Loewe Moire

groundy

Standard Member
I have had the 9381ZW Aconda for around 6 months now and started to notice Moire effects shortly after I purchased the set. On mine, it predominantly occurs on R1 pure NTSC signals such as R1 DVD's in 16:9, Cine, Zoom modes. However the Moire also shows up on PAL material in CINE and ZOOM modes. It does not seem to occur in 16:9 mode with PAL material.

I am discussing this problem with Loewe at the moment and hopefully we can all work towards a solution.

If you have a Loewe TV with a Moire problem, please post a brief summary here :).

Thankyou.
 

Darkl0rd1

Standard Member
Model:
Loewe Aconda 9381ZW
Chassis: Q2500/H

Problem Description:
When viewing NTSC DVDs there are curved “moiré” patterns visible on the left and right hand sides of the screen. These circular patterns are about 10-12cm in width, but can change a little in size and shape as colours and brightness levels change during films. They are only clearly visible on some colours (mainly light grey, light blue, brown and cream colours). Whenever these colours are present at the sides of the screen the patterns are clearly visible and very distracting. They are not visible when the screen is showing a black background (unless the brightness is turned up too high). This problem is not present at all while viewing PAL material.

The best way to view this problem initially is to turn up the brightness level while paused on a black background, until the black becomes a washed out grey colour. However the patterns are easily noticeable at normal brightness levels while watching any NTSC film. Black & White films are nearly unwatchable due to the constant patterns showing up on all the various shades of grey.

Initially I thought this problem may be magnetic in nature, as when moving magnetic objects too close to the screen (such as my front speakers) the patterns shift in the same spiral pattern as when colours change on the screen (the patterns will change shape when a DVD is paused and speakers are moved towards the screen). However my speakers are always situated at a safe distance from the TV, and the problem still remains even when I move my speakers completely out of the room. I have also moved the Aconda into 2 different rooms to get it away from any other electrical/magnetic equipment that could be causing interference, and it didn’t change the problem at all.

I have tried using several different DVD players (Rotel 995, Toshiba SD-2019 and Toshiba SD-5300) and the problem doesn’t change so its certainly not player related.

I have tried composite, S-Video and component connection methods and all of them show up the problem to an equal degree, so putting this problem down to cabling or other connection related issues can also be eliminated.

My local distributor also tried turning off the progressive scan mode as supposedly this has fixed similar problems in the past, but it did not alter the problem at all. Progressive scan has since been switched back on.

I’m praying that Loewe can get to the bottom of this and fix this ugly and distracting problem.

Please contact me via email or PM if you want any further information.

Simon Reidy
Australia
 
M

magnatom

Guest
Hi,

I too have the moire effect on my Vitros (Q2400) on both the left and right side of the screen when playing NTSC material (R1 DVD's) However, it appears alonside a couple of other problems. I have intensity bands that go from top to bottom, that vary in intensity from left to right (I think that is the best way to describe it :confused:) This is not usually visible except on dark backgrounds (most visible on a grey background). I also have an overall intensity variation where the centre of the screen was brighter than the edges (looks like a high intensity island in the middle)

This all sounds terrible but the effects are subtle, however, as with the Sony FQ75 scrolling bars (which I had previously :( ) Once spotted you can't miss them.

I have a engineer (though not from Loewe, he is in contact contact with them) who is working on my problems. He initially thought it might be the tube but when I spoke to him yesterday he mentioned that the problem appears to be coming from the software board. He is still investigating it, although it might mean a replacement TV.

Of course a replacement would be a Q2500 and this has Moire problems....:eek:

I am sure Loewe will solve the problem as I am sure they don't want to get into the problems that Sony had with the FQ75 customers!!

I will keep you informed of my progress.
 

jase the space

Standard Member
I had moire in PAL as well in certain aspect ratios - Cine and Zoom and PALPlus modes all exhibited moire to different extents. Anyway the TV went back.

My set was a Vitros 6381 Q2500/M (i.e. with the downgraded features!)
 

Badger

Standard Member
Originally posted by magnatom
I too have the moire effect on my Vitros (Q2400) on both the left and right side of the screen when playing NTSC material (R1 DVD's) However, it appears alonside a couple of other problems. I have intensity bands that go from top to bottom, that vary in intensity from left to right (I think that is the best way to describe it :confused:) This is not usually visible except on dark backgrounds (most visible on a grey background). I also have an overall intensity variation where the centre of the screen was brighter than the edges (looks like a high intensity island in the middle)

I have a engineer (though not from Loewe, he is in contact contact with them) who is working on my problems. He initially thought it might be the tube but when I spoke to him yesterday he mentioned that the problem appears to be coming from the software board. He is still investigating it, although it might mean a replacement TV.

Hi

1. Does the Intensity form what appears to be an X type shape ?
2. What software version does your set have

I ask because My Aconda (Q2400) has a similar sounding issue, I contacted Loewe and they suggested a s/ware upgrade might help (which ties in with your s/ware issue) - I haven't got round to getting it done yet as i've recently moved and i'm trying to get a VGA card fitted at the same time (anyone know anywhere that would do it in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire region - I've got one quote but want some more)

Phil
 

Badger

Standard Member
Originally posted by magnatom
I too have the moire effect on my Vitros (Q2400) on both the left and right side of the screen when playing NTSC material (R1 DVD's) However, it appears alonside a couple of other problems. I have intensity bands that go from top to bottom, that vary in intensity from left to right (I think that is the best way to describe it :confused:) This is not usually visible except on dark backgrounds (most visible on a grey background). I also have an overall intensity variation where the centre of the screen was brighter than the edges (looks like a high intensity island in the middle)

I have a engineer (though not from Loewe, he is in contact contact with them) who is working on my problems. He initially thought it might be the tube but when I spoke to him yesterday he mentioned that the problem appears to be coming from the software board. He is still investigating it, although it might mean a replacement TV.

Hi

1. Does the Intensity form what appears to be an X type shape ?
2. What software version does your set have

I ask because My Aconda (Q2400) has a similar sounding issue, I contacted Loewe and they suggested a s/ware upgrade might help (which ties in with your s/ware issue) - I haven't got round to getting it done yet as i've recently moved and i'm trying to get a VGA card fitted at the same time (anyone know anywhere that would do it in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire region - I've got one quote but want some more)

Phil
 

groundy

Standard Member
Phil, the moire pattern can vary from TV to TV and take on a variety of shapes. When you say an X, is more like a curvy X in the form of )(. If so, it is likely to me Moire. The pattern on my Aconda takes on the following appearance:

Loewe Aconda Moire
Moire.jpg


A good technical explanation of the potential causes of Moire on CRT displays is as follows:


The sources in the CRT which can effect Moire are the shadow mask, beam spot size, focus level, brightness level, horizontal and vertical size, and the resolution being displayed. One of these elements as well as any combination may result in the CRT displaying a Moire effect.

Moire Interference patterns are caused when the electron beam is not lined up correctly with the shadow mask or aperture grille holes. This stops the beam from being passed through to the phosphors, restricting pixel illumination. As the beam scans it will again line-up with the mask/grille and pass through. The result is that the brightness rises and falls, producing a wavelike pattern on the screen. Moire is more common in monitors with improved focus techniques as monitor with poor focus will have a wider electron beam meaning more chance of hitting the target phosphors instead of the mask/grille.


One possible solution is a very slight tube de-focus.
 

Badger

Standard Member
Hi Groundy,

I'm not convinced what I have is Moire - But I could easily be wrong though :) - as it cover the entire width of the screen. The X has it's points at the corners of the set, and isn't broken up into concentric lines as your picture shows - it's just a areas of varying brightness.

I have a Q2400 set (this problem seems to be happening only on Q2500 sets) and merely replied as Magnatoms comment as he had a Q2400 set and his investigations are pointing to the Software in the same way mine have.

Apologies for muddying the issue though and please feel free to have my posts removed from this thread if you wish to keep it focussed (so long as Magnatom lets me knows what his looks like :))

Phil
 

stretcher

Active Member
Hi Groundy

Snap - I too have had this problem, primarily with R1 discs in dark scenes, but also on some dark scenes on R2 - some twiddling has managed to eliminate most of it, but it still appears from time to time - I don't find it too distracting, but for such an expensive set (Aconda 2500 chassis), it shouldn't be there at all.
 

mandlebrot

Active Member
I have and from what I can gather most other people have this same problem on Panasonic sets (not Loewe I know but just thought I mention it) when in NTSC mode. The only suggestion/fix I've heard of is to get the tube slightly de-focused, I don't really fancy the idea of that so for now I just set my DVD to output PAL 60 (pseudo NTSC) and that seems to cure/hide it.

I am aware that this is not an ideal solution because you lose tint control and I guess a tiny amount of resolution but it seems better to just lose a bit of resolution for NTSC stuff than lose focus on all material, I might be talking a load of rubbish though cause I'm just guessing about the resolution loss maybe I'm missing out on an whole lot more by using this mode.
 
M

magnatom

Guest
Badger I am sure we have had the conversation before :).

Yes mine is only at the edges just like grouny has. I don't really have the crossing lines but I think the problem will vary from TV to TV. I think yours does sound different, although it might just be an extreme version of the problem. Also Loewe haven't claimed that it is the software as such, but a problem with the software board itself.

Is it possible to take a picture of the problem and place it on the thread?

Cheers
 
T

Tharkysis

Guest
Hi, all,
My set has also this problem of Moire.
Here my little story:
-Buy Set and immediatly see the Moire Problem
-Engineer replaces the DSP at my home ==> always Moire Problem
-The set returns to Loewe Anvers (Belgium) during 3 weeks where the tube has been change ==> return to my dealer who sees that the problem is always there. Dealer sent me a new Set
-And................ my new set has also the problem.
VITROS 6370 ZW Q2500 Low

So, contacting Loewe belgium, it appears that the problem is common for all Vitros 6370. :mad:

So Now i don't know what i must do, changing TV for another (I have no idea for the model (28inch)) or live with this TV.
 

groundy

Standard Member
Ok guys, I spoke to a very knowledegable and helpful guy at Linn who was genuinely concerned about the Moire issue. He was already familiar with it and instructed me to go in to the service menu and make some adjustments to the S-Correction and V-Amplitude parameters (I'm not advising you all to do this unless you feel comfortable doing it). I did this while on the phone to him. The improvements were immediatly apparent but I suggested this was of slight detriment to the geometry. Here is his quote regarding the Moire:

Moire is due to the specification of the CRT, which has been designed chiefly for the display of PAL signals which have a refresh rate of 50Hz, as opposed to NTSC which is 60Hz. It is this difference which causes the patterning. So, basically it is a compromise by adjusting the S-Correction or a slight de-focus. The adjustments that you have made should suffice (I took S-Correction down from 11 to 3 and V-Amp form 21 to 17), but if you feel the picture has been squished too much then I would take the S-correction back a step or two. As for whether the de-focus would help, I would advise against it as it will affect your PAL signals as well.

I have decided to live with the S-Correction fix as I feel a de-focus may only enhance other problems. The vast majority of my collection is R2 and as I result of this, it will stay this way for the forseeable future. At the end of the day, the TV is amazing in all other areas and, though the Moire is annoying, it's still not much in the grand scale of things. Just look at the threads you see regarding other TV manufacturer's and think yourself lucky :).

I'll be happy to answer any further questions any of you have regarding this.
 
M

magnatom

Guest
Thanks groundy for the update. Not ideal, but as you mention the TV is much better than a lot of others out there!

Still no word on my Vitros Q2400. The engineer who has my TV has had some personal problems so that has held things up quite a bit. I still reckon though I will be getting a new TV, so it will be interesting to see if I have problems with the new set.

I will keep you informed.
 

Darkl0rd1

Standard Member
Thanks for the info Groundy.

I actually got similar information abotu the moire problem through International Dynamics (the Australian distributor of Loewe products) who obtained the info directly from a technician at Loewe Germany.

Here is what he had to say:

Simplified:
To display a picture on the screen the deflection system writes the image in a pattern of 625 lines in Pal mode onto the screen. In a black and white TV it arrives directly on the phosphor. In a colour TV we create the picture by the 3 primary colours RGB. To
control colour indepentend there are 3 separate catodes, a shadow masc and millions of phosphor colour RGB triples. The the optical system is designed in that way that on each place on the screen e.g. the red catode can see through any whole of the shadow masc only red phosphors,e.g. the green catode through same holes only green phosphors.The major item is the number
of holes/triples in vertical direction, because we have now two pattern serial. Looking through two serial grids you get interferrence. It can be optimized by adapting the mech.dimensions. In the TV there is the problem that one Grid is variable between Pal and NTSC: Pal 625 lines ,NTSC 525 lines. It involves that designer has to decide to optimize for Pal or for NTSC. In our case we use PAL optimized tubes.


In my case since nothing can be done about this issue on the Aconda, I have decided to upgrade to the Articos. I will be looking at one shortly to make sure that it doesn't suffer from the same moire issue.

Has anyone here ever seen it on the Articos?
 

astonbilla

Active Member
Hi Groundy,

Sorry to hear there has not yet been a solution for the moire prob. I am having problems again with another new set, so i am finally considering going from my fs76 to an aconda.

How noticable is the moire and how large. My concern is my 200+ R1s might go to waste. In fact i had a philips 9607 and the picture was so good it was unreal. However, it wobbled at the sides during R1 playback so i got rid of it.

Any help would be great matey

Cheers

Bill
 

stretcher

Active Member
Similarly, I have stacks of R1 discs, playing on an Aconda - there are very few discs indeed which are affected enough to be visibly noticeable from the normal viewing distance - the patterning on my own set has been markedly reduced by changing some parameters in the service menu anyway.

Oddly enough, even LOTR has a some moire in occasional scenes - however I hadn't noticed it until I was right beside the set playing with some player settings! I moved away a couple of feet and couldn't see any at all.

So basically it doesn't trouble me enough to prevent me continuing to purchase R1 discs and I don't think you should worry too much about your collection.
 

Guest
groundy.

I've got the Aconda 9381ZW.

Have you had a play about in the Service menu...
Some of the 'factory settings' i had were unbelievably pants, with wider black bars @ top than bottom, picture bend, etc....

I had a right fiddle in the service menu one night & managed to eradicate everything that was persisting me off.....
You can specify different settings for NTSC/PAL

I'm no TV expert, but is your effect on your set, like lightish arcs visible?

If so, i had some of them as well, which were corrected by fiddling around in the service menu....Can't remember what i did though!!

Tell yer, Loewe must've employed Stevie Wonder to set these up!

Of course, i apologise for wasting your time if you've already been delving into the Service Menu.

Adzman
 

groundy

Standard Member
Sorry for the late reply people. I'll try and answer in order:

Bill:

Nightmare that you're still having problems and I think it is about time you considered the Aconda. As Stretcher has mentioned, you can almost eradicate the Moire using a solution that I will post below. I say almost because what it does is really compress the Moire pattern to a point where it becomes invisible from any more than 3 ft away. It is simply not there from a normal viewing distance of 8 to 9 ft away. My solution which I posted ages ago (in a now deleted thread) is as follows:

I have had the 9381ZW Aconda for some time now and started to notice those effects shortly after I purchased the set. On mine, it only happens on R1 pure NTSC signals via DVD. It used to also happen on analogue PAL in CINE and ZOOM modes but since upgrading to Sky Digital, this no longer occurs at all.

I was getting tired of the effect on NTSC material and it is indeed down to geometry distortion causing a slight Moire effect. You'll notice that changing aspect ratios changes the nature of the moire pattern. In Pan mode, the moire should be gone completely.

The nature of the moire pattern seems to be linked to two parameters in the service menu:

1. V Amplitude
2. S Correction

V Amplitude adjusts the vertical size on the image. S Correction adjusts the vertical size of the mid portion of the screen only. The default for this parameter on NTSC material was 11 on my Aconda. So I paused a NTSC DVD (Predator) on a scene that showed the moire quite significantly and adjusted the S Correction parameter. I brought the value down from 11 to 3 and the moire dissappeared before my very eyes!

Problem solved.

Only do this if you are not afraid to access the service menu yourself. Otherwise call an engineer out but he will most likely just do the same thing.

To enter the service menu:

**** WRITE ALL DEFAULT SETTINGS DOWN BEFORE MAKING ANY CHANGES ****

Press the Menu Button on the TV until the service option is highlighted, then quickely press "M" on the remote. Scroll through the geometry options with the up and down controls and change values with left/right. Store new values with OK. If you do not wish to store just pres "E" to exit the service menu.

Let me know how you all get on :).
 

Guest
groundy.

Ahhh sorry mate, should've read the thread more carefully.
Yes, those option bytes are pretty interesting aren't they..
Aint got a clue (apart from turning the de-interlacing off) what most of them do actually!!!!!, but you're right, the Service menu is quite user friendly!.....

Adam.
 

Darkl0rd1

Standard Member
As mentioned above I was considering upgrading to the Articos to reduce (or possibly even eliminate) the moire issue, so for the last few weeks I have been researching this model extensively, as well as testing it thoroughly in store to see if it suffered from the same problems.

The results of my testing and research with the Articos are interesting so I thought I'd share them here.

1. Contrary to comments posted on these forums, as well as other forums around the net, I received confirmation from Loewe that the Articos uses exactly the same tube and chassis as the Aconda! The only electronic differences are with the IR link system, teletext system and a couple of other very minor differences which aren't performance relevant. They even share the same sound system!

2. From my testing (side by side with same material) the Articos has a slightly sharper picture than the Aconda. However as mentioned above this is not at all due to differences in tube or chassis, but can be put down solely to the "contrast pane" that the Articos has over the top of the tube. The pane increases contrast a little, as well as sharpening the picture through a sort of magnification process. Similar to the sharpening effect that some tinted sunglasses can have.

3. Since the Articos shares the same tube as the Aconda the moire problem is unfortunately as present as ever. The model I looked at didn't appear to have it quite as badly, but I imagine this is due to different geometry settings under the service menu, as we know that moire can be reduced via vertical geometry adjustments. I imagine moire could be reduced to the same tolerable levels on an Articos that it can be on an Aconda.

So in light of the above if any lurkers here are trying to decide between an Aconda or Articos, I would save some money and go with the Aconda as they are virtually the same TV. That is unless you think the contrast pane is really worth the extra money for the slight increase in sharpness. There is of course the matter of aesthetics, and the Articos is a top looking TV, but personally I actually prefer the cleaner look of the Aconda. The try hard plasma look of the Articos is a little too "art deco" for my tastes.
 

drew

Standard Member
Just a reminder, (since this was discussed at length by others a while back), that the Aconda 9381 will have a Phillips tube but the 9281 will likely have a Tosh tube.

This might explain differences in comparing with the Articos, depending on which Aconda was being used. The official line from Loewe is that the tube is not a declared part of the spec, but when I was buying a 32" Aconda some months back, I learnt from the technical dept that the only way of being sure of Phillips was to buy the 9381.

Due to a worldwide shortage of Phillips tubes apparently.
 

Darkl0rd1

Standard Member
Originally posted by drew
Just a reminder, (since this was discussed at length by others a while back), that the Aconda 9381 will have a Phillips tube but the 9281 will likely have a Tosh tube.

Right you are. I should have been more clear on this so my apologies. The Aconda I compared to the Articos was a 9381ZW with Q2500/H chassis and Philips tube. The Articos has exactly the same Philips tube as the 9381ZW Aconda.
 

drew

Standard Member
OK Darkl0rd1

Good to hear back from you, and I hope you end up with something that you're pleased with.

A further bit of info on those tubes. Apparently the UK importer has started to see a few 9281's coming through with the Phillips tube. Again, information from the engineers rather than the front desk.

Don't know what the situation will be round the other side of the globe where you are, but as the world shortage is the cause of the problem, the shipping out of Germany is likely to be pot luck.

Only mention this because if you/any one else reading this, is not bothered about the stratos silver or gloss black of the 9381, then finding out about the tube in a prospective 9281 could save £200 in the UK. I paid the extra for a 9381 to be sure of the Phillips tube. That much extra just for the paint finish (very, very, nice though it is) would be more of a dilemma.

I'm sort of glad the tube issue was there as well, because my stratos siver is the business.
 

groundy

Standard Member
Not particular relevant to the Moire problem discussed here but I had my Aconda software updated today. A new IC was fitted which took the set from:

v2.2 ACQ v1.07 TDC v1.01
EPROM code 29780 489
EAROM code H00951

to:
v3.5 ACQ v2.05 TDC v1.03
EPROM code 29780 545
EAROM code H00951

It was simple job, switch the set off, remove back cover, flip out old chip and stick in new one. Took all of 10mins.

The purpose of the upgrade was to cure a picture shift problem when activating DMM mode on NTSC material. The picture would shift down almost an inch in this mode but only on R1 DVDs. I never use DMM mode but this was bugging me since I got the set.

The new IC fixed the problem but also added a few other nice new features :smashin:.

Zap 2 Text

Some stations use this service. If teletext pages are referred to during a program, the TV set saves and/or displays this page number. You call the teletext page with the T button from the display during the program or from this menu. This feature doesn't work in teh UK though :(.

iPIP function

In iPIP the TV picture currently displayed becomes the PIP picture. Select another program for the TV picture and keep your eye on the PIP picture. In this way you can temporarily ”ban” commercials or parts of programs to the PIP picture. In iPIP, the frame round the PIP picture is orange instead of the normal PIP green.

There are a few other changes in the User Information A to Z and a few words have been substituted with others.

I assume those of you with the latest models will also have these features though.
 

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