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Logo Burn In

Discussion in 'Satellite TV, Sky TV & FreeSat' started by Hinch, Feb 11, 2003.

  1. Hinch

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    All this hype about Logos burning into your plasma screen is a bit scary especially when youv'e just shelled out £3,000 like me and many others. Digital broadcasters dont seem to want to remove their logos so how about a compromise.

    They get to keep their logos on but change the position of it on the screen every so often say every 2-3 minutes. That way at least if it was in four corners instead of one, screen burn would not be nearly as bad or would at least take (in theory) four times as long.

    Its only a thought that might be worth proposing to the broadcasters.

    Ian
     
  2. Rookies

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    Well it a though,

    But I for one would get really peed off seeing it moveing places every 4 mins and i am sure a few others will be.
     
  3. Hinch

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    Not nearly as peed off as my bank manager if I asked him/her for a 3k overdraft to buy a new telly.
    (smiles)
     
  4. Flimber

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  5. chris

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    I've just brought an RPTV and was a bit worried about this myself, but i think plasmas suffer more than RP's........I would have thought that as long as you keep the contrast down to a good level, you would be ok and from what i have seen, most channels have toned down there logo's.....evern the cartoon network, logo, does not look as bright and bold as what it used to........

    When i first put my RP on, the contrast was at 100......cannot think why the factory setting would be 100..!!!....but i found that in my room, the contrast is better set on 27..........the logo's do not look as bad as they did on my direct view tv...some are still a bit pronanced on the screen, but most are just a little brighter than the actual programme...so hopefully there should not be a prob with my TV.

    I think the more we complain to the broadcasters, the more they will tone them done...but i think we have to live with the fact, that they will be there forevermore.
     
  6. LV426

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    remote control. (Corruption of 'vote with your wallet').

    If you don't like DOGs - don't watch channels that have them. Cancel your subscriptions (if any).

    According to the BBC 'customer reasearch shows us that people prefer logos....' They didn't research me! I wonder who these 'people' are?

    If channels with DOGs' viewing figures fall, the broadcasters will begin to wonder why.......
     
  7. pinatubo

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    Whilst watching BBC1 analogue last night around midnight I noticed that a BBC1 logo was visible.The same applied to BBC2.Switching over to my NTL digibox the logos were also present on the digital versions of BBC1/2.
    Does anyone know if this is permanent and just associated with the launch of BBC3 since some of the BBC3 programs were broadcast on both channels.
     
  8. MartinImber

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    If the BBC start doing 1 & 2 I'mgoing to stop paying the licence fee!!

    Logos must be banned

    Moron Murphy has got a new one for BBC Three - he is sexually excited by them!:thumbsdow
     
  9. gbmitie

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    Are unwanted, unneccesary, uncalled for, I have yet to see a logo that adds value to a programme. Is it not a total irony that when the ads are on the LOGOS disappear!

    Maybe in my liftime the BBC will go upmarket again and do a channel 5 and drop the logo. Everyman and his dog! know that it is quality programming that keeps viewers and it is dumbing down ie use of logos, that lose them.

    Oh well, live in hope.

    gb--
     
  10. johnjackthom

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    The number of viewers who actually find Logos useful really must be very small, so I'm left wondering just what sort of loaded questions were asked in the opinion poll supposedly carried out some time ago for the BBC.
    The problem is getting those who just dislike onscreen junk a little bit to even complain about it.

    I think we could really get somewhere If all the people who signed the What Video & TV petition were to join the LogoFreeTV.org group and then start complaining regularly.
    Otherwise I suppose the broadcasters will continue do whatever they feel like.
     
  11. GaryB

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    I certainly watch more on Channel Five, sorry, "five", since the DOG was laid to rest. Mind you, that may have something to do with the programmes actually being watchable now. I think the best answer to the original question, assuming the broadcasters won't do the sensible thing and get rid of DOGs completely, is to move them around very slowly, a pixel at a time. That is what the pixel shift function available on most plasmas does to minimise burn. They could also maybe move them from top left to top right between the programmes to minimise the annoyance this would cause.
     
  12. gbmitie

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    All these nice plasma owners should start suing the TV companies for dameages to their screens and maybe just maybe the logos may die.

    I for one will not be buying a Plasma screen for a very long time becuase of this screen burn. maybe someone from SONY, PANASONIC, PHILLIPS, TOSHIBA, PIONEER, ETC are reading these baords and might have a word with the TV companies!!.

    Oh, please don't start moving them round as I can jut about tolerate them on S*Y sports. I don;t watch any other channels with logos and S*Y is on dodgy ground as well, if the prices keep on going up.

    gbb---
     
  13. Rookies

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    There no bbc1 and bbc2 logo on mine at this moment unless it happens at certain time of day?

    Andy
     
  14. EggMan9

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    If they MUST retain them how about moving the DOG a bit nearer to the top (less intrusive) and then moving it from left to right and back again very very slowly - so slowly so that you can't see it move but fast enough so that it has moved completely from its original position after (say) 1 hour.
     
  15. Rookies

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    I have yet to see this BBC 1 and BBC2 logo none here yet at all. What time they normally on?
     
  16. jim.rae

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    Both BBC 1 and 2 show logos overnight, but there has been an increase in activity with the launch of Three.

    The chances of burn in on a properly adjusted TV - of any kind - are remote - you'd need to leave a high contrast image on it without changing channels for weeks.

    Monitors in TV studios show the same images - often colour bars -for hours on end and I have never seen any damage.

    The only exception to this is where time code numbers are displayed, but the monitor would have to be a fair age and used non stop for editing.

    So the moral is - yes complain about the logos - especially to the BBC, but they are a nuisance rather than a threat.

    And of course ITV have a whole new raft of logos and red dots coming to us this week as they launch their new interactive service...
     
  17. pinatubo

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    It appears to be the first complete program that starts after midnight eg on BBC1 last night the logo (BBC3 onBBC1) appeared when the Johnny Vaughn program started.
    There was also a logo on BBC2 but not certain when it appeared - it was after midnight.
     
  18. Rookies

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    That ok not bothered about it if it after midnight as I dont watch tv at the time. It noddy time
     
  19. LOGOFREE

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  20. jim.rae

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    The hype is exactly that.

    I have used plasmas, RP projection and hundreds of other TVs and monitors over the years when I was a video producer and event manager - and screen burn is a non issue for normal viewing.

    Reasonable contrasts and brightness settings will not burn an image unless the set is on the same fixed picture for months on end.

    Change channels once a night and forget it...
     
  21. LOGOFREE

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    It's a non issue for you, Jim, but nether the less I had a meeting with the BBC's Head of Technology on Thursday at Broadcasting House, and the summit did indeed take place. The BBC are now reacting to this issue, and our sources tell us that a response will occur.

    Further, the pictures and reports of screen burn, this non-issue, do exist.

    Whilst I am sure you present no evidence to prove there is no evidence, there is evidence of evidence.



    Case in point, this familly have reported screen burn from the CBeebies logo, which as you know is a part time channel. Full article from the Manchester Metro News:

    http://www.logofreetv.org.uk/redirect.asp?i=1586




    I shall not waste time mentioning that there is a proportionality to the screen burn problem, and that several factors affect its liklihood of occuring.

    http://www.logofreetv.org.uk/render.asp?mode=article_retort_bbc_27032002_3

    The pictures of a burnt rear projection TV set above, are just hype, and are not a problem. :clown:


    :hiya:
     
  22. jim.rae

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    If little Amelia watched enough TV in normal circumstances to cause burn in, it's time to serious question the familiy's viewing habits!

    I would be getting her eyes tested as well...

    The point I am making is not that it cannot occur, but common sense prevents it.

    Nor am I supporting on screen DOGS - I don't like them at all and support the campaign against them.

    I run a number of TVs - projection, CRT and LCD and various computer monitors as well as working in TV edit suites - and it just doesn't happen in normal use.

    It's a bit like complaining the engine in your car is bust after exceeding the recommended number of revs.

    And I don't find the Metro story very convincing at all...
     
  23. LOGOFREE

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    ... except in this case the car isn't wrecked due to the stupidity of its owner but via the wreckless behaviour of unauthorised third parties.

    On no occassion have I and many other viewers ever actually consented to on-screen logos or RED DOTs on our TV sets.

    It was stated in our BBC meeting on Thursday that:

    "The BBC admits that no further research has been done on on-screen logos since the BBC CHOICE research in 2000. Specifically NO RESEARCH ON BBC FOUR has been carried out. "

    http://www.logofreetv.org.uk/render.asp?mode=current_news#102

    Ditto, Sky have no research. FIVE had no research. The broadcasters are following a herd and have no certainty of their basis of policy.


    :nono:
     
  24. jim.rae

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    OK then...

    Taking all the reputable broadcasters who have hundreds of thousands - if not several hundreds of thousands of monitors - in the chain between programme origination and transmission around the world, how many of them have screen burn?

    And it therefore follows that the BBC would know - as would ITV and all the others - exactly how many of these monitors were affected by screen burn.

    So is there a conspiracy about to hush it all up?

    I can't see any sign of it so far...

    Normal viewing equals normal results on any TV.
     
  25. LOGOFREE

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  26. Starburst

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    I would have thought even in this day and age the bulk of displays in broadcast/production suites were still CRT and they have little or no problem with screen burn.
    As the logo/ident/dog would be added at the final stage before broadcast then the majority of the displays would have no onscreen graphics to burn in.
    Not to forget that these displays will be monitored/maintained 24/7 and replaced or repaired whenever they show any weakness and who is to say that bigwigs who make the decisions are even aware of why monitors are replaced.

    What is normal viewing and what are normal results?
    I wuld have thought that screenburn occured outside of what some people would call normal viewing, broadcastors have to take that into account and not dismiss the effect out of hand.
    With the advent of cheaper plasma and the branding of more or less every TV channel over the last decade new problems have arisen. The channel ident is a marketing tool and as more and more TV programs go onto VHS and DVD it is also a spoiler to encourage viewers to buy material instead of home recording. It is upto both the broadcastors to accept they have a responsibilty not to broadcast anything that can damage a display and it's upto the owners to understand the display they are using and set it ip correctly.
     
  27. jim.rae

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    Well it depends on the circumstances what images are on what programmes - and when they are placed on top of the picture...

    Most studio monitors are CRT, but plasma and other forms of displays are now being used across the broadcast industry on a daily basis.

    No sign of screen burn on them so far.

    But I agree with those who say that the best solution is to get rid of them altogether, not because of screen burn, but because they are ugly and intrusive.

    But the arrogant dick heads who run MTV and the like, don't give a monkeys what any of us think - so the more respectable broadcasters just jump on the bandwagon thinking it is trendy and "helps consumers in a multi channel environment."

    So yet again the poor consumers who pay for the whole shooting match come at the bottom of the food chain.

    The only things these broadcasters understand is new legislation, or poor advertising revenue, so let's hit them where it hurts.

    Deluge the Minister Tessa Wyatt with complaints and boycott the advertisers.

    It's the only way.

    Have you ever met a TV executive?

    It's a frightening experience.
     
  28. LOGOFREE

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    Jim. No attack meant here:

    "Tessa Wyatt with complaints and boycott the advertisers."

    With all due respect, my friend, you quote your industry experience, and then you say the above? This is bizarre.

    There is Derek Wyatt MP on the Parliamentary CMS committee, and then of course there is The Rt Hon Tessa Jowell MP who is Secretary of State for Culture Media and Sport. (Both of whom I know).

    But the notion of "boycott the advertisors" is an extra-ordinary thing to say. Advertisors pay to scatter bomb their messages at millions or at least 10,000s of viewers at a time. Their goal (like DOG users too) is to create Brand Awareness, Brand Identity, Brand Personae, Brand Loyatly as well as generate sales.

    It just does not work. You can't attack 100 advertisors over an issue unrelated to them and outside of their control. And it would be impossible to pursuade even 1000 people to boycott Tesco's or Renault just because of the logo issue. You could not even measure consumer demand that low!

    And measurement of Brand Awareness and Brand Personae is a complex calculation based on more than just advertising. A large proportion of big TV advertisors are of course mega-companies that have existed for decades with 9 figure market capitalisations. They would exist regardless of TV or not.


    CRT burn is very rare and would normally be effected by high contrast images such as white on black.

    I've already published expert opinion on how screen burn occurs!

    A good example of a very high screen burn risk is "After Dark" on BBC FOUR. A 3 hour+ open-ended programme, with a luvie-black studio, and a solid white logo on screen.



    Moving on, on Thursday, the BBC admitted to us (at our meeting) that

    1. No BBC FOUR audience research on on-screen logos has been carried out.

    http://www.logofreetv.org.uk/render.asp?mode=current_news#102

    2. The last BBC research (I suggest the ONLY BBC Research) on on-screen logos was done on a small sample of BBC CHOICE viewers in 2000. ie. It's three year's old on a yoof channel only.

    SKY admit to having no viewer research about viewer's attitude to on-screen logos, and remember that Sky One was the most popular multi-channel in 01/10/1996 before it even had a DOG.

    FIVE admitted to us last year that they had no logo audience research, but fortunately under their new Marketing Director, are doing very well without a logo now.

    Today, C4 have informed me that the C4 attheraces DOG is dead!

    There is hope. Campaign now!
     
  29. philipb

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    No comment on the +'s or -'s of logos, but to back up what Jim says, screen burn from logos is actually very very difficult to achieve. Most plasmas now have tricks to avoid it, and in any case you have to have a bright image on screen for hours and hours on end to see any after image. And even then it will fade away quite quickly after you change the picture.

    Delaying or avoiding purchase of a plasma because of the logo/burn in issue is completely unnecessary. I am now onto my second plasma - Pioneer 433 - and I watch a lot of "logo" channels. Never had a problem with burn in.
     
  30. jim.rae

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    Sorry - a rush of blood to the head - of course I meant Tessa Jowell the minister - apologies for that.

    And I certainly didn't mean Derek Wyatt whose views on the BBC I don't share at all.

    Too many late night posts I think...

    I have just spoken to a former EMI Marconi engineer this afternoon who has a lifetime's experience in radar and TV and he is at a loss to know how a TV in normal use in a domestic environment can have any screen burn - even a plasma.

    However he shares my view - and I think yours - that screen logos are a confounded nuisance.

    So maybe we should just agree on that and keep trying to get them removed - from the respectable channels at least...

    In the meantime, people who are worried, should keep the brightness and contrast at a reasonable level - and switch the thing off every so often!

    There are enough things in the world to worry about apart from TV sets...
     

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