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Limit 9900SE progscan to Loewe Aconda?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by drew, Dec 31, 2002.

  1. drew

    drew
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    This Limit 9900SE seems from other threads to be an amazing buy for those who can take a prog scan output.

    Question:
    Will my Aconda, with VGA board installed, take prog scan from this player without anything else in the middle? eg an Iscan.

    I've never been able to get my head around this, - if the player outputs prog scan and the TV can take a prog scan, why do you need something else in the middle?

    Haven't yet wired a DVD player to my Aconda, and decided to get the Tosh 220E to play with whilst deciding/reading up about Arcams and the like. Now I've seen the current threads about the Limit player, I don't know what to do.

    Please help.
     
  2. groundy

    groundy
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    Does the limit output Progressive Scan via VGA (RGB HV)? If so, then YES, you can hook it up directly to an Aconda with VGA Input. However, the likely scenario is that the Limit only outputs Progressive Scan via RCA Component. In this case, you will need a transcoder in between to convert the Progressive Component signal to VGA.
     
  3. drew

    drew
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    Ah...........

    OK, all those lucky Limit owners:

    Does the Limit 9900 output VGA as groundy says?
     
  4. dejongj

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    The VGA input is for a VGA signal but that is not the same as a component out as used on consumer DVD players for progressive scan signal.

    I am not familiar with the Loewe televisions so I cannot confirm whether the VGA input will display an interlaced or non-interlaced picture.

    What you require is a DVD player that can output a VGA signal, but tread carefully. Depending on the specifications of this VGA Input board it may not provide an improvement at all. If the VGA input board is capable of non-interlaced resolutions which could show a progressive scan DVD then go for it.

    As such you may have the following options:
    1. Consumer DVD player with component outputs and progressive scan such as the Limit 9900SE. You then have to use a transcoder like Audion Authority to get a VGA signal.
    2. Use a HTPC, with something like powerstrip you should be able to match the refresh rates and resolution of your TV perfectly and get a good result.
    3. Use a DVD player with VGA outputs, I have only heard of 1 and a half :confused: . Either the Skyworth or Nintaus from Hivizone, I can't check it here as the site is blocked by our firewall. Or alternatively I understand that the Pioneer 757 can come with an SDI modification for which you can then get a SDI to VGA converter.

    Alternatively, you don't state the screen size of your Aconda, forget about progressive scan. The benefits are definitely there on a large 8ft screen but arguably there are some very, very good players which output an RGB picture via scart. One I sampled was the Cyrus DVD7, an absolutely stunning player when used with a CRT monitor.

    Good luck,

    Jean-Paul
     
  5. drew

    drew
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    Thanks very much Sir dejongj

    My Aconda is a 32", so your point about screen size has me thinking. Although other guys have said the difference with prog scan on a CRT is amazing.

    Maybe I should buy that Tosh 220E after all. It's £119.95 at RS and has had good reviews. I can play with that for a while, and keep thinking about what I should do.

    So the VGA card might end up being a waste of cash. How often does that happen in HiFi/AV.......:rolleyes:
     
  6. dejongj

    dejongj
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    to see that someone is ready the small print; Sir Drew :D

    Going for the Tosh for now seems sensible. It has got some really good reviews, just make sure you use the RGB connection.

    Now I wouldn't discard the VGA board just yet. It is very difficult to comment on it when no specs are available. Do you have any documentation about it? Things to look for are capable input resolutions. Normally there is a little table of some-sort.

    I have tried the Loewe web site but there is no handbook for this option.

    Happy New Year,

    Jean-Paul
     
  7. drew

    drew
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    Yes, there was a very comprehensive box full of stuff that came with it. It's all up in the loft at the moment, so I'll have a look next time I'm up there.

    Just been following some threads about the Arcam DV88+, especially those relating to customer support. Looks like they must be the best in the business. Worth paying for in my opinion.

    When the DV88+ was spec'd up, perhaps it was built to optimise with other screens mainly in mind, - and not CRT. So maybe I need to decide whether I want to go prog scan before looking at players. I don't fancy having to loop another box between player and TV to get prog scan into my Aconda.

    Don't know about that Cyrus you mentioned. Can you remember how much it cost?
     
  8. drew

    drew
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    Oh, and a happy new year to you as well!

    Och Aye the noo

    :D
     
  9. groundy

    groundy
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    Just to clear things up a bit, The Loewe VGA Input will accept a pure progressive signal, albeit via VGA offcourse. Accepted resolution is 640x480. It's supposed to be able to sync at higher rates but it wouldn't do it for me. Others have reported success though.

    According to Steve1138, the resulting picture is astonishing but there is one major problem in the limited aspect ratio controls. When the Loewe is in VGA mode, you lose 16:9, Pan, 4:3, Cine, Zoom aspects and must rely instead on manual resizing using the VGA mode's geometry controls. I would imaging this to be a real pain and as such, not worth the hassle.

    See the following thread for more information (if you haven't already):

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36255

    :)
     
  10. dejongj

    dejongj
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  11. Carl R

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    The Krell DVD Standard also has a VGA output. Not exactly the cheapest player on the market though... I also believe the Primare DV25 has a VGA output. For any other player with component outputs a transcoder is needed.

    It is true that you lose the different format options of the Loewe and changing the format with the VGA geometry control is not much of an option since it is not possible to squeeze the width into a true 4:3 picture. You will only get something similar to the Pan. mode. At least that is how it works on my Xelos. I would say that you are pretty much stuck with a constant 16:9 mode. I understand that the Philips DVD963SA has a feature to display a 4:3 picture on a 16:9 display in progressive mode, either non-linear stretched like the Pan. mode or pillar box, so this looks like it would solve that problem, but what to do with non-anamorphic widescreen material I don't know.
     
  12. drew

    drew
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    Thanks guys for the input so far.

    And thanks to Groundy for the reminder about the limitation on aspect ratio when a Loewe is in VGA mode. I'd read all the Steve1138 postings a while back but I must have learnt more than I thought in the period since, - because I understand more of what Steve is saying now!

    The Arianet 2255 on the thread that dejongj has provided above can be seen on the Aria site at www.aria.co.uk/home.asp

    If you click through to the product details, there's a section with customer comments/questions on a posting board. Many appear happy with the player, but a significant number of comments indicate that the machine is somewhat unstable. Of course, what do you expect for prog scan under a hundred quid. But what got me going on the Limit 9900 (at under £200) was that someone had opened the tin and found major components inside that matched Arcam DVD players!

    Getting back to the Arianet 2255, is there anyone out there with a Loewe who has tried this player. Even better, has anyone with a Q2500/H chassis tried the Arianet and is happy with it?

    In the meantime, her indoors has gone outdoors and is on her way to collect that Tosh 220E. Can't wait any longer to get some DVD stuff onto my Aconda, and want to do it with a cheap but robust player that's had good reviews.

    However........ with the Aconda giving the best CRT picture available anywhere I wonder how long I'll be happy with the little Tosh.
     
  13. rdt123

    rdt123
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    just as an aside went richer sounds sheffield today they had the limit marked up at 199, i was after the tosh 220e. as they had none in stock he pointed to the limit 9900se and said i'll do you that at 120! i begrudgingly accepted
     
  14. dejongj

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    You have got the sale of the century...That is a very good deal. Want to swap it with mine and give me an additional £80? :clown:
     
  15. drew

    drew
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    More to the point, rdt123, - what do you think of it?

    I'm guessing if you were after the 220 that you cannot take a prog signal in?
     
  16. drew

    drew
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    BTW Sir Whatsit, - I'll have the 8o quid :p :D

    Sold the Jag yet?
     
  17. dejongj

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    Thanks for reminding me Drew...I should update my website. My new car is now comming up to its first anniversary which means I sold my Jaguar.....ahmm last year January :clown: I think I should update my website....

    Cheers,

    JP
     
  18. rdt123

    rdt123
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    well heres what i think.

    Firstly mate your right, i cant take progressive scan. Here's the whole sorry tale.

    1 The limit player had a faulty rgb output leading to a green screen. This was confirmed by RS who tested it in store. I refused a replacement unit because:

    i) Put off by first faulty one
    ii) remote buttons very hit and miss
    iii) no standby button on remote
    iv) easy to think disc tray is polystyrene
    v) chasis build seems 'cheap'

    Fantastic picture, would have been better with rgb!!

    Overall decided on slightly less features but better build and went for a 656, now this is nice and i'm satisfied. When the new sub comes tomorrow the total system upgrade is complete, thank god. Missus still cant believe it only came to £22, sssshhhhh!
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    There seems to be a bit of confusion here....

    First off if you are seeing Green using the HD15 (vga) socket then it is not faulty but is outputting component as YPrPb (as long as the VGA input is configured properly on your device to accept RGB that is). If they say this socket is supposed to output RGBHV then it isn;t configured properly or it's bust but there is no rason to assume it should be RGBHV.

    I think folk reading this thread might get confused by constant useage of VGA terminology. VGA is just a term that seems to be used all the time for what is, in fact, an HD15 socket. HD15 sockets can be used to send all types of signals and formats through them. I'd expect that any DVD player with such a socket could be configured to output RGBHV but the signal is unlikely to be VGA (640 X 480) more likely it'd be 720 X 480 @60Hz or 720 X 576@ 50Hz.

    The Loewe Q2500 chassis is supposed to accept both these progressive signals while the Q2400 that was previous would only accept 480P.

    Hope this is a little help.

    Gordon
     
  20. drew

    drew
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    Gordon

    Re your post here, I've just read (again!) the stuff on the Steve1138 posts about prog into the Q2500/H chassis, with the VGA board installed.

    Now I've got a headache.

    And I'm not at all clear about where this has all ended up, ie is it worth feeding prog into this TV, if the screen layout is going to be a pain?

    A lift from one of your answers in Steve's thread:-

    If you have a q2500 chassis and get a progressive scan dvd player that can be modded to output PAL prog...and you get a Key Digital YPrPb to RGBHV transcoder....you can have your cake and eat it....

    But that was early on, I think, in the discussion and some of the other questions on these threads never got answered, so it's difficult to work out where the best answer/solution lies.

    Any opinions?
     
  21. Badger

    Badger
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    Drew

    If the VGA card is already fitted and you have a PC with a DVD drive, then connect it up and play a disc - this should tell you if the improvement is worth it.

    If you then get the 963a then it is possible the only problem you will have aspect wise is that non anamorphic stuff will have black borders on all sides (presuming the aspect control works)

    From this you should be able to decide if it's work the cash to go Prog Scan

    The 963a also has the option to display PAL discs at 480p, given the image will be scaled and the frame rate will need to be corrected - is this a PS solution for us Q2400 users

    BTW i'm getting the VGA card fitted soon so can provide more info then. We could also attempt to petition Loewe for a s/ware upgrade to deal with the aspect shortcomings - when I asked they have no plans for a PS component card

    Phil
     
  22. drew

    drew
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    Thanks Badger

    .........although I don't have a 963a, - are you confusing me with someone else?

    I've got a Tosh220, which is OK though it doesn't make me go -wow- if you know what I mean. However for £120 multireg I can't complain. The guys at Loewe say that a downside (?) of the Aconda is that it shows up any deficiency of low to med input and I need an equivalent grade DVD player. :rolleyes:

    Re my PC, its at the other end of the house and wired up to everything except my shaver, so I've resisted up to now thinking I'd have a prog scan under the telly before much longer. Also, I reckoned the picture Q on the TV would depend on the DVD player and driver in the PC. So is this going to give me a useful benchmark? What do you think?

    BTW after the engineer had fitted the VGA card, he left a setup utilities CD that had come in the box. I assumed that's just for PC functionality, - not for a DVD player under the telly. Maybe that's another reason to move the PC downstairs for a playabout. Have you got a date for your VGA card fitting?

    Drew
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Here is the deal.

    The Q2500 should accept 576P or 480P signals as long as they are RGBHV, not YPrPb. It is unlikely that any DVD players output such a signal unless they are from the Far East in origin (and are not paying DVD licensiing fee's) or are hacked through software or handsets (older Arcam FMJ/DV). If you have a progresive DVD player and want to try this then you need to transcode RGB to YPrPb colourspace. Key Digital and AudioAuthority do such devices (affordably)

    The Q2400 chassis will accept only 480P.

    Both will accept 800 X 600 signal but will convert this to an interlaced signal and should therefore be avoided.

    There is only one sweetspot for a crt device like this. If 480P doesn't show scan lines then chances are that 576P will look soft as they will be overlapping. As has been mentioned there is no aspect ratio control so only anamorphic discs are going to be in correct shape. Chance is also that Loewe will not have paid much attention to the geometry on this memory bank so that may need attention too.

    The ideal is to use a scaler or HTPC to drive the thing at best res all the time and to do aspect ratio control.

    Gordon
     
  24. Badger

    Badger
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    Nope I know you don't have a 963a, apologies for not being clearer about that - the Philips is the only UK player I am aware of that has any aspect control - which is one of the 2 stumbling blocks for getting prog scan into the Aconda (the other being the VGA/component issue)

    You're right that the final picture quality would depend on the DVD player chosen and the setup/hardware of your PC, but at the very least it would give you some indication as to how much better a PS signal would look - if you can't tell the difference, or the difference is minimal then just spend the transcoder cash on a better interlaced player.

    Well that should have some display drivers for your PC on so that it can detect the set and set the resolution correctly Is there a service manual on it by any chance ?

    Not yet - am going to try to arrange it this w/end, how much was yours (PM me if you prefer) if you don't mind me asking ?

    Phil
     
  25. groundy

    groundy
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    Gordon, interesting what you say about VGA being able to carry a YPrPb Component signal. I understand that VGA is just a connection method - in the same why that Scart can carry various signal types - but I had always assumned that VGA equipped devices where geared towards ouputting/accepting RGB HV?

    Computer monitors work on the system, as does the Loewe VGA input but what about Plasma's & Projectors? Do they accept RGB HV via VGA or YPrPb component (or both)?

    The Loewe's are supposed to sync at 800x600 but I can't get my Q2500 to do this - certainly not at 60hz (interlaced) refresh rate.

    Lastly do you have a specsheet on the Key Digital transcoders and have you taken delivery of them yet?

    Thanks :).
     
  26. Badger

    Badger
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    I seem to recall reading that the interlacing is done internally by the set, so it expects a progressive 800x600 signal to be input

    Phil
     
  27. Badger

    Badger
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    Is this true for PC monitors too as they can usually sync to a wide range of resolutions ?

    Phil
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Groundy: If you stop calling the socket a VGA socket and instead call it an HD15 socket then this will stop confusing folk;) You are right that most equipment with such sockets is designed for RGB and control of some sort. However there are quite a lot of fixed pixel projectors that use this socket to receive either that or YPrPb through a change of configuration (takes up less space and costs less to manufacture)

    Badger: All CRT displays are limted by how small a dot they can draw across the tube face (other things as well but this is an easy one to see). The smaller the dot the more pixels can be drawn in a sweep. This is usually fixed in design. So you can see that even although the thing can accept many resolutions only one will be making maximum use of the available phosphor and the others will be drawing too few or too many lines.

    Gordon
     
  29. groundy

    groundy
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    Duly noted ;).
     
  30. drew

    drew
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    Badger

    Re How much.

    Cost £80 fitted. Was told by my retailer that it should have been more but low price to resolve a minor problem. The independent field engineer that called said he had fitted one recently for significantly more.

    I understand (but not sure) that the cost of the card is about £45, - if that helps you. So add on the cost of a standard call out and you have the right territory.

    I've never had to pay for an AV call out, but the washing machine costs £80 for a knock on the door and 20 minutes of time. Never cost anything like that in Essex.................and we had a bigger house..........where's the wife - it was her idea to move......

    Let me know how you get on?
     

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