Lip sync on 963SA

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Underscore, Jan 31, 2003.

  1. Underscore

    Underscore
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    Just when I was feeling well chuffed with my new 963SA, I sat down to watch Jurassic Park. Everything fine until the cast sat down for a meal after feeding the velociraptors - their voices were noticably out-of-sync! :( Bizarrely, after 5 or 10 minutes, things returned to normal and the rest of the film appeared to be in sync. I've now rewatched that scene a few times and found that it is always out-of-sync (by 100-200ms at a guess) in progressive, never OOS in interlaced component/S-video or RGB SCART. I've also found a similar thing - going OOS for a short period - in the Benelux version of The Commitments. :mad: What do I have to do to get a decent source to feed my Z1???

    Anyway, I've reported this to Philips and will let you know what their reply is when I get it.

    Mutter... curse... mutter

    _
     
  2. MartinCo

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    what region Jurassic Park?
     
  3. Underscore

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    Jurrasic Park is the R2 Collector's. I also noticed it on my R1 Little Shop of Horrors at the weekend, so it also affects some NTSC discs. I also tried playing Jurrasic Park in 480p - no difference, still OOS!

    _
     
  4. MartinCo

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    some discs are badly lipsynced anyway, so those few ms to do progressive scan may just tip the edge a bit more I suppose... might explain LSOH anyway.

    Both Lock Stock and Lost in Space were fairly notorious for being badly dubbed 3-4 years ago for example, even in normal interlaced output.

    odd that the section in JP R2 only last 10 minutes though... the dubbing could be slightly off in that section. running in 480p should be no different if it is a specific problem with the R2 disc.

    does it make any difference if you restart from the nearest chapter mark? (this may resync the audio, if it drifts over time as a film continues).

    the denon 2800s (not sure about the 3800) had problems with lipsync on R2 discs so its not unusual amongst players...
     
  5. JamesPA

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    I've just being setting up my 963SA, connected to an old 50Hz Sony TV via RGB scart, and Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector via YUV component. The unit is set to PAL progressive scan unprocessed.

    With the TV just below the projector screen, I was dismayed to see that when playing R2 Gladiator (opening scene), the progressive picture was very noticeably (250ms maybe) BEHIND the scart picture!

    Trying R2 AOTC (opening scene), the progressive picture was just IN FRONT of the scart picture (not so much, maybe 100ms)!

    In both cases, the speech seemed to match the picture on the scart.

    Anyone else noticed this? It's weird to me that it varies with different DVDs - might have to try again and see if the problem is consistent with those discs.
     
  6. MartinCo

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    I've always found the scart into the tv slightly ahead of the sound going into the dvd... even without progressive scan.

    did you set your speaker distances/ delays differently for amp and projector.


    anyway, regardless of comparing the TV picture against the projector's and the sound, could you actually spot any lipsync problems with the discs running normally, ie with the TV not switched on?
     
  7. JamesPA

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    Hi Martin,

    Thanks for the idea - I forgot I could delay the speakers if the picture does lag on the projector.

    You are right of course - If I didn't have the TV on at the same time then I proably wouldn't have noticed the delay at all! :) Of course if I set the speaker delays then it should be spot-on.

    Cheers,

    James
     
  8. MartinCo

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    or at least better... its not a cure-all though if there really is a really bad lipsync problem.
     
  9. Underscore

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    I don't know... a 250ms delay would definitely be very noticable when the mouth speaking the words is a foot or more across! I now have 4 discs where, at different times, the delay varies from "That looks a bit funny" (~100ms at a guess) to "I thought this was a Hollywood blockbuster, not a badly dubbed Kung Fu movie" (~500ms or so). All are spot on with interlaced over component. My dealer has just put in an order for a replacement so, when it arrives, we will see if the problem is fixed. I really hope that it is because, apart from that, it is really a very good player for the money...

    _
     
  10. JamesPA

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    Underscore, I hope your new machine works out better, and a firmware fix does materialise for all of us.

    Ok, after a bit more testing, I've come to the conclusion that via progressive scan, the picture is about 100ms behind the speech on average (Gladiator, AOTC, Pitch Black, Bend it Like Beckham, all R2). And after some more time watching, I am now conscious of the delayed lip-synch most of the time.

    AFAIK there's nothing I can do about it on my amp (Yamaha 630) as you can only delay centre speaker by 5ms max, and there's no overall digital sound delay setting.

    The speaker delay settings on the DVD963SA only affect multichannel analogue output, I think. And anyway, they are in the region of only a few ms.

    Am I missing something here? I find a movie more watchable in interlace because of this! Not why I bought the Philips!

    Cheers.
     
  11. MartinCo

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    presumably R1 DVDs are fine and the bug is just with some R2 disks?
     
  12. Underscore

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    Nope. Watched 'Little Shop of Horrors' with the g/f at the weekend. She commented on how OOS it was, so it's not just me. ;) Having said that, it wasn't as bad as the PAL discs and it didn't seem to vary as much. Also, it was the first time I've watched that DVD and I didn't try it on interlaced so it could be a bad disc - though I've not heard any complaints.

    _
     
  13. MartinCo

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    the dubbing in some films is pretty roped anyway so I'd ignore LSOH for now, unless you can find another R1 disc to compare, preferably something more popular that others have.

    for the moment, the problem does sound similar to the Denon 2800's one with the lipsync out on R2 only.
     
  14. TimF

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    Underscore

    Sorted my lip sync problem out by measuring the distances from speakers and setting delay accurately.

    Also dialled in 20ms master audio delay on the amp for dvd sources and hey presto - no problems so far.

    At this stage I would say you might just have a faulty machine - because when I enter a 200ms delay in master audio the lip sync is miles out.

    If this is the degree of problem you had then it was definitley not the same as mine.

    Fingers crossed when you get a new machine it just might be ok.

    Cheers


    Timbo
     
  15. jonny m

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    Does anyone use the 963 with multichannel out to your amp instead of using the digital connection??

    Wonder if that would be an improvement, Im going to be using my 963 in this way as it beats the dsp on my yamaha dsp a5 by a wide margin, the sound seems smooth, the a5 sounds like the sound moves in steps in comparison.

    The 20ms delay sounds about right TimF, as with progressive the picture should only be 20ms behind the interlaced picture and so the sound.

    I have experienced lip sync with R2 ATOC but thats all really.

    Cheers
    John
     
  16. JamesPA

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    In my experience, with both TV running from RGB scart and projector from progressive scan unprocessed PAL (R2 - not tried R1), the time delay of projector picture behind TV is so easily noticeable, I can't believe it is just 20ms (1/50th of a second) as I doubt I'd notice it at all - 20ms is only about half a frame! My estimate is 100ms. In which case it's impossible for the sound to sync with both images.

    As a test, if you press the pause button during a fast moving scene, you will see the TV picture pause much sooner than the projector. When the pj finally pauses, the images on both displays are identical.

    It could be down to a delay introduced by the projector (PLV-Z1), but I reckon this is unlikely as on interlaced component output (which should be harder for the pj to process), the pictures of the TV and pj seem totally in sync.
     
  17. MartinCo

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    james, its nothing to do with the projector (the interlaced test being okay proves this).
    it solely to do with the DVD player introducing a longer or inconsistent delay in picture/sound when it progressively scans a R2 dvd.

    the Denon 2800 had this problem also - pal progressive was unsupported at that point so there never was a fix..
    the Denon correctly pscanned the r2 dvd but was I think calculating the sound sync based on the pulldown for r1 dvds or similar.
    hence the sound could go out of sync and drift by a frame or more every few minutes.
    this didn't really happen badly on all discs, just really noticeable on occasional sections of some discs - sound familar?

    this should be fixable now though since pal progressive is supported out of the box by philips - at least vaguely.

    with a 3803 you're lucky anyway.. not many people have this feature in their amps or dvd players.

    20-40 ms sounds about right - that is a noticeable (but short) amount of time, and could be spotted.

    for people with plasmas, I gather its an even worse situation with the panel itself adding another 20ms+ giving even more of a lipsync problem... 40-80ms+ have been mentioned in their forum.

    think of handsclapping or guns going off and anything 20+ ms would be visible.

    250ms would waay out of sync.. people would be in a different sentence if this was the case... 20-40 is more likely if its a consistent driift.

    slightly OT but this was actually a test in Life of Mammals interactive this week... words going off the screen in different speeds in miliseconds and seeing how quickly the human brain could process and read them. the human brains limit was about 10ms, anything more was reasonably easy.
     
  18. sr78

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    Would this problem occur when using the 963SA with a CRT, like the Panny TX32PH40 or JVC 32D25? I'm considering buying the 963 with one of these TV sets.
     
  19. MartinCo

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    no, we are talking solely about progressive scan, the interlaced output is fine... (assuming these aren't progscan TVs.. no real use on a 32" anyway).
     
  20. gringottsdirect

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    Both tvs will accept Pal-Progressive, but I agree with Martin's comments regarding 32".
     
  21. sr78

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    Actually the reason I want either of these TVs is progressive scan. So I'll definitely be using it. I heard from a lot of people that despite the size, the difference between interlaced en progressive is still huge...
     
  22. MartinCo

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    fair point if so. can't really see the point on a 32" TV, especially with the various 100hz modes.. 26-28" real width across is tiny compared to something like a 7-9 ft projector screen.. some benefits I guess but not as big an amount surely?

    do these TVs do both pal and ntsc progressive scan or just ntsc like some of the Toshs?

    re: the philips 963 - just re-reading some old threads on lipsync problems and John Dawson (Arcam) made a point that the Sil503 causes a standard delay of 3 frames approx 50 ms, and the audio is reset according to this - the sage/ faroudja is going to be very similar in "cost".

    however in pal, the 3 frames or more last longer at approx - another 10-20 ms.. so if the adjustment hasn't been done correctly here, it becomes much more noticeable.

    if the dialog is dubbed and slightly off then that would explain the estimates of 20 ms that James is talking about (for R2 DVDs).
     
  23. sr78

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    Regarding the improvements of PS on a 32inch CRT: since both TVs perform very well in their class regardless of PS, they're still high on my list. Same goes for the DVD player.

    Regarding the lip sync problems: I was thinking (hoping?) that, due to the inherent lip sync problems caused by plasmas and projectors that using a CRT would make the lip sync issues, if present, so small that they'd be unnoticeable...
     
  24. MartinCo

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    NO, if the lipsync problems are being caused by the progscan chipset then you'll still see it on a normal TV.

    agreed, plasmas are known for their additional delay problem (another 20-30 ms on top) but projectors don't tend to be as bad.

    a fix shouldn't be too difficult if its just the correct delay for pal @ 50 frames... 10-20 ms being noticeable.
     
  25. sr78

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    How do you mean a fix? As in firmware?

    What is Philips' policy on firmware anyway? On beisammen.de there is a topic on new firmware for the 963... supossedly it improves picture quality. Would it be installed on new machines?
     

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