avr does.

On my four subs I don't miss having a svs phone app like feature. I don't care.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Also app control is a gimmick once you set controls on a sub you don't touch them, and if you do need quick sub volume adjust just use the avr user sub setting or adjust sub level calibration setting.
I see this statement consistently said by you and others.
I disagree entirely with these comments. The SVS App control is far from a gimmick and has several potential uses even after the sub is set-up. It also makes the set-up process far easier. The built in PEQs are very useful especially if you’re not going to be using a MiniDSP 2X4HD but even then they can still be useful.

It’s funny but the only people I ever see criticising the SVS App on this forum are those that don’t have it on their subs.
Was about to write something similar to you, but you beat me to it! It propper irks me!

I have 2x SB2000 Pro's and use the apps ability to set 3 seperate profiles (movie, music & custom). This means I can set a different crossover for the sub for music vs movies for example. Where I let my AVR's built in bass EQ handle the bass (with maybe a tweek of the PEQ's.)

In the OP's setup, the custom preset could be used as a "night mode" where he can set a lower volume for the sub etc.

It's far from a gimmick imo
 
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rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I see this statement consistently said by you and others.

Was about to write something similar to you, but you beat me to it! It lopper irks me!

I have 2x SB2000 Pro's and use the apps ability to set 3 seperate profiles (movie, music & custom). This means I can set a different crossover for the sub for music vs movies for example. Where I let my AVR's built in bass EQ handle the bass (with maybe a tweek of the PEQ's.)

In the OP's setup, the custom preset could be used as a "night mode" where he can set a lower volume for the sub etc.

It's far from a gimmick imo

A good avr can do that with custom settings simply using preset. My toneeinner can't , But a Denon can (three settings) plus a good avr/avr pre allows music and movie settings. You shouldn't have to be fiddling eq for music and movies.

Plus messing around with house curve means you're deviating from flat.

It's no different to saying you like colour to "high" or sharpness to max.

On my older lexicon you had music and movie user modes each allowed sub level. So music was -3db and movies +3db. No gimmicky app control needed I didn't need a phone load up app, then select preset and put down phone. I just pressed L7 music or L7 movie on the remote.

You're paying for that feature and I don't think it's worth it. They've removed high pass on their subs and in a bookshelf/sub hifi that is useful, so removal of that is thing I didn't like.

My monoprice subs are basic at the back but I'm not wishing the svs Bluetooth app control in the slightest.
 

Ian Dudley

Active Member
For my use I like the idea of the app, but not over basic capability or quality. If the two are in all other ways equal I would go with the one that has an app, but it’s not a deal breaker.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
For my use I like the idea of the app, but not over basic capability or quality. If the two are in all other ways equal I would go with the one that has an app, but it’s not a deal breaker.

You can use demo mode on the svs app, so give it a try.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
A good avr can do that with custom settings simply using preset. My toneeinner can't , But a Denon can (three settings) plus a good avr/avr pre allows music and movie settings. You shouldn't have to be fiddling eq for music and movies.
With respect. I don't fiddle with the EQ settings. I meassure my bass response properly with REW and a umik - and adjust to taste! Considering your tonewinner can't do any kind of decent EQ (your own words btw from the tonewinner thread!), this is laughable!

Edit: I choose to as you say "fiddle with the EQ for music and movies" To clarify i dont see it as fiddling. Ive simply set an EQ profile for music and one for movies in the app presets. To select whichever i want to use takes no more than a few seconds in the app. Theres no "fiddling" after youve saved the settings for each preset.
Plus messing around with house curve means you're deviating from flat.

It's no different to saying you like colour to "high" or sharpness to max.
Again I don't "mess around" with the house curve, I tweek stuff on my setup to my taste 🤣
On my older lexicon you had music and movie user modes each allowed sub level. So music was -3db and movies +3db. No gimmicky app control needed I didn't need a phone load up app, then select preset and put down phone. I just pressed L7 music or L7 movie on the remote.
That's good to hear, but doesn't alter the fact I personally find the app useful. I've also never owned a lexicon processor, so don't care tbh!
You're paying for that feature and I don't think it's worth it. They've removed high pass on their subs and in a bookshelf/sub hifi that is useful, so removal of that is thing I didn't like.
I respect you opinion and have no issue with it being different to mine. We'll just have to disagree on the apps usefulness
My monoprice subs are basic at the back but I'm not wishing the svs Bluetooth app control in the slightest.
Great news that you don't miss it. But I think it's unfair to suggest it won't be/isn't useful to others.

Biggest thing in the AV world is choice. What one finds useful another will not. Its also healthy (and fine) to disagree on topics.
 
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rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I think it's quite clear if someone says rhubarb pie is nicer than apple pie it's an opinion.

"Considering your tonewinner can't do any kind of decent EQ (your own words btw from the tonewinner thread!), this is laughable!"

Not really as when I had lexicon mc-8 I used antimode, and for movies and music I wasn't fiddling with my 13" in front of the missus, apart from sub level.

What has AV pre got to do with it? Also doesn't Dirac have better presets anyway?

So you to switch on your phone wait for it to boot, enter passcode, enable Bluetooth, load up svs app wait for it to sync up then select volume and adjust

And I have to do this. Man I wish I had app control
 

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Jester1066

Well-known Member
This is my final reply to you on this subject as it's not fair on the OP:

So you to switch on your phone wait for it to boot, enter passcode, enable Bluetooth, load up svs app wait for it to sync up then select volume and adjust

And I have to do this. Man I wish I had app control
1. My phone & bluetooth is always on (I'm using it now) - so no boot upneeded.
2. Once you done the initial Bluetooth pairing of the subs - no pass code is needed. I also use a lock pattern on my phone so that takes seconds.
3. I do not adjust the volume of the sub. The different volume levels (and other settings) are set within each preset. I select the relevant preset eg "movie" or "Music".

Edit: again, it's fine you disagree. But don't make assumptions like in your reply. It just makes you look silly imo.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Can you time how long that takes without looking at the phone? Without any mistakes?

It takes me split second to alter sub level.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
I could. But I'm not going to! Why? because it's imo irrelevant to the OP's thread!

At the end if the day our opinions on the app differ (which for the 3rd time is fine!). I don't agree with those that find it gimmicky either. But do respect their opinions.

Edit: I also don't just alter the volume in the app. As I said before. I have a completely seperate crossover - for the sub - set in the app for 2 channel listening vs movies ,(where I let the AVR handle the subs EQ)
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I could. But I'm not going to! Why? because it's imo irrelevant to the OP's thread!

At the end if the day our opinions on the app differ (which for the 3rd time is fine!). I don't agree with those that find it gimmicky either. But do respect their opinions.

Edit: I also don't just alter the volume in the app. As I said before. I have a completely seperate crossover - for the sub - set in the app for 2 channel listening vs movies ,(where I let the AVR handle the subs EQ)

Because you know it's fiddly, slow and requires you to look away from tv screen to phone

A good avr can do that (Denon has three speaker presets) and good avr/AV pre should have custom settings per DSP with discrete IR commands
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Because you know it's fiddly, slow and requires you to look away from tv screen to phone
I give up.
A good avr can do that (Denon has three speaker presets) and good avr/AV pre should have custom settings per DSP with discrete IR commands
Actually my 4500h doesn't have 3 speaker presets (that's on the latest denons). It does have a seperate 2ch preset though.

Edit: I will not be responding to any further posts from you directly. In the interests of not spoiling the OP's thread further.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
@Ian Dudley Apologies from me for the last few replies.

To get back on course. @Mr Wolf may have some thoughts on this question:

Assuming typical 8ft ceilings the OP's room is just over 3,100Ft3 so fairly large. This is the measured CEA-2010 output for each sub and both should be just about reference capable according to my table.


1648391936473.png


As is typical with SVS models, they're tuned slightly higher so trade some infrasonic extension for more output higher up the frequency range where the majority of LFE content is.

Performance-wise I think @Ian Dudley would be very happy with either sub and, leaving aesthetics and price/budget aside, factors affecting choice are:

1. Method of EQing the sub(s). If you're just going to rely on an AVR's auto-EQ system then the SVS PEQ's offer no advantage. If you're going the full monty and getting a MiniDSP 2X4HD then their advantage is minimal but this is too complex a solution for many. If you're going to buy a measurement microphone and use the SVS PEQs to fine tune the response then the SVS subs have a clear advantage.

2. Warranty support. With UK based retailers and a UK based distributor (Karma AV) SVS is the safer choice. It should also be easier to source replacement parts for SVS subs in the longer term outside the warranty period due to the sheer volume of subs they sell. Re. the latter, subwoofer plate amps have relatively high failure rates and I would be far more confident in being able to source one for the SVS if needed in say 8 years' time when its out of warranty. Unfortunately far too many subs end up as paper weights when they can't be repaired.

Ultimately both are very good subs and from what I can see most owners seem to be very happy with them so you can't go far wrong with either. If it were me, at the current price differences, personally I'd buy a pair of the Monos and use the cash saved to buy a UMIK-1 and a MiniDSP 2X4HD.
 

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