Lighting design and LED query.

norfbech

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Hi all,

Was hoping for a bit of advice tips on a relatively straightforward lighting design/plan I have for my ground floor (upstairs will be a seperate project).
I've had a good ol browse through these forums and picked up some fantastic tips and, of course, inspiration.
I have a friend who's a pro sparky, and he's helped devise most of this plan, but I have veered off slightly as I was to be adding a bit of LED strip/tape mood lighting.

Due to budget constraints, I'm probably have to look at setting up something I can upgrade in the future, although it's important I plan the wiring for this...once the plastering and ceilings go up, I don't ever want to see them down again!

I'll quickly describe my plan, then drop a couple of sketches (forgive the quality...didn't have time to do them properly on t'computer).

Ok - three rooms - I'm wiring each of them to a grid switch on a seperate circuit which will include a CAT5/6 cable (this is what the aforementioned friend of mine is doing). When the time (and next set of funds released!) I'll look at something like Lutron or Rako (obviously having the Cat cable already fed, I'd have to consider something which doesn't have it's own proprietary cabling - my mate has Cat in his, so I'll go with that) - and link that back to the switch at my node point:

* Hall - Spotlights, LED stairlights, dropped ceiling perimeter LED strip/tape and outdoor lights. 4 way grid switch.

halllights.jpg


* Living room - set of recessed spots, two wall lights, tape/strip around the back of the TV, tape/strip to the left and right of the TV above cabinets. I may also add a couple of table lamps and fit them with 5v sockets and then back to a wall switch...not sure yet.
I may as well connect the tape/strip 'as one' (bridge them?) so the TV backlight and above cabinet are connected to one switch.
The spots may either be split (5 and two - with the two being in the bay window area) or just a set of 7.
4-6 way grid switch.

livingroom.jpg


* Dining room - recessed spots (five probably), 3x pendents set below a small section of dropped ceiling, tape/strip in and around the drop ceiling, tape/strip around the TV and 2 x wall lights. Outdoor lights pair.

diningroomlighting.jpg


Most of this is fairly straightforward for me (given that it's pretty much the same system as my friend has installed) but I'm aware there are a few considerations when it comes to the tape/strip LEDs. I've only used them in the past when plugged direct into the mains (the pre plugged variety you get from ikea). Colour changing is not essential, so may not require the RGB drivers, at least not in all rooms, but obviously all being Low Volt I'll need the appropriate transformers. Also, these are only for mood lighting/background but it's possible for the drop ceiling lights I may have to 'double up' to get anything approaching a decent glow. If it came to colour changing, then I'd be more than happy with a small selection of colours (and a manual switch would suffice) rather than the two million odd colours some of these set ups provide! I do rather like the idea of a 'bit of blue' on occasion...with deep winter approaching, a bit of summertime Miami would do wonders for the pysche! :)

btw - this is the 'drop ceiling section' I'm planning to build - the glow can be as subtle as this:

Droppedceiling1.png


So, if anyone could add anything/help I'd be most grateful. Probably looking at 5-10 metres of the 5050 per room (bearing in mind if I have to double up in places?) and budget is so very tight - hence the colour variety may have to wait for an upgrade (I presume once you're 1.5mm circuit is in place, then in the future it would be a case of just fitting a new system onto this...I'm hoping!).

Many thanks.
 
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1). For mood lighting you will not need to double up - believe me. You are getting confused with another thread discussing primary lighting using LED strips. Mood lighting is secondary lighting. Your primary lighting is the spots.

2). RGB LED controller prices are small compared with the price of LED strips and, with the correct choice, will give you the colour and intensity you actually want, not the colour that the manufacturer thinks you want.

3). For all 3 zones, you just need to supply a mains feed from either a 240v lighting circuit or 240v ring mains circuit to power the switched mode power supply. We don't use transformers anymore.
 
1). For mood lighting you will not need to double up - believe me. You are getting confused with another thread discussing primary lighting using LED strips. Mood lighting is secondary lighting. Your primary lighting is the spots.

Haha - I did see that thread (amongst the other 2000 odd posts I read through!). Yes, just after a 'warm halo glow' really. If you think I'll be good to go with just the one strip (5050?) then I'm more than happy. Keeps costs down too.

2). RGB LED controller prices are small compared with the price of LED strips and, with the correct choice, will give you the colour and intensity you actually want, not the colour that the manufacturer thinks you want.

Like that sound of that too. Are you able to 'prescribe' anything which may be suitable for me? Tbh - the one colour (warm white approximation) would suffice, but if I can just add a few colours and the RGB controllers are not that much cost wise, then I'm happy to look into that...can't beat a bit of blue halo'ing - I'm sure there was a psychological report which 'stated' blue was by far the most positive colour (you would've assumed yellow/reds were) :)

I've just spotted your site btw - probably worth dropping the info on this thread for future advice, but perhaps I could PM with further details? Of course, if the price fits in with my budget it would good to buy direct from you! I've heard nothing but good things about your service.

3). For all 3 zones, you just need to supply a mains feed from either a 240v lighting circuit or 240v ring mains circuit to power the switched mode power supply. We don't use transformers anymore.

Yes - I probably didn't make it clear in my initial post. In each room (zone) I'm having a grid switch (between 4 - 6 depending) - each switch will control the separate lights (spots, wall lights and, I was hoping, the LED strips).

So, transformers are out? A case of connecting the RGB controller...then the driver (you'll see my knowledge falls over at this stage) which will connect to the 1.5mm lighting circuit (each zone on it's own breaker at the CU)? I guess you would hide the driver/RGB controller somewhere/anywhere in the room? Choice of either remote control or manual colour switch?

I'm dropping a Cat cable in each grid switch and looping onto the next. Eventually they'll loop to the upstairs lighting circuit then onto the network switch. Which controller I choose I'll worry about at the time...but I'd need one without proprietary cabling - I think some Lutron panels work with Cat5/6?

Well, you've put me at ease quite a bit there supraTTman. The trouble with this great forum is it's full of inspiration, but then you start your own project and realise the sheer amount of skills you have to tap into (I'm trying to do as much as I can...not having done anything like this, certainly at this level, before).

Huge thanks.
 
Just to clarify the topology:

RGB strips are driven by (connected to) an LED controller using 4 wires - we don't use the term 'driver'.

RGB amplifiers are used to supply large lengths of strip.

The LED controller requires 12V DC, and for this we use a high efficiency (~90%) switched mode power supply to convert 240V AC to 12V DC. This switched mode power supply can be fed from your grid switch.

Your idea of warm white & blue may not be the same as the manufacturers idea of these colours - so you need an LED controller that offers RGB up/down functionality so that you can customise and store your favourite colours/brightness levels. The 2M colour controller will deliver pretty much any colour you can think of (apart from brown - not sure this is a big problem though!!)

There are many Forum members that can advise you on Lutron kit. I am not one of them!!
 
Just to clarify the topology:

RGB strips are driven by (connected to) an LED controller using 4 wires - we don't use the term 'driver'.

RGB amplifiers are used to supply large lengths of strip.

The LED controller requires 12V DC, and for this we use a high efficiency (~90%) switched mode power supply to convert 240V AC to 12V DC. This switched mode power supply can be fed from your grid switch.

Your idea of warm white & blue may not be the same as the manufacturers idea of these colours - so you need an LED controller that offers RGB up/down functionality so that you can customise and store your favourite colours/brightness levels. The 2M colour controller will deliver pretty much any colour you can think of (apart from brown - not sure this is a big problem though!!)

There are many Forum members that can advise you on Lutron kit. I am not one of them!!

Ok - think it's sinking in :)
I've read a fair bit and I've read about transformers...drivers...etc so I'm happy that's been clarified.

So - I'll need an LED controller - if I decide to go with colour changing (to find the 'perfect' hue), I'd then need said controller with up/down functionality. Depending on the lengths of run, I may need an amplifier also, which would be determined by a measurements. Does that sound about right? Are all these parts available from yourself? Might drop you an PM/mail if that's ok. If I can tick this off in my brain I'll probably get a bit more sleep at night :)

Just to clarify, an entry level system that may have the colour changing functionality at approx (I'd have to measure up) 5-6 metres per zone/room.
Thanks for confirming all this just goes back to the grid/light circuit.

As for Lutron - I'll leave all that till next year and see what options I have then. I'm sure there's more than enough advice on here :)

Many thanks.
 
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Hi guys,
re 'You are getting confused with another thread discussing primary lighting using LED strips'
my ears were burning LOL

Just to say TT's advice is all good but I reiterate what I wrote in the thread you referred to,
try to mock up your ideas to see what it looks like when using LED lighting.
I'd guess from what we see in the photo, the red glow above the 'drop ceiling section' was not
quite what they were looking for.
I presume they wanted to gently light the whole ceiling.
The heavy shadowing from the three pendants isn't helping.
It probably looks better with them switched off but IMHO it's a classic case of
using LED strips and not getting the results you expect.

Anyway, if you need any advice on Lutron when the time comes I can help if you need it.

Good luck with it and kind regards

Steve
 
Ok - think it's sinking in :)
I've read a fair bit and I've read about transformers...drivers...etc so I'm happy that's been clarified.

So - I'll need an LED controller - if I decide to go with colour changing (to find the 'perfect' hue), I'd then need said controller with up/down functionality. Depending on the lengths of run, I may need an amplifier also, which would be determined by a measurements. Does that sound about right? Are all these parts available from yourself? Might drop you an PM/mail if that's ok. If I can tick this off in my brain I'll probably get a bit more sleep at night :)

Just to clarify, an entry level system that may have the colour changing functionality at approx (I'd have to measure up) 5-6 metres per zone/room.
Thanks for confirming all this just goes back to the grid/light circuit.

As for Lutron - I'll leave all that till next year and see what options I have then. I'm sure there's more than enough advice on here :)

Many thanks.
For 10m of 30/m or even 60/m strip, you won't need an RGB amp unless the rating of the LED controller you opt for is rated below 4A per channel (R,G&B).

For tips on how to maximise ceiling-fill see post # 193 of this thread
 
Hi guys,
re 'You are getting confused with another thread discussing primary lighting using LED strips'
my ears were burning LOL

Just to say TT's advice is all good but I reiterate what I wrote in the thread you referred to,
try to mock up your ideas to see what it looks like when using LED lighting.
I'd guess from what we see in the photo, the red glow above the 'drop ceiling section' was not
quite what they were looking for.
I presume they wanted to gently light the whole ceiling.
The heavy shadowing from the three pendants isn't helping.
It probably looks better with them switched off but IMHO it's a classic case of
using LED strips and not getting the results you expect.

Anyway, if you need any advice on Lutron when the time comes I can help if you need it.

Good luck with it and kind regards

Steve

I see what you mean by the shadowing - you've obviously got a good eye for that :)

The glow create a bit of intrigue for me...a raging, fiery pocket of suspense above a seemingly humdrum dining table. Perhaps later in the evening, the cheese slice was used for a gruesome 'accident' with a particularly snide and never loved cat?!

I suspect then, my version will look similar. However, there's the option of having the pendents off and the LED glow on and vice versa. Maybe if I edged my LEDs a little closer to the edge of the frame and the fact my pendents won't be as bright as those might give me a better look?
I'll play with it at the time, but I've got a bit of a thing for that (the blinking joinery is going to be a challenge, but I've had a fair bit of advice on that).

Any other tips on what I'm posting are always welcome.

I've used recessed spots for years and personally love the look (some don't). However I've never used wall lamps (never saw the point in the past) but of late, I've seen some decent wall lights out there.
Still have concerns over getting the spots right when I switch to LED GU10's - need to find just the right 'warm white' version. They've evolved quite a bit and the saving, cost wise, are to be embraced I think.

As for Lutron - definitely. With my OCD, the opportunity to have uniform lighting control on tap (and even remotely) is very tantalising.

Many thanks.
 
For 10m of 30/m or even 60/m strip, you won't need an RGB amp unless the rating of the LED controller you opt for is rated below 4A per channel (R,G&B).

For tips on how to maximise ceiling-fill see post # 193 of this thread

Brilliant. It's probably going to be no more than 10 metres max in the 'busiest' room. Therefore, up to 10 metres per room plus 3 controllers...and I'm not sure if you've answered this, but, to confirm, if one of the rooms (say the hall) only requires one colour do I just require the tape and the 'switched PSU'? For the others the tape, PSU and controller?

Many thanks.
 
Brilliant. It's probably going to be no more than 10 metres max in the 'busiest' room. Therefore, up to 10 metres per room plus 3 controllers...and I'm not sure if you've answered this, but, to confirm, if one of the rooms (say the hall) only requires one colour do I just require the tape and the 'switched PSU'? For the others the tape, PSU and controller?

Many thanks.
Spot on!
 
I'm sure TT will point you in the right direction but I personally have not seen a LED GU10 that I like and
you can probably imagine a lot I don't.
Two recent jobs for my customers come to mind.

1) Massive kitchen family room.
Their electrician suggested upgrading to LED ceiling lights from 50w halogens.
His sales pitch was the normal energy saving argument and he claimed LEDs are brighter.

Client bit the bullet and was horrified to come home to what amounted to night club dance floor in his kitchen/living space.
There were visible light plumes reflecting off the floor tiles and a massive reduction of overall light level.
His wife hated the colour although they were warm white but he amusingly commented how he liked the way his breakfast bowl illuminated in the morning with a spot that landed just where he sits!
He didn't want to call the electrician back so we retrofitted new halogens.
The old ones (over 70 of them) had unfortunately vanished.

2) Coffee bar/cafe
Same script, the cafe owner didn't much care about the colour and light spots just the lack of light.

re. Still have concerns over getting the spots right when I switch to LED GU10's
Well the fact that you call them spots is a little misleading but I presume you want a consistent light fill.
Halogens unless you spec them have a very wide beam.
Every LED GU10 lamp I have seen, although described otherwise are indeed spots and lend themselves to that purpose.

TT is in the business and more up to speed than me so it will be interesting to see if he knows of a like for like LED replacement for a GU10 halogen lamp which addresses the issues I highlight.

All food for thought I hope.
 
I'm sure TT will point you in the right direction but I personally have not seen a LED GU10 that I like and
you can probably imagine a lot I don't.
Two recent jobs for my customers come to mind.

1) Massive kitchen family room.
Their electrician suggested upgrading to LED ceiling lights from 50w halogens.
His sales pitch was the normal energy saving argument and he claimed LEDs are brighter.

Client bit the bullet and was horrified to come home to what amounted to night club dance floor in his kitchen/living space.
There were visible light plumes reflecting off the floor tiles and a massive reduction of overall light level.
His wife hated the colour although they were warm white but he amusingly commented how he liked the way his breakfast bowl illuminated in the morning with a spot that landed just where he sits!
He didn't want to call the electrician back so we retrofitted new halogens.
The old ones (over 70 of them) had unfortunately vanished.

2) Coffee bar/cafe
Same script, the cafe owner didn't much care about the colour and light spots just the lack of light.

re. Still have concerns over getting the spots right when I switch to LED GU10's
Well the fact that you call them spots is a little misleading but I presume you want a consistent light fill.
Halogens unless you spec them have a very wide beam.
Every LED GU10 lamp I have seen, although described otherwise are indeed spots and lend themselves to that purpose.

TT is in the business and more up to speed than me so it will be interesting to see if he knows of a like for like LED replacement for a GU10 halogen lamp which addresses the issues I highlight.

All food for thought I hope.

I like the bowl story. Well...as for constant light fill...no, not really. It's probably a personal thing, but I've love the lighting from halogen GU10 recessed spots. I tend to have them on dim most of the time and I'm quite averse to bright, over lit rooms anyway (like the furry creatures in Gremlins if you will). I really wouldn't have any other type of set up now. I get a little uneasy in rooms that are brightly lit from central pendents (ok, I'm having pendents fitted, but they're are to be hung low over a dining table and more of a low lit feature when not in full use).

I have some LED GU10's on the outside of my house. I'm quite impressed - they're perfect for where they are (and pull very little energy). However, I can't be certain (and it's very difficult to prove) that used indoors to replicate halogens they'll be the same. We had some in a holiday place in Cornwall (attached to those central, 3 way lights...which aren't great in themselves) and I couldn't wait to turn them off... a real, stark white light akin to flori tubes (I practically shudder over those!).

So, the reverse of the coffee shop really...it's the colour and feel/ambience that I'd be concerned about. I may have asked on another forum about the lack of parts of the light spectrum in the CFL's that did the rounds a while back - thought a similar thing might be going on with the LEDs. In saying that, they're most likely improving all the time...

Cheers.
 
Beam angle is a massive problem with LED GU10/MR16's - especially the high power types that use 3 off 2-4W LED's as the LED devices are recessed well down inside the housing so the beam becomes narrowed to around 45 deg.
I have bought lots of 21/60 LED MR16's for the house and boat and because the devices are not recessed (proud if anything) these sport a decent 120 deg beam angle but they are not the most elegant of designs. I have used a piece of frosted glass to mask the LED's without degrading intensity or beam angle significantly.

Colour temperature is also a big problem as Steve points out. Always buy from a supplier that will accept returns if you get it wrong - and you will!!
 
Beam angle is a massive problem with LED GU10/MR16's - especially the high power types that use 3 off 2-4W LED's as the LED devices are recessed well down inside the housing so the beam becomes narrowed to around 45 deg.
I have bought lots of 21/60 LED MR16's for the house and boat and because the devices are not recessed (proud if anything) these sport a decent 120 deg beam angle but they are not the most elegant of designs. I have used a piece of frosted glass to mask the LED's without degrading intensity or beam angle significantly.

Colour temperature is also a big problem as Steve points out. Always buy from a supplier that will accept returns if you get it wrong - and you will!!

I've recently purchased a rack of recessed spots and they come supplied with halogen bulbs. As these last a fair while, I'll just use those (dimmed...as per my Mogwai behaviour :) ) until a later date.

2196853_f520.jpg


Cheers.
 
Beam angle is a massive problem with LED GU10/MR16's - especially the high power types that use 3 off 2-4W LED's as the LED devices are recessed well down inside the housing so the beam becomes narrowed to around 45 deg.
I have bought lots of 21/60 LED MR16's for the house and boat and because the devices are not recessed (proud if anything) these sport a decent 120 deg beam angle but they are not the most elegant of designs. I have used a piece of frosted glass to mask the LED's without degrading intensity or beam angle significantly.

Colour temperature is also a big problem as Steve points out. Always buy from a supplier that will accept returns if you get it wrong - and you will!!

I've heard better things about the SMD chip type ones (although they're ugly as hell!). Haven't seen those 'in play' either so hard to comment. Are these the one's you are referring to with the frosted glass mask?

101213114138.jpg
 
No. The one's I bought (from Lustrumlight - I've plugged these guys so many times I should be on commission!) use leaded LED's rather than surface mount devices (SMD's) - see photo - but mine were not quite as proud. I used the frosted glass diffuser (48mm dia, 1mm thick) from the old boat capsule light fittings.
 

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No. The one's I bought (from Lustrumlight - I've plugged these guys so many times I should be on commission!) use leaded LED's rather than surface mount devices (SMD's) - see photo - but mine were not quite as proud. I used the frosted glass diffuser (48mm dia, 1mm thick) from the old boat capsule light fittings.

Ahh. The one's I have outside are these Osram lamps:

led-gu10-4.5w-parathom_1.jpg


It's a bit wild west in terms of variety, quality, brightness. I have two others (Chinese branded) I picked up from my local leccy supplier - there supposedly the same temperature as my Osram and the same brightness (3.5w) but they're almost completely different. I'll take a peek at the company you mentioned. It's a shame you can't see them in a 'domestic' setting before you purchase...afterall, these aren't cheap. I'll take my time and stick with the supplied halogens in my spots before proceding. At the very least I could stick them in a room (bathroom for example) as a home test perhaps.

Thanks for the info supraTTman. I'll drop you a PM sometime today re my other lighting requirements above.

Thanks.
 
Hi all,

Was hoping for a bit of advice tips on a relatively straightforward lighting design/plan I have for my ground floor (upstairs will be a seperate project).
I've had a good ol browse through these forums and picked up some fantastic tips and, of course, inspiration.
I have a friend who's a pro sparky, and he's helped devise most of this plan, but I have veered off slightly as I was to be adding a bit of nice led lights strip/tape mood lighting.

Due to budget constraints, I'm probably have to look at setting up something I can upgrade in the future, although it's important I plan the wiring for this...once the plastering and ceilings go up, I don't ever want to see them down again!

I'll quickly describe my plan, then drop a couple of sketches (forgive the quality...didn't have time to do them properly on t'computer).

Ok - three rooms - I'm wiring each of them to a grid switch on a seperate circuit which will include a CAT5/6 cable (this is what the aforementioned friend of mine is doing). When the time (and next set of funds released!) I'll look at something like Lutron or Rako (obviously having the Cat cable already fed, I'd have to consider something which doesn't have it's own proprietary cabling - my mate has Cat in his, so I'll go with that) - and link that back to the switch at my node point:


* Hall - Spotlights, LED stairlights, dropped ceiling perimeter LED strip/tape and outdoor lights. 4 way grid switch.

image


* Living room - set of recessed spots, two wall lights, tape/strip around the back of the TV, tape/strip to the left and right of the TV above cabinets. I may also add a couple of table lamps and fit them with 5v sockets and then back to a wall switch...not sure yet.
I may as well connect the tape/strip 'as one' (bridge them?) so the TV backlight and above cabinet are connected to one switch.
The spots may either be split (5 and two - with the two being in the bay window area) or just a set of 7.
4-6 way grid switch.

image


* Dining room - recessed spots (five probably), 3x pendents set below a small section of dropped ceiling, tape/strip in and around the drop ceiling, tape/strip around the TV and 2 x wall lights. Outdoor lights pair.

image


Most of this is fairly straightforward for me (given that it's pretty much the same system as my friend has installed) but I'm aware there are a few considerations when it comes to the tape/strip LEDs. I've only used them in the past when plugged direct into the mains (the pre plugged variety you get from ikea). Colour changing is not essential, so may not require the RGB drivers, at least not in all rooms, but obviously all being Low Volt I'll need the appropriate transformers. Also, these are only for mood lighting/background but it's possible for the drop ceiling lights I may have to 'double up' to get anything approaching a decent glow. If it came to colour changing, then I'd be more than happy with a small selection of colours (and a manual switch would suffice) rather than the two million odd colours some of these set ups provide! I do rather like the idea of a 'bit of blue' on occasion...with deep winter approaching, a bit of summertime Miami would do wonders for the pysche! :)

btw - this is the 'drop ceiling section' I'm planning to build - the glow can be as subtle as this:

image


So, if anyone could add anything/help I'd be most grateful. Probably looking at 5-10 metres of the 5050 per room (bearing in mind if I have to double up in places?) and budget is so very tight - hence the colour variety may have to wait for an upgrade (I presume once you're 1.5mm circuit is in place, then in the future it would be a case of just fitting a new system onto this...I'm hoping!).

Many thanks.

YOur lighting design looks nice. I am thinking of using it
 
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