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Loewe component / progressive scan

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Steve1138, Apr 26, 2002.

  1. Steve1138

    Steve1138
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    OK - I've done it. I talked to a very helpful engineer at the LOEWE factory in Germany (or rather, I listened while he talked in incredible detail... I got about 60% of it..! enough to answer my key questions)

    (see prev thread http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25662)

    As you might have guessed from reviews of their US models, their TV's DO HAVE a built in de-interlacer chipset (from Philips).
    Their TV's (including those with the previous vers. chassis - 2400) are set to automatically switch to ProScan on NTSC signals.

    The TV and the chipset are PHYSICALLY capable of working on PAL inputs to give ProScan... BUT the TV's are set at the factory NOT DO THIS. Rather they switch to 100Hz mode because of the 50Hz PAL frequency. As ProScan PAL would be 50Hz, they feel (and most of their customers would probably agree) subjectively that the flicker is too distracting and therefore (for many people) an inferior compromise... hence they go for the 100 Hz digital processing on PAL... and forego the possibility of showing it in ProScan (a user menu option would be nice to change the default for PAL also to ProScan... are you listening 'Hoeren Sie, Herr. LOEWE' ??!!)

    As mentioned by some people already on this forum - you CAN change it and REACTIVATE the de-interlacer for PAL inputs using the bit 1 (?) byte 3 thingy (? don't quote me...) in the service menu.

    Whether this Philips chipset is as good as the Silicon Image Si503 is another question.

    So if you're watching NTSC DVD's you're probably already watching in ProScan mode... whether you use a component or RGB Scart input from yr DVD player. it shoudl auto detect and show in ProScan.
    PAL disks (inputs) will be interlaced, 100Hz.

    If you want to use an external deinterlacer (Silicon Image iScan Pro) you need the VGA module. With the previous chassis (2400) the set would apparently only synch to NTSC 60 Hz signals... GOOD NEWS.. with the new 2500 chassis it should also synch to 50 Hz PAL signals !!

    Also. VGA "mode" kind of suggests that the picture will have 480 lines. whereas PAL signals has 576.. so I asked whether you'd lose part of the picture when feeding a PAL ProScan signal through the VGA. Apparently not - you should get it all. It's just a function of the screen geometry, which you can change (didn't ask if it would auto-detect and do it itself).
    Also - Using the VGA module, there's no further processing done to the signal (woopeeee !!).
    so all the horrible digital motion artefacts, smearing, picture crawl, etc etc should disappear.
    (whether the built in Philips de-interlacer also allows other digital processing to take place (when using NTSC signals through the normal AV inputs) and still cause some digital artefacts is another question) but using a external de-interlacer and the VGA module, it sounds like the signal goes straight to the electron guns in the CRT.

    I forgot to ask if they plan to include component inputs soon in Europe.

    Happy to have re-opened this one again !!

    Steve
    An Englishman in Switzerland.
    Auf Wiedersehen.

    PS - did you know that the German word for TV is "Fernsehen", which literally translated mean "Far See"... which seems strange at first, unless you know any Greek, then you'll know that the English word "Television" pretty much means the same thing.
    However the German word for 'nipple' is "Brüstwartz", which literally translated means "Breast warts".
    It kind of puts you off, doesn't it ?

    Thanks again to the helpful man at Loewe.
    Vielen dank und freundlichen Gruß.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Steve: I can say from viewing NTSC on component on these things that the de-interlacing of film based material by the set is not in the same league as the SILchipset......

    I can also say that if the TV is tuned for 480P then when it shows 576P you are likely to get overlapping scan lines and perhaps a soft image. Did he confirm it would sync to 720 x 576 @ 50Hz or just that it would do VGA @ 60Hz.

    Well done for getting some sense from them!

    Gordon
     
  3. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Good one Steve,

    After you test this, I will probably upgrade to 2500, maybe the Articos, as I already have two buyers for mine...
     
  4. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Steve,

    Are you getting the Iscan, how will you connect it to the VGA module, does it have VGA output ?

    Anyone tested the Articos, is it much better than the Aconda/Vitros ?

    Will the 2500 chassis accept HDTV when it is available ?

    Thanks again,
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The ISCAN is a de-interlacer. It has an HD15 (vga socket) output. The signal coming out of this can be in either RGBHV or YPrPb form. With NTSC it would be 720 x 480@60Hz with PAL 720 x 576 @50Hz.

    I wold be astounded if the chassis has bandwidth for 720P but it might work on 1080i.. (same timings as 540P I think). Unless you are going to be getting DHVS hi-def tapes I don;t think you need to worry about hi-def compatability...

    Gordon
     
  6. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Here we go again... :rolleyes:

    So I still need a converter RGB/VGA, is this passive or active, will it degrade the signal ?

    And it is no sure thing that the 2500 will take 720p...
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    With an Iscan you don't need any transcoder....it does RGBHV or YPrPb....a transcoder from the likes of Key digital doesn't change the signal resolution from what is coming in, only the format it is being sent by.

    NTSC 720 x 480@60Hz is very close to VGA so most devices sync to this anyway. PAL is the problem though. It's not like any PC resolutions so this, combined with the higher bandwidth requirement, usually puts the stops on doing PAL prog straight in to these TV's....

    Gordon
     
  8. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Thanks Gordon,

    I have the FMJ27, so I won´t be needing the Iscan, but the Key Digital KD-CTCA2. It is not cheap, at $319.00, will it add any distorsion to the output of the DVD ?

    I will have to wait for Steve´s test, or someone´s, to confirm that the 2500 chassis can handle PAL progressive, and then upgrade to the Articos with VGA module. Do you think it is worth it ?

    I mostly have R2 DVDs...
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Not had an Articos in to play with yet....Had a look at one in Linn shop and can't say I was blown away...but then none of them blew me away.... I think it's a weird style though. The picture size looks small due to the case design I think.

    I look forward to seeing how Steve gets on too.

    Gordon
     
  10. Pete Callan

    Pete Callan
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    I was going to buy a Vitros and wanted one in Platinum. However Loewe in Scotland advised that the Platinum Vitros now comes on the 2500 chassis, which doesn't have split screen, only PIP.

    I want both split screen and PIP but Loewe advised only the Steel Blue and Basalt models do this, because they are still on the 2400 chassis.

    I've been to HOF and they're convinced that the Platinum they sell has s/s and PIP (presumably they still have the 2400 chassis in their warehouse.

    The question is, having read and not really understood the previous posts in this thread, is the 2400 at a big disadvantage to the 2500. (Otherwise I might go for the Aconda).

    Thanks
     
  11. telboy

    telboy
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    I have an Articos with the Q2500 chassis and that does both PnP and Split screen.
     
  12. Pete Callan

    Pete Callan
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    Telboy:

    But I'm not talking about the Articos, I'm talking about the Vitros.

    I think the new 2500 for the Vitros must be diffferent (or at least that's what Loewe told me).
     
  13. Steve1138

    Steve1138
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    I'm working fom the assumption that even interlaced PAL is showing me a total resolution of 576 lines, even tho in each field there's only 288 lines drawn in each interlacing pass, with each line drawn with a blank line spacing separating it from the next one.
    The scan lines are more visible on NTSC than PAL as there are less picture lines occupying the same vertical / physical space on the screen (assume line width is similar if not equal, NTSC to PAL on same TV).
    The way I see it... so long as the TV can scan quick enough to draw 576 lines in one pass, instead of only 288 when interlacing, I cannot see what the problem will be. It's not that normal 576i PAL is drawing 288 lines in each field of video with the lines already close together - they have to be separated from each other by one blank line spacing, to leave room for the next set of odd / even lines coming in the next field... so that seen together, they give a full 576 lines and one equivalent frame of film. The TV's should be designed well enough that the consecutive sets of odd + even lines between adjacent fields should (to the eye) just appear to touch, thereby leaving no visible 'wasted space'. Of course, there does appear to be some space between lines on interlaced... we'll see how it looks when running ProgScan, but could be that the dark lines are less visible in ProgScan as the edges of eached drawn line are now very close together and not separated by a blank line space.. so, all line 'positions' have a drawn line on each pass... the edges of the phosphors are glowing and appear to fill-in those thin dark lines between the actual line positions. When interlacing, the previous set of lines are already starting to fade by the time the next set of lines are being drawn, thus accentuating the appearance of dark "scan" lines. (my theory)
    So the set MUST be drawing a total of 576 lines across any two adjacent interlaced fields. If it has the frequency ability to draw all lines in one pass and in 1/25 of a second instead of half the lines in the same time...
    ..like I said, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

    Steve

    later
     
  14. groundy

    groundy
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    Pete:

    The Vitros with the Q2500 chassis should be no different in terms of features to the Aconda with the Q2500 chassis (which I have). It has both PIP and Split Screen. It sounds to me like Loewe are giving their usual "we don't have a clue about anything" answers. I could be wrong though I would hold out and test one if it's the Vitros you're really after.
     
  15. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Steve,

    Have you already tried it, when, and what are you going to use... :confused:

    Please let us know, as I have my phone ready to order a Loewe with the new chassis to use with my FMJ27...
     
  16. Ludae

    Ludae
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    Steve, your theory is correct, however, just because a CRT can scan 576 lines interlaced doesn't mean that when scanning them progressively the lines won't overlap. It is often the case that when switching to progressive on some display devices then scanlines do overlap and is one of the reasons people might complain the progressive image lacks sharpness.

    Interlacing does have the dubious benefit of allowing for higher scanline counts than could be possible if scanned progressively, by virtue of the fact that the spaces bewteen the scan lines don't have to be equal to a scanline thickness, indeed this fact allows many so called HDTV CRTs to display 1080i @60 in the USA and Japan. 1080p on those displays would look very poor by comparison.
     
  17. Steve1138

    Steve1138
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    Ludae... good points. My theory was nice (in theory !) but you & Gordon could well be right.

    We'll See !!!

    9 am Monday morning... so by the afternoon.. well, just watch this space...
    It'll be with a
    new ARTICOS (32")
    iScan Pro
    my Panny Sky Digibox
    my Pioneer 636D DVD (don't laugh.. we all have to start somewhere !)

    Lowrider - unless the FMJ27 has VGA out (which I think it doesn't)... what will the new 2500 chassis do for you ?
    I don't think the AV inputs will take a ProgScan signal and the only way to GET a ProgScan signal in - is thru the VGA module.

    I think you're already using component out thru the SCART of yr ARCAM into AV3... which will show NTSC in ProgScan already (using the built in Philips de-interlacer chip) but show PAL in 100Hz. You could try switching the Byte 3 / bit 5... which is supposed to show PAL in ProgScan, BUT Gordon mentioned he didn't see any difference doing this.. and my LOEWE dealer jsut tried it with same result. (ie: to him - none).
    Maybe it's a limitation of the Philips chip (wouldn't THAT be a surprise !) or a degradation of the ProgScan due to line overlap (as mentioned twice on this page).

    I e-mailed the guy at the LOEWE factory for exact details for switching the de-interlacer on for PAL but didn't hear back yet. Prob have to call him during the demo Monday

    Be aware also that the MediaPlus chassis's come in 3 flavours - low, medium & high.

    Steve
     
  18. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Thanks Steve,

    I know I have to use something like the Key Digital converter to VGA, or else, apparently the FMJ has the VGA outputs inside, and someone offered to wire them for me...

    Please keep us posted how the Iscan will work with the VGA module and PAL progressive...
     
  19. Steve1138

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