Linn Ninka hitting 20Hz?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Daneel, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. Daneel

    Daneel
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    I had a demo of some more speakers today which I will post about later on. For now I wanted input on 3 points raised by the guy in the Hi-fi shop.

    1. The Linn Ninka actively biamped can hit 20Hz @ -3 dB, in room.

    2. The guy can hear (not just feel but hear) the 20 Hz note.

    3. CDs cannot reproduce notes lower than 20Hz.

    I find the first one very hard to believe given that there aren't that many subwoofers that manage this, the bass driver on the Ninka is under 6.5" and the quoted frequency response when actively driven is 38Hz-20KHz +/- 3dB.

    The 2nd one I didn't think was true either. I didn't think anyone could hear much under 30Hz never mind 20Hz. A web search shows that I was wrong, see here.

    The third I'm not sure about but I would give him the benefit of the doubt as I haven't looked at the spec for CD for such a long time.

    Comments, on 1 in particular?
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I would suggest number 1 is drivel particularily s Linn themselves say it only goes to 38Hz at -3db

    The second has to be unikely too given the asnwer to the first. However if he says he can hear 20Hz, but not necessarily from a Ninka, that itself may be true. Our ability to hear tones is not linear though so to hear 20Hz it would have to be LOUD.

    The third...well I thought the whole point of CD was that it was bandwidth limited to the human hearing range so this is probably true.

    Gordon
     
  3. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    3 true, if you look at the lowest notes acoustic music hits, apart from huge church organ they are quite large (link on this site somewhere from the past), electronic goes a little lower but for CD these maga low subs are just not necessary and why many RELs work with music not AV. AV (DVD) on the other hand can go MUCH lower

    2 you now know the truth

    1 Linn speakers often have some impressive specs but Ninka, at 20 Hz -3dB even in room rather than anaechoic is a no no. This figure is what they claim for their big flagship ball park and it has two decent sized drivers servo actively driven. Did you ask him about the rumour Linn Kans reach 14 Hz?
     
  4. Nimby

    Nimby
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    I personally cannot hear much below 30Hz on my subwoofers at <100dB> output fed with a pure sine wave. There is a distinct transition at about 30Hz from a feeling of movement to a fluttering effect heard without any sense of tone. A slow, soft purr.
    This could be a personal age effect/defect and younger people not subjected to pop concerts, industrial noise, shooting and high levels on personal stereo headphones may be able to do better.
    The moment harmonics are added to the sine wave tone much lower frequncies can be heard. Since harmonics are caused by distortion bass can be heard to a much lower frequency on distorting subwoofers.
    There is a graph of the human hearing response called the Fletcher Munson (or equal loudness) curves. Bass can only be heard at much higher volumes than the middle fequencies. Where the ear is much more sensitive with the latter. 75dB more sensitive acccording to the contours of the graph!

    http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/equal_loudness.html

    Nimby

    PS. I listened to classical organ music for many years on Linn Kans. But only thanks to two large passive subs reaching 20Hz(-3dB). Even a 40Hz rolloff is not suitable for organ music. Enter the SVS PCi 16-46!
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  6. stevegreen

    stevegreen
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    Now there's a loaded question! :D
     
  7. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Guy in Rayleigh Hi-fi, Chelmsford. I thought he was pretty cool the first time I met him, but when I came out the demo without going "OMG WOW BEST SPEAKERS I'VE EVER HEARD!" he seemed to get a bit defensive. I said that I liked the midrange a lot, vocals were nice but there was something not quite right about the bass, perhaps extension.

    He put on a couple of CDs, Evanessence and some track by Madonna which is supposed to have a 20 Hz tone at the start. The bass was certainly present so I admited I was wrong about the extension. Thinking back on it though, it wasn't the kind of ground shaking bass I would expect from sub 30Hz tones.

    Maybe I misread him or he thought I was wasting his time and so didn't really care. I didn't come away with a great impression of him. The rest of the guys in the shop were nice though, as was the guy I dealt with in the morning at the Rayleigh branch where I demoed the JM Lab 936 and the PMC FB1.
     
  8. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I dont often add my comments re dealers but have had mixed experiences with Rayleigh over the years,finding them initially very good indeed some years ago,but perhaps a bit over enthusiastic with respect to some items recently.

    I think that any good dealer will offer advice,but remember that in the end,the customer is right in terms of what they expect.

    As to the Ninka,with active amplification,and suitable in-room reinforcement,you may get detectable output at 20Hz,but as Gordon and beekeeper say,it's not going to go to 20Hz at -3dB.....I had a set of Linn Keltiks,which certainly would go down that deep,at that sort of volume,but those were a wholly different speaker from the Ninka,weighing in at over 60kgs a piece,and running over 600W of Krell amplification.

    True full range speakers remain a very expensive option compared to limited range plus a good sub(which in itself is not a cheap option,if you look to the upper end of sub prices and quality).
     
  9. micb3rd

    micb3rd
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    Not going to comment on 1.

    But...


    2) 20hz is easly heard (not just felt) by some and not so easly for others. People do require a higher SPL level of it than higher bass frequencies. approx 70-90 DB worth of solid 20 hz is where people can often can start hearing it.

    I can absolutly hear right down to 20hz, I have a subwoofer system in my car which gives 20hz strong above 100DB (Tested on quite accurate Audiocontrol mics and my regular SPL meter with corrected values).

    3) CD's can hold information below 20 hz, I have test CD's which has output tones which play at 15 hz and 10 hz.

    The information is definatly there because I have run them through FTT software and can clearly see the sound.
     
  10. ~Kev H~

    ~Kev H~
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    I'm with micb3rd on this one, I cant remember what track or album but there have definately been occasions where I have been listening to a CD with covers removed and have been fascinated to see the bass cones moving slowly in and out. Maybe even lower than 10Hz as they were not even blur-ing to the eye if you get what I mean.

    I thought that was how MP3 and other such compressed formats worked.. saving on size by only taking the 20Hz to 20kHz frequency range... ?
     
  11. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    No MP3 works by compression algorithms that throw away the notes which are masked by other notes. ie They store what they think you can perceive not what is recorded.

    Gordon
     
  12. Nimby

    Nimby
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    At the risk of boring you all to sleep with SVS I would point you at the FAQ on the SVS website.

    Section 11 is Bass demo material. Scroll down to CDs at the bottom of the very long bass demo reference DVD list to find the CD list.

    The first section is mostly classical organ CDs which need 16Hz for the 32 foot pipes in large organs.

    But if you go further down to pop CDs you will see material listed down to 10Hz on 'ordinary' music CDs.

    http:// www.svsubwoofers.com/faq.htm

    Clicking on the linked titles will give you a diagram of the actual bass content.

    Nimby
     
  13. ~Kev H~

    ~Kev H~
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    I realise MP3 uses compression algorithms and discards other frequencies when they are masked by a louder or more audible one, but dont these algorithms work on the reduced frequency range to start with? I'm sure thats what I read somewhere but I'm no expert

    :confused:

    If I can locate/remember the CD I mentioned with the sub-sonic frequencies I'll "rip" it onto my laptop and try playing the mp3 through my system, see if the cones still flap about or not...

    Kev
     
  14. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Kev you are right mp3 does that too, but it depends on the encoder. That kind of option can be set when the file is encoded. It isn't going to limit the bass response though, it makes no sense to do it from an information size point of view given the effect it would have on the sound.
     
  15. deckard

    deckard
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    Tricky this one as I've done frequency sweeps with my active Keilidhs and in fact they stay level down to 15Hz when helped by ordinary room gain - decent manufacturers will measure anechoically.

    Now a caveat; what you can't measure with an SPL meter is distortion, so yes the Ninka's may have -3db output at 20Hz but the distortion may be as much as 50%, not the sub 1% manufacturers will quote.

    Take these figures with a large pinch of salt.
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  17. deckard

    deckard
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    Hence my advice Gordon, not to take these figures too seriously - ye olde RS SPL meter, C weighting, slow setting.

    I'd used the adjustment figures for LF correction, but it still hardly ranks as a cutting edge scientific instrument, so I'd hardly take that as 'evidence' of a +/- 3db response to 15Hz!!!

    I've probably got a graph knocking around on my work PC comparing the Keilidhs to my CHT-15. On the face of it, they win, but as I've mentioned - what's the distortion?
     
  18. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Fascinating.....having also had a set of biamped active Keilidhs before progressing to the Keltiks,I'd be amazed if they went anywhere near that low,even with room gain,as the Keltiks,in the same room and system went so much deeper...but I do accept the pinch of salt factor.
     
  19. deckard

    deckard
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    Agreed Alexs2 but here you go...

    Sub+mains response in blue (crossed over at 90Hz), Keilidh's only in pink. Try to ignore the truly awful frequency response, it's a little better now, but I calibrated the test tones to 75db at 1kHz so the ideal would be a flat line at 75db.

    Have a look and see.
     

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  20. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Right...I do see what you're saying there,but the response variation across the frequency range there is of the order of nearly 30dB from peak to trough,and I would also be sure that when the reference level you've used is lifted to a higher peak level,the relative output from the Keilidh's will tail off,and distortion will also rise massively....all the same,a very interesting set of plots,and you may be interested to know that the reason I sold my Keltiks was that even with the crossovers set for a 50Hz rolloff and bass level cut by a -3dB shelf,the bass response in a 250yr old timber framed house was just unmanageable.
     

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