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Loewe...component in and prog scan..my findings!

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Gordon @ Convergent AV, Nov 17, 2001.

  1. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Well so far this is what I've found on our Loewe Aconda using a DV88 as source.

    Aconda does have ability to choose between, RGB, YsUV and YUVsync on composite, all on the AV3 scart input. I can confirm that all three settings work...sort of. Well, I can get a picture with the DVD player outputtingg the appropriate interlaced signal and the TV set to receive that signal.

    I have found that using these input type signals the TV exhibits a white clipping problem. ie High brightness detail is lost and it's not possible to retrieve it by lowering contrast. I'm going to investigate this more fully.

    Here were settings I used for all. Checked with AVIA. Contrast40, Normal,Brightness 25, Sharp1, Colour 40.

    Now on to the prog scan thing. I compared a composite, YsUV and RGB signal on an a-b loop of Gladiator, Battle of Carthage ntsc region1 DVD. I saw no difference in the interlacing artefacts. Each signal exhibited the sort of problems associated with a lack of 3:2 detection or just no de-interlacing at all. I will now go and check what happens when you disable byte 3, bit5 in the service menu........So far though I would be very charitable in saying that the Aconda has particularily good de-interlacing.

    Incidentally while writing this I've just had a visit from PegFace (forum member reknowned for his BARCO801 crt)....OK off to play a bit more!

    Gordon
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK part two:

    Put same loop on, feeding component with sync on Y. Turned Byte3 Bit5 on and off. Saw no difference in artefacts. Still tons of them.

    Now going to see if I can sort out the white clipping thing. So far though it looks like the only way to get a high quality, or what I would call high quality, de-interlaced signal to one of these things is through the VGA input card.

    Gordon
     
  3. brattle

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    Gordon, Thanks for going to all the trouble. It would be very interesting to see what Lowrider has his settings set to.
     
  4. Matt Horne

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    Hi... This is just the topic I've been looking for.. as I am thinking of buying a Vitros for use with a DV88.

    So Gordon is the current consensus then that the TV does not de-interlace the signal?? I have to say I dod not completely follw what you did (whats YsuV?).

    Is the picture you are getting any good ?.. are you using a DV88 with or without the Prog Scan upgrade??

    I want to ensure that I get the best pic possible.. I also want to here from lowrider on this..

    Cheers

    Matt
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The picture is actually pretty good for a TV set. YUV is the nomenclature that Loewe use on their sets for a component (YPrPb) signal. The little s in my YsUV signifies that the sync signal is carried on the Y constituent.

    All these tests were done with a standard DV88 outputting through its SCART output an interlaced NTSC signal. The only way to feed a Progressive scan signal IN to the Loewe's is through the VGA board.

    From what I've done today I would say that you'll get vastly superiour de-interlacing by using some form of off-board scaling. I am unable to tell from watching that scene on Galdiator whether the Aconda was actually 100Hz ing or progscanning. They all looked the same.....except the composite fed signal which had other colour video decoder artefacts as well.

    I didn't specifically try to compare RGB v YUV(YPrPb) input other than to check for de-interlacing artefacts. However, both these signals exhibited the white clipping problem but not to the extent that they didn't look better than the composite image.

    A TV tube works in RGB. A DVD is encoded in YPrPb. The lack of any obvious difference between feeding the Aconda an RGB or YPrPb signal from an Arcam DV88 would suggest that the DVD players ability to turn YPrPb to RGB is as good as the TV's ability to do the same thing. ie it ends up RGB anyway you're just comparing where it's done.

    I want to look in to this more but damn customers keep getting in the way. Looks like it'll have to wait for a short while.

    As it stands I still feel these Loewe chassis TV's are the best 32" flat screens I've been able to play with. I don't believe they have exceptional de-interlacing though.......but then I've never seen a normal TV that does!

    Gordon
     
  6. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Gordon

    Can you confirm they do have de-interlacing? I remain to be convinced and have a sneaking suspicion that they don't. I thought that the might de-interlace the PS VGA input and just do 100 Hz on the other inputs. I have no proof to hand just a suspicion....

    Tube specs?

    Hope you are feeling better, sorry I missed you the other day.
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Hi Dominic: I can't say I can tell if it's prog scanning or not. Just looking at the artefacts on Galdiator I would say if it is it's not very good at it. I need more time and some test patterns to try and find out more I think.

    We have a customer who has managed to get the thing to sync to around 520P from his PC then it gives up. I can't believe it will do 576P. Loewe themselves say that it'll show an 800 x 600 signal as interlaced when fed to the VGA input. The US sites ay it'll do 1080i/540P. Perhaps the US version is slightly different!

    Gordon

    Gordon
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Gordon

    The input signal to the VGA input is progressive, if Loewe are saying it will show 800 x 600 as interlaced I might be right in my thinking that they de-interlace the incoming signal. Doooh.

    I still have a sneaking suspicions on this. I think the tube can only do 16khz, therefore it can't do progressive scan without de-interlacing it. The Loewe is based on Philpis tubes and their UK Prog scan capable tubes weren't available when this Loewe range was launched
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    They say it'll show 640 X 480 progressive and 800 x 600 INTERLACED.

    Having fed a 480P RGsB signal to it, using the infamous Star Trek Insurrection scene I can confirm that I''m sure it does show 480P, not 480i on the VGA input, if fed a progressive signal.

    Gordon
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Just thought a bit more about this Nic. The tube isn't the limiting factor here. It's the electonics driving it. Loewe's chassis may be better than the Philips one, indeed I'm sure it is.

    Of course the scan lines may be overlapping with the tube they use but that's another topic!

    Gordon
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff
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    I don't use my Loewe anymore (sitting under the stairs at the mo), but I can confirm that it does do 32Khz through the VGA port. Gordon, was the Gladiator DVD you tested R1 or R2? To me R1 stuff always looked better and the scan lines less visible, this led me to believe that 60Hz R1 stuff was being deinterlaced and R2 stuff used regular 100Hz. I also remember reading something on the net that confirms this.

    Jeff
     
  12. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Interesting stuff guys, if anyone has anymore info please keep us up to date. It looks like a PS NTSC vs 100hz PAL. Not the ideal solution, didn't lowrider have the solution to that?

    I have a friend who is split between these TVs and Tosh.
     
  13. Napoleon

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    Hello,i know it's a bit off topic but is it possible to replace a televisions shadow mask.I have yellowish colour patches over a lot of the screen.The dealer is going in circles. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Lowrider

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    Sorry, I only saw this thread now,

    I didn´t have to change any standard settings, except the AV3, that I changed to "auto... YsUV"

    Loewe´s tech said that somewhere in the service menu there are NTSC and PAL Proscan settings, but they are ON on the latest software version, are you sure you tested with the latest version ?

    I do get a much better image than using RGB input from the same DV88 from Arcam...
     
  15. Lowrider

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  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Hi Antonio.

    Not quite sure what you want me to ckeck at Sensory Science? Anyway, could you go to your service menu and let me know chassis and software you have. It could be our dem unit doesn't have the latest software with 3:2 detection. If it does then it's broken or their implimentation is poor.

    I don't doubt your results but I'm pretty sure about mine too. Something is amiss!

    Gordon
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Another question Antonio: Just been looking closer at Sens Science site. Their spiel about 3:2 says that you can set the display to "normal" "super" or "off" for Film Mode. Do you have these settings on your TV?

    I'll check ours tomorrow.

    They also say that ALL NTSC sourced material is de-interlaced. They don't specify that it has to be sent in by component so I'm beggining to think the US version isn't the same as the Eurpoean one......

    Gordon
     
  18. Lowrider

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    Chassis Q2400,
    Software D5.1
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK ours is same chassis and software, 2400, 5.1

    I looked all through the menu's and couldn't find the "film mode" settings of "normal, super and off"

    So from this I would deduce that the US model, that de-interlaces all NTSC material using 3:2 pulldown, is different from the UK one. All the visual evidence I have supports this. So who wants to email Loewe and see if we can get a sensible answer? I'd suggest mailing Germany. Anyone know German?

    Gordon
     
  20. Jeff

    Jeff
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    All the technical questions I have emailed them have been answered by Linn in the UK. The answers have also tended to be inaccurate. Maybe if we translate a query through Babel Fish and translate the answer back into English we might get something that makes some sense. :D

    Jeff
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I'll compose an email in English and get it translated and sent to LoeweDE....

    Gordon
     
  22. Mekon

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    I hope you aren't using bablefish, it renders most stuff english>german pretty unintelligible I'm told by my bilingual mates.

    If you want something shortish translated, I can get it done. PM me if you want me to.
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Thanks for the offer Mekon.

    I'm going to get a German tech guy (designer of the Bonnec amps we used at The Event) to do it for me. He has good English and hopefully better German....

    Gordon
     
  24. Steve1138

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    exactly the thread I was waiting for !

    Hope GORDON can fill in the missing details...

    I am looking to upgrade in order to eliminate the horrendous MOTION ARTEFACTS that I have with my current 3 yr old Philips 32" 100Hz 32PW9763/25.
    <http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/Televisions/Philips/Philips32PW976325.shtml>.
    Loewe with progressive scan is my current favoured option.

    (1) PRO SCAN on the LOEWE...
    I've talked to 2 techies at Loewe UK and at Owl Video (for the silicon image iScan pro). Here's what I found out:

    - Feed an already processed ProScan signal through the VGA module.
    - iScan pro has 3 inputs and auto detects NTSC and PAL. It also outputs the ProScan signal at the same frequency as the interlaced input signal. (i.e.: doesn't output PAL 60).
    - Fitting an extra Loewe gizmo on the back of the tube allows 800 x 600 resolution. (costs about 50 quid) Not confirmed yet if this would also allow de-interlaced / ProScan at the higher resolution.
    - Current chassis (2400) will only lock onto a 60Hz ProScan signal. They believe the forthcoming 2500 chassis will lock onto a 50 Hz ProScan signal, but this chassis is only available now in the 28" Vitros at the moment. Other Vitros & Aconda sizes should follow fairly soon with the new 2500 chassis.

    What I still find confusing is - how different would the picture look when using a VGA vs SVGA resolution with ready processed Pro Scan input. Not having had the good fortune to see all this set up (yet) I can only go off experience with PC display settings.. (!!)

    (2) on MOTION ARTEFACTS
    Where from ?
    For me, these are most noticable on Sky Digital... but the more I look the more / easier I see them... and even see it on a few of my DVD's now. Mainly three things:
    - edge distortion / shimmering, typically / most easily noticed around edges of moving objects / people. Looks a bit like heat haze
    - picture crawl. Parts of an image (eg.: parts of a face) seem to float around relative to each other. Very disconcerting (and unnatural)
    - general tizziness. Stand about 2' from screen and tilt your head sideways 90°... you see it all better.. including scan lines
    This is with Noise Reduction and Natural Motion off

    Why ?
    Guy at Owl Video said artefacts are caused by low bit rate on some Sky channels, and I guess ultimately it's down to how much the digital processing in the set is 'upset' by low bit rates (as 50 Hz sets don't do it). I think low bit rate may more often cause the picture crawl effect, whereas my Philips has bad motion edge effects all the time (to various extents) on Sky channels... even after I recently upgraded from Pace Mk 1 Sky Digibox to a new Panasonic Digibox. so it's obviously the TV

    I just spent some time looking at a 28" VITROS (with 2500 chassis) with a Mk 1 Pace digibox and still saw some (but much reduced) edge motion effects on Sky channels - but it was still there, so either the Loewe is not infallible here, or it was the old Pace digibox - or both.

    What I need to see is - using the Silicon Image iScan pro feeding ProScan signal (from DVD and Sky) through a Loewe VGA (SVGA ?) input.. do you ELIMINATE the motion artefacts which plague the in-set digital processing ?
    is the SIL503 chip set doing a better job that the gubbins inside the TV...
    I assume that the LOEWE VGA input module totally by passes the set's digital gimmickry and basically send the signal "straight to the 3 guns".

    Besides any other improvement from the iScan - this will be the acid test for me.

    Also recently saw the iScan in action on a ceiling mounted SELECO CRT projector with (non-proScan) DV88... very impressed.
    Guy at owl video even said he prefers the look of the iScan picture compared to the ProScan output on a ARCAM 27 FMJ.. surprising, as it's the same chip set.

    Gordon ????!!!!! any more to add ????

    Steve
     
  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK here are some answer to questions you pose.

    Sending Sky to an Iscan then to the VGA socket of anything with the 2400 chassis is a no-no. It won't sync. I can not confirm the 2500 chassis on 28" Vitros for you. I woud like to see it before spending any money if I were you.
    NTSC DVD will work fine.

    The 800 x 600 SVGA signal, when sent in progressive form to a 2400 chassis Loewe with VGA input, is displayed INTERLACED as the set doesn't have capability of showing 600P.

    The DVD2800, FMJ27 and Iscan pro all use the same SIL chipset. They do not all look the same. There is more to it than that. Feeding a poor signal to an ISCAN and comparing it with an FMJ and I'd exepct the FMJ to be better. Feed the Iscan a signal from a TAG DVD32r and compare it to an Iscan and it would be a different answer. Then of course there's the matter of how your chosen display device handles a progressive signal. Some may require tweaking of the brightness and contrast controls of the incoming signal. DVD2800 and Iscan have the facility but FMJ doesn't.

    So the comments from OWL are only representative of their own system, not yours or anyone elses.

    I think the only way to solve your dilemma is to try and find some dealer with a Vitros, Iscan and Sky....

    Gordon
     
  26. Steve1138

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    OK
    I just got my local LOEWE dealer here in Switzerland all fired up to try and get a Pro Scan picture via the AV3 input... (what's more, they also have a set with a VGA module, and another dealer offerred to lend me an iSCAN to test out..!!! Take the Toblerone and run !!) but I want to make sure I've got all the right info. I read thru this whole thread again (and a couple of others)
    hopefully those who seem to have experience of this (Gordon, Lowrider & Jeff) can help make the definitive summary of settings / requirements.

    Which of the 2 available YUV inputs to select in the AV3 input setup

    Do you need to go into the service menu and set the byte 3, bit 5 - and what exactly do you need to set (on or off)

    If using a DVD player with component output phonos, how should the SCART lead be wired to the phonos (I guessed you use the RGB pins (pin numbers ?) on the SCART to the YUV phonos of the DVD - but which goes to which ?

    Does it really work on both NTSC and PAL material (I think Lowrider claimed t did) - and how do you tell ? Do the scan lines disappear ?
    (I found that by tilting my head over at 90°, I could see the scan lines much easier)

    If getting a Pro Scan picture (or even an external deinterlacer like the iSCAN) shows a visible improvement on a LOEWE, does it make any difference using a line doubler - or is it limited by the vertical resolution of the TV

    Is there any way to convert an S-video signal or even the RGB from a Sky box to the YUV format required by the LOEWE ? (so you can get Pro Scan on more than just the DVD source.
    (If not - then it looks like it'll have to be the iSCAN + VGA module)

    THX guys
    Steve
     
  27. Buckster

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    Can't help with the Proscan part of this argument, but I have a few questions regarding my Loewe Vitros 6381ZW, hopeing someone might have some answers:

    (1) Major gripe, is that although the picture quality is stunning, in terms of depth of black, colour separation, convergence etc, the picture seems quite soft, both with Digital Cable TV and DVD via RGB. All Digital Processing switched off, sharpness at 3, doesn't seem as sharp as the Panasonic Tau 100Hz TV I have replaced ? Possible focus settings are out ?

    (2) DMI/DMM seems to work quite well, but seems to get really confused if you have scrolling text, and a scrolling picture ?

    (3) How do you get into the service menu on a Vitros ?

    Best Regards,

    Buckster
     
  28. Lowrider

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    As I use SCART to SCART with the Arcam DV88, I don´t know how to set the cable otherwise.

    I use the YUV input that starts with "auto...".

    What I am sure is that the image on PAL DVDs is the same quality as NTSC DVDs, and as someone from Loewe told me there where Proscan settings for both on the firmware, I assume it works with both...

    I prefer to set all the filters off...

    I learned how to get to the service menu in an older post (couldn´t find it again), but I ended up not changing anything there... I don´t remember how :blush:
     
  29. Buckster

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    OK, I'm completely confused now. I phoned up the Scottish Loewe service line today, and spoke to a seemingly knowledgable support person. He said that neither the Acondas or Vitros, UK versions will do Progressive scan with NTSC, full stop. Only the American versions will do it, the option is still in the UK versions to enable/disable it, but it doesn't do anything. He said that this is Byte 6, Bit 1 on Vitros (is this the same as on Aconda, I've heard Byte 5, Bit 3 ?). Is this true ? Can you tell if it is outputting NTSC as Progressive Scan, is the diffence large enough ? All I can see is that I get flicker on Region 1 DVD menus, 60 Hz ?

    Regards,

    Buckster
     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    So it would seem that Loewe UK have just confirmed exactly what my eyes have been telling me......just need Loewe DE to confirm it too to put all this to rest....

    Gordon
     

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