1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Light Fusion (LF) 1st UK Spray Day

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by GaryM999, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    If you are new to this concept then brush up here…

    Eventually we managed to get 4 of us to contribute to nearly 10 litres of MMSE and set about arranging a spray day. Unfortunately one of us could not make it leaving myself, mavice and mikeaitch to the fun.

    What follows is the day’s event, lessons, mistakes etc. The views expressed here are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of mavice and mikeaitch, I’m sure they will chip in as I go.

    First off make sure you are prepared, one way and another we wasted a lot of the day. My mirror, which I had glued with polystyrene coving adhesive (texture a bit like tiling grout) the previous night came unstuck. The adhesive stuck well to the MDF backing board but not the mirror. A trip to B&Q (aka Home Depot) to purchase a different make (texture more like very thick PVA) gave the results (thanks mavice).

    [​IMG]

    mikeaitch did not have time to stick his mirror until the day, He used proper mirror adhesive as supplied by Westwards but this did not dry fast enough and remained with the consistency between Silicone and Vaseline through the day.

    :lesson: Tip One: If spraying several mirrors and you need to move them in and out of the spray area screw a small batten either side of the backing board to act as handles or allow an MDF boarder as I did to aid transport.

    The mirrors supplied by Westwards did not seem to be of that good a quality, with multiple defects, scratches front and back, blemishes and stains in the mirror surface etc. Fortunately these do not show once sprayed but had I of purchased a sheet for use as a mirror I would have been p**sed. My mirror was sourced from an alternative supplier and seemed a better quality with no defects. It was a LOT smaller than the others at 1200x900 (59” 4:3).

    With the protective skin removed the unevenness of the mirror was alarming. Bit like a funfair mirror. Fortunately this does not seem to have any detrimental effect on the final image. But I think if I were to stick another I would cover the whole surface of the backboard spreading the glue out fully with a really fine tiling comb.

    [​IMG]

    :lesson: Tip Two: Peel the protective front covering off really slowly to prevent the build up of static. Then blow the screen off with an air pistol (wish I had thought of this on the day). As the mirror is plastic the static attracts the paint overspray and causes patterning. However this did not seem to cause an issue with the final product. See 1st coat picture later on.

    Thanks to mikeaitch’s brother we had the use of a professional spray shop with extraction, and a huge compressor, that meant that we had no worries over pressure drops or waiting for air to build up.

    We decanted 5L of MMSE and mixed the paint with a drill, whoops it’s had leap out of the bucket and is now all over the floor.

    :lesson: Tip Three: Take it easy with mixer. :D

    We decided to purchase a new spray gun from Machine Mart. This was only available with a 1.4 or a 1.8mm spay nozzle, we went for the 1.4 for a thinner coat. The controls are identical to the guns mentioned by mississippiman and we set the gun up accordingly.

    As our mix of MMSE was already diluted with 24oz of water we decided not to thin the paint any further, although my gut told me it should have been thinner. Test sprays on MDF and cardboard had us worried that not enough paint was coming out but spaying on a mirror off-cut, it seemed just fine. We fiddled around with the controls again to see what effect they had but they did not seem that effective so we set them back and went with it.

    Desperate to get going we set about spaying. With a little practice we all found it easy and I had never used a professional spay gun before. So on with the first coat…

    We all spayed with 50% overlap from a distance of about 8-10” and if any stripes were seen we went over these again from a greater distance. We stopped once we had a screen like those shown in the pictures.

    [​IMG]
    If you look carefully at this shot you can see a vertical streaking effect, this was from the static build up on the screen.

    After about an hour the paint seemed dry which was faster than mississippiman mentioned. I did not think it would key, but although not scratch resistant, it stuck well.

    Then the second coat. This is where things started to happen but we were running out of time. We seemed to add a lot more paint on this run. First we used the room lights a guide spraying until these were not visible. Then taking photos we looked for the flash in the pics and started to take it easy when it appeared as a small spot. Then we tested with a projector the first thing we noticed was direct light reflection form the lens. Certainly not something we could live with on the finished product. A real close inspection of the painted surface showed that tiny spots of the mirror were not spayed yet?? We continued to spray until this effect had gone. Funny thing was that the point at which this occurred was the same point that the screen took on a uniform matt finish and no longer looked like a spayed mirror. This is where we decided to stop.

    [​IMG]
    mikeaitch’s monster

    [​IMG]
    My baby finished – Well out of time really.

    Even with the paint spillage from mixing it seems that we had hardly used a drop of paint. I estimate a litre for 3 screens, so loads of mix left for future screens :thumbsup:
     
  2. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Had it worked? For various reasons I don’t think mavice and mikeaitch’s results will be in until later. I think mavice will have comparisons to a commercial screen and mikeaitch to a “goo” screen. Before and after pictures please gents.

    My first screen was a cheap pull down jobbie that I later replaced with a sheet of MDF painted with a mix of my own Brilliant White emulsion and pearlescent paint. This seemed to result in crisper and brighter image so I stuck with that until I read about MMud.

    What follows are a series of side by side comparisons with my painted MDF screen and my first LF screen. See what you think. Which screen is the LF, the one on the right or the left?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And the answer….

    The pics on the Right are the LF screen! A result? I feel not. I find the image flatter and less bright with the LF effect softening the image too much. I had certainly expected the image to be brighter and more vivid and I’m some what disappointed. :(

    So have I done some thing wrong :confused: Well I could have just been taken in by the hype or have found the perfect MDF mix but I suspect it is more to do with our spaying.

    I feel that we did not water down the mix enough and as a result it did not cover as evenly or as thin as it should have. The surface is very rough to the touch almost as though the paint is in the form of little balls stuck to the mirror. Had the paint been thinner (to suit the smaller nozzle) I feel that the controls on the gun would have had more effect and that as the paint hit the mirror it would have splat, spreading out more evenly. This might also be why the paint dried faster than MMan reckoned and why we used so little paint.

    [​IMG]
    This close-up shows the first coat. You can clearly see how blobby it is.

    I’m very temped to have another go but for now I’m waiting to see what the other two think. The other thing is that we now have a reference point to work from and a understanding of the process.

    I’m sure MMan will reveal the errors of our ways… :lease:

    PDF of this post to this point attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Ok,

    A rough texture does indeed indicate that the paint was too thick. The coarse texture will diffract light.* The consistency should be that of very thin paint. When a mixer is withdrawn from the bucket, the paint should "pour" off the mixer's vanes, and fairly quickly leave them "open". The resulting "texture" of any coat, 1st to last, should be smoooooooooth, almost slick to the touch.

    A 1.4 MM nozzle should do fine. A 1.8MM nozzle can be used, but you have to torque down the gun's "Fluid flow" and "Air Pressure" adjustments to avoid dumping to much paint at once, resulting in splatters or worse, runs.

    A "Too Quick" drying time most definitely means the mix was too thick, not going on "wet enough" and / or was drying in the air on the way to the mirror.

    You all can "dry Sand" the surface to a smooth finish using a large "Fine Grit" sanding sponge and wide, sweeping "Very Light" strokes. Do this only until you feel the surface becoming smooth, which only takes a very few strokes in any specific area.

    In no way should you ever be able to see a light reflection of any type through the paint. If you can, the top coat is too thin, and the resulting return of the reflective light won't help, it will hurt inasmuch as it will overdrive the surface image and cause "blurring". There is in fact enough image shift that if the returning image is plainly enough see underlying the "surface image, from very close at all, the edges of subject matter can be viewed as "blurry". text would be viewed as "blurry".

    Remember, we/you are not trying to see any vestige of the reflected image excepting the light than can be collected and reused, and the contrast enhancement it affords.

    also remember that this MMud-SE variation is NOT a Bright White screen paint like the original, unadulterated MMud. Comparisons to b a Bright white surface are essentially a "Apples to oranges' sort of thing. If your PJ has a CR value of over 2000:1, but Lumens under 1000, then a straight MMud is best.

    BTW, I posted earlier that I did NOT in fact add any water to the mix prior to shipping to avoid the additional weight. (Ya musta missed that!) If none was added upon receipt or before it was used, then there is the "Thickness" problem you encountered. Your squirtin' Pure MMud! If it was added, then simply add more water until you get the described consistancy.

    You'll know when you've got it, for the paint will flow out of the gun easily, and apply with enough speed and thickness you won't want to tarry too long in one spot. Not even slow down across the mirror, let alone hesitate and/or stop. This will result in an obviously "shiny" spot where the paint is VERY wet. not a disaster (unless it runs) but that would necessitate a light "scuff sanding" after that coat dries if you can obviously see a difference when looking at it. The most noticable difference would be if that area was smooth as glass, and your technique as left all other areas "textured". That won't occur if you get the consistency right.

    Lastly, be sure not to rush into any steps with these first "Prototypes". Or rush to judgement as of yet. After having done dozens of LFs, I can easily advise repairs or adjustment strategies that are not time consuming, difficult, or expensive. But without those adjustments, your stuck with what you get after a first effort. that might not be acceptable..., for all ya all, or me.

    We'll get you "Fusioned" yet!:clap:
     
  4. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Yep we missed it, I was sure the water was in there, oh well. Does explain loads of things, the drying time, the lack of control over the spray gun and it's settings, blobbyness of the surface, the finished result. etc. See I thought it was something we had done. Should have gone with my gut and added the water anyways.

    The surface is not even close to being smooth, in fact my rollered MDF jobbie has a smoother feel. What I have now feels just like a fine grit sheet of "wet and dry" So time to get sanding then. I assume I'm effectively working it back to a smooth 1st coat stage and the respaying the top coat?

    Being that I have such a small screen I'm all up for starting from scratch if required but with the sanding I assume I have not lost anything?
     
  5. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    52,414
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    Ratings:
    +28,140
    As the paint is only a day old it might be easiest to cover it in damp rags for a couple of days/hours and see if you can peel the whole lot off and start from scratch. But if it doesn't all peel off you might wish you'd sanded.

    In the light fusion thread it was clear the Irish mix had no water, but less clear about yours, at one point the water seemed to be there.
    QUOTE:
    "
    MMud-SE has be made. It's a 3.5 Gal mix (13.2 Liters) w/ Distilled water already added. " QUOTE

    Still, you have plenty more to play with :)

    Keep us up to date.

    Dave
     
  6. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    When I wrote that post, I was actually doing so. But the mix I made to ship was too heavy, and needed a larger container, as well as more aggressive packing. I needed a maximum of 36 lbs with packing, and a quart of water extra was all that was giving me fits! So rather than try to change things, I used the left over mix made up for the Emerald Isle, got a smaller Pail, and the rest is FedEx history.

    I guess I made mention of such in one location, and failed to do so in another?

    I hate that!

    (....being the 'blame' that is!)

    The latex paint will slide of if you buy a gallon of Denatured alchohol, apply it liberally with a sponge, soaking the surface until you can see paint coming away onto the sponge. STOP! Let that steep in the covering for 5 full minutes, up to 10 minutes. The use a Car Windsheid squeege and with one stroke from top to bottom, remove the paint. Clean the squeege, and repeat. Any streaks of paint that get left behind, leave 'em be. They will wipe of with a alchohol soaked sponge applied "to the streak".

    Afterwards, the mirror might look 'dirty" but it's clean enough to start over. Done right, it should have very few streaks and almost no scratches.

    All that, and now I'll say that if you knock down that initial texture evenly, and get the overall smoothness we want, it should be just fine. I'd do that first, (...making sure you stop before any mirror gets touched...) and if it looks like hell, all unevenly done, the endeavor to remove the paint for another go.

    Be advised, your gonna use more paint this time around. With a small screen, probably at least a 1.5 Liters from start to finish.

    I'm sorry.
    I blame myself.
    I can't go on.
    I do not deserve to live like other people. :suicide:
     
  7. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    Don't be so hard on yourself, that is what this is all about isn't it? Before you know it you will have some uk xSpurts :smashin:

    Anyway Kez and I are the lucky one's. Kez has not sprayed yet and is getting the benifit of our cock-up and I only have a small mirror to rectify.

    I'm just wondering how mavice and mikeaitch are going to approch thier better halves and explain the extra work that is needed :eek: :devil:
     
  8. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Send me the women.:devil:

    I'll take 'em to Graceland and let 'em get pre occupied fer a spell.

    I can do that ya know. MississippiMan has "ko-neck-shuns!":smashin:

    I'm old friends with the "Phillips" family (as in Sam Phillips, RIP) I hobknob with his Sons and Jam when I can.

    Why..., I even know where Elvis's hidy hole is.

    Shhhhhhhhhush!:nono: You never heard me say that.:eek: :rolleyes: :cool:
     
  9. mavice

    mavice
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands UK
    Ratings:
    +16
    Ok - My findings too

    Firstly, thanks to Gary for organising and my transport, thanks to Mike (and Sid) for the spray room and thanks to Mississipi man for going to the trouble to blend and ship.

    Results...well photos will be for later as my screen will not be going up for a few weeks so I have only placed in temp location to test.

    with initial viewings I have very similar results to Gary.

    The surface does have a fairly rough texture but not too bad. The PJ bulb is very slightly visible at some positions on the screen which would suggest to me that the MMud is not thick enough too (too much reflection). This would also account for the slight halo effect with onscreen text - as described by MMan in his instructions. unfortunately we ran out of time to test further with PJ and add further coats to get thickness right.

    saying this, the overall image from a viewing distance does seem more detailed, though no brighter than my pull down saphire screen at the mo. Not sure how this can happen at the same time...having both blurring AND more detail ?? maybe a weakness in my existing screen losing detail.

    I also like the even block colours on the LF screen as the material structure is visible on my saphire screen but the LF sheet is very even and looks more 'solid'.

    so.........how to rectify the errors made.
    well, basically I cant talk for the others but I feel I need to add at least 1 further coat of watered MMUD to give a smooth surface and remove the blur, and hopefully trigger the LF effect.

    MMan - you recommend a fine wet n dry sanding first - do you feel this is essential or will a smooth top coat do the job ?


    I must admit that at the moment, I can see little or no LF effects as described by other LF users so I imagine that this must be a step change when the coating is right.

    more work needed. :( .... but plenty of MMUD left :D

    watch this space as I am determined to get it right. :thumbsup:
     
  10. mavice

    mavice
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands UK
    Ratings:
    +16
    carefully :suicide:
     
  11. mikeaitch

    mikeaitch
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,583
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Stoke
    Ratings:
    +55
    Very very carefully!

    First of all, thanks to Gary and Mavice for helping in this little experiment- we made some mistakes, but it was overall good fun to try something new.

    I agree very much with the comments already made- not going with our gut feelings re the thickness was, looking back, not the way to go- but therein lies the lesson.

    I sprayed my screen with lighter coats than the other two, which meant I had a smoother finish, but also meant that i had a thinner one too- the reflection of the pj can be seen in my screen, which obviously wasn't right. In the tutorials, it wasn't quite clear to us whether the flash of a camera, for instance, should be visible when the final coat was on and wet.

    I'm convinced however, that LF works- on a whim, I took home Gary's offcut which we practiced on, and put it up against my existing Goo screen, but get this- put it BACK TO FRONT ie with the white backing to the mirror towards the pj.

    To my surprise, it gave better clarity an stronger whites than the Goo, with the Goo just about shading it on lowest black level. Obviously, there isn't the 3mm gap to the mirror in this case, but I actually prefer it to the Goo in most respects!! Go figure...

    I've decided to try again, as the MMud had a better colo0ur balance and more accuracy to the colours, but the image wasn't as sharp and I found it hard to focus accurately on the LF

    In the following pic, the Goo is above, the LF at the bottom- see if you can spot the reversed mirror strip against the goo half....

    MMan, is there any way to lower the black level, as it was the worse of the three as far as I could see, or is that because we applied it too thickly?

    http://photobucket.com/albums/v105/mikeaitch/?action=view&current=2fdaea31.jpg

    The 2nd pic is the Goo only with the reversed mirror strip:

    http://photobucket.com/albums/v105/mikeaitch/?action=view&current=f6134d67.jpg
     
  12. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Me too.:lease:
     
  13. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    The addition of more Silver Metallic is what would be best. Next to that, the addition of 3- 1/24th oz dropletts of lamp Black will certainly "Grey up" the mix. me? I'd add only two dropletts first, shake or whip stir, and view. when you think you can see the mix going "Grey" you've almost got too much unless your sporting a 1500+ Lumen PJ.
     
  14. mavice

    mavice
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands UK
    Ratings:
    +16
    WOW

    first look at the pics attached
     

    Attached Files:

  15. mavice

    mavice
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands UK
    Ratings:
    +16
    OK...what are you looking at. :confused:

    These images are of the background LF screen which we have established does not have a thick enough coat and has rough surface due to a too thick mix vs a 'stripe' test LF screen with an additional coat of MMUD (watered down) after smoothing the existing surface.

    Image 1 - clearly shows the brighter stripe and clearer text and better contrast...the LF effect ???......have we found it? :clap:

    Image 2 - of the whole menu - you can see that text in the test stripe has better contrast and less blurred and background is brighter. If you look closly you can also see the PJ lens in the background LF screen demonstrating the coating is not thick enough.

    IMage 3 - Test stripe moved to menu icons showing brighter and clearer - no blur

    Image 4 - close up of clear bright icons vs text to right with blur.


    OK - Firstly, the brighter stripe effect has nothing to do with the angle as is the same from all viewing angles - it just looks so in the pics as the strip of test LF panel is placed on top of the main LF screen (12mm thicker ...hence the step in the image). The change in contrast is purely the surface working on the test strip. :smashin:

    Gary and Mike

    the test strip was smoothed by gently dragging a stanley knife blade over the surface - this takes off any rough surface and leaves a silky smooth finish.
    I then crudely(and I mean crudely) sprayed on a 15% watered coating using an earlex electric sprayer.

    The results are obviously greatly improved even though the test strip to look at looks terrible to the eye - uneven, runs, blobs etc. :eek:

    the outcome is pretty encouraging though...I am fairly confident that with a light sanding and a couple of light coatings with a watered mix will give significantly better results. :thumbsup:

    not sure when I will get round to doing my full screen though :( - at least a couple of weeks for me.

    Hope this helps
     
  16. mikeaitch

    mikeaitch
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,583
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Stoke
    Ratings:
    +55
    Great news Mav :smashin:

    I'm thinking of hiring or buying a 2nd hand compressor and doing it at home (in double garage) since I can't easily move my screen due to its width, but the brief experiment with the next coat has confirmed that it's jst a matter of time ......
     
  17. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    All very encouraging. I too will have to hire in a spray gun etc. Looking at the cost of an Earltex may as well spend the extra and get a basic air compressor kit to play with. Accepting all its shortfalls.

    Anyway just been dry sanding my screen smooth with 1000 grit "wet-n-dry". Smooth a baby's bum now. But it took a fair amount of sanding? I thought it would scratch through but it suggests that we ended up with quite a thick spray just not 100% covered.
     
  18. kez

    kez
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    7,659
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +921
    reading all this with interest :eek:

    perhaps we can arrange another spray-day? assuming the others are in a similar position?
     
  19. GaryM999

    GaryM999
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    67
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    mikeaitch,

    What do you think? Would your brother be up for it again? Although I know the logistics of moving your screen might be more difficult.
     
  20. avanzato

    avanzato
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,874
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Ratings:
    +60
    Mavice have you any shots of the LF versus a plain ol' "white paint" screen rather than just comparing it to the incorrectly diluted LF one?
     
  21. mikeaitch

    mikeaitch
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,583
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Stoke
    Ratings:
    +55
    Gary etc-


    I will call bro and sound him out, will let you know
     
  22. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    .......and so?
     
  23. mavice

    mavice
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands UK
    Ratings:
    +16
    Yeh..sorry MMan..we have gone a bit quiet

    I am in Tenerife at the mo so the LF project (or repair to first attempt) is on hold for the mo.

    Purely a time issue at the mo and other more important things to complete. (Like this long island ice tea :D )

    needless to say, when I get round to the respray I will post the results... good or bad - as you say, both are important.

    not sure how GAry or Mike have got on...they may have similar time probs.


    Realistically - I dont see me getting round to have another go at my screen until Mid November.
     
  24. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    OK. That's cool. be sure to check in BEFORE you attempt a repair.

    It would seem that you all have quite a bit of the MMud-SE left over.

    I have a proposition for you. Another Poster on AVS UK, located in Paris France wants some MMud for two screens. I'm thinking............?

    I have a new MMud mix called RS-MaxxMMud. It contains some new ingrediants that you might just be able to source easily on a local basis. I take 1 quart of the Original MMud-SE and to that add almost three additional Quarts o three seperate, and rather inexpensive ingrediants.

    What has been accomlished is a substancial increase in Ambient Light viewing ability, and the first true reported instance of a Contrast Enhancing screen actually "increasing" perceived gain.

    A bonus is that this new mix will do a very similar thing on a Wall or Board! Sans the "Mirror" effect, of coursem which takes the acheived results even further down the road we all want to travel.

    In my Home Show I'm currently involved with, I'm sporting a 122" x 69" x 1/8" LF Mirror Screen (140" diagonal !!) and I'm using a JVC HX2U D-ILA PJ w/only 500 lumens. With the '1200 watts worth' of cieling lights ON, and more often than not, with the door open letting sunlight hit the screen.

    These are terrible conditions, but I'm employing them to plainly show that if under such adverse conditions a PJ/Screen combo can present a perfectly "watchable" image, then under controlled ambient light conditions (Table Lamp, Cieling Cans with "Eyeball" shields on a Dimmer...) performance should be, and is, Top Notch.

    Imagine what a 1000 - 1200 lumen PJ could accomplish? With a far smaller screen, no less.

    here's a couple of Pics of the Screen.

    It's one "Freakin' Huge Mirror!

    [​IMG]

    The next few pics have incredible amounts of Ambient light present. Judge them not on what you might think is supposed to be "excellent" but rather what they are doing under adverse conditions w/only 500 lumens on such acreage.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Of course, "Dark Shots" will always be impressive, but the shots above come from a protoype that doesn't even have the true, completed mix applied, it's only about 2/3rds of the way there.
    If you want to try to source the additional componets and mix them into what you already have, you'll not be soorry you did so.

    One very special thing to consider........; The new mix's consistancy will make spraying gp much easier and a LOT faster, and will help make getting the correct amount of paint applied a almost simple task. It can be applied over a "light Coat" of existing MMud-SE, or you can just as well remove to previous effort by using Denatured Alcohol and a Sponge. Just apply the Alcohol liberally, let it soak for at least 5-7 minutes, wipe the bulk away with a "Rubber" Windshied Squeege, then sponge away the remaining streaks.

    At a 1 to 3 ratio, the remaining MMud will stretch pretty far, so perhaps there will be enough for our French Freind. If you do not want to go down that road, let me know for I must price out shipping to Paris otherwise asap.

    MMan

    BTW, the location shown is a garage with White Walls! No place in the Home was large enough to accomodate that size screen!
     
  25. kez

    kez
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    7,659
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +921
    i'd be interested in applying direct to a wall (still haven't sorted out a mirror :rolleyes: )

    plus, i'm more likely to get it past the wife!! :cool:

    i only have a panasonic pt-ae100, but the room is light-controlled. would direct on the wall be ok, or *should* i get a mirror? (it'd need to be over 8' wide, so would have to be custom made by westward)
     
  26. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Kez.

    Go ahead and try the Wall, but I suggest that if your going to try to abstain from using a Mirror, and garner the resulting savings, let me send you 4 bottles of the new Silver Metallic Acrylic Paint I've discovered. ($16.00 USD total) Combined with some Water based Acrylic Polyurathene Satin, it is making all my previous efforts obsolete.

    You'll just have to get 1 quart pf MMud-SE from Gary, 1 additional quart of any Ultra Pure White Latex, 16 Oz of the Poly, 16 Oz more of Distilled Water, and 32 Oz of the new SM.

    The stuff sprays on like water, so if your going to roll, use only a very low nap roller and do so by pre-rolling the roller several times onto the tray or a seperate paint board.

    Lemme know. If we do this fast enough, and the results are as good as I know they will be, I'm sure the other Guys will want to alter the MMud accordingly.
     
  27. kez

    kez
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    7,659
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +921
    maurice,

    sounds interesting...

    all i'd need to source over here would be some ultra pure white latex, and some water-based acrylic polyurathene satin? (plus distilled water)

    managed to persuade SWMBO to let me paint the screen area, as an 8 foot mirror was a no-go. although originally she wanted me to paint the whole wall! :suicide: :rotfl:

    will rollering straight onto the wall (which is flat / smooth) with the new mix give equal / better results than using a mirror with the original MMud-SE?

    cheers, kez
     
  28. mikeaitch

    mikeaitch
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,583
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Stoke
    Ratings:
    +55
    Back at last!! :hiya:


    I'm going to arrange another sprayday on my own if necessary, but if the others are interested, the exchange of ideas was beneficial to all

    A new mix?? I just gotta try that!

    What's the current sitrep MMan?
     
  29. mattsimis

    mattsimis
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2003
    Messages:
    105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +1

    Sorry to hear bout your troubles guys! As I posted previously, apart from minor streaking (which I correctly with another light coat), mine worked out well.

    However, I put the Goo System Painted MDF screen side by side and had some interesting observations:


    LF Mirror screen
    Better defined image (almost like it was higher resolution)
    Better sense of depth (I have the Pioneer HDTV demo file, looks amazing)
    Better colour reproduction
    Appeared "flatter", even tho the mirror is not glued to the wall!
    Generally more "Plasma" like, as MMan described

    Goo Painted Screen (Grey Goo, painted over a year ago)
    Better Contrast - blacks were noticably blacker



    Its a shame because I really notice contrast almost before colour. It a manner its to be expected, the MMud screen is very white in colour while the Goo system is noticebly grey (to the point colours start to suffer). I largely blame this on my projector (Hitachi PJ TX100) which I would describe as "stupidly bright" at the cost of contrast.

    Im looking to get a CC40 Red Filter (any tips?) for it to maybe put the brightness to use and get my blacks back, but overall my search for contrast continues..



    Matt
     
  30. MississippiMan

    MississippiMan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Not a lot of time here but heres a short recap of my current efforts above.

    Drastically improved Blacks are possible with the altering of the MMud mix to include a new Silver Metallic in much greater concentrations, as well as the addition of Acrylic Polyurethane Satin.

    The new SM is an Art Supply Quality that exhibits a far less darker blending of Lamp Black, hence it's name "Radiant Silver" It's a inexpensive version @ $3.99 USD per 8 Oz.

    I'm sure the Polyurethane is readily available.

    To the existing MMud mix, you would do the following.

    1 Quart MMud as mixed
    1 Quart Ultra Pure White (latex)
    24 to 36 Oz RS-Silver Metallic
    16 Oz Distilled Water
    16 Oz. Polyurethane Satin

    Herin, this mix shall be refered to as;

    RS-MMMaxxMudd :smashin:

    A watery mix this is, so spraying must progress 3 times faster across the surface (distance remains the same) Especially in the case of a first coating, one must DUST the surface and let it dry before applying another coat lest you get horrific runs.

    But a added bonus is that this mix covers a mirror very easily, and when drys feels smooth as glass with a very hard surface. Upon applying, it looks so glossy you will be in a state of disbelief that it will ever lose it's shine, but it most certainly does, to a perfectly "Flat" finish.

    Black levels are greatly increased, as is ambient light viewing. HOW MUCH YOU ASK?

    I was dunned into taking some comparison shots using a standard White Matte surface. Of course I said," Why should I bother? Nobody can post anything comparable anyway." But the hue and cry was deafening so I did so just before taking down that humongeous Mirror shown previously above.

    The Following images were taken in HIGH ambient light!!!

    These first photos are noy intended to show anything except the greatly increase level of Black over a White Matte surface (center) in ambient light

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This next shot shows what happens in normally dark conditions.

    [​IMG]

    A closer look at low resolution, to keep you all a'twitter.

    [​IMG]


    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    And now for the Big News. :lesson:

    The effort toward a DIY solution to the "Black Screen" developements in the industry has been realized through a collaboration between myself and two others.

    :devil:

    The idea of using specific Red-Blue-Green pigments in a special MMud mix was put forth. I calculated a certain formula (ie: guessed at it :rolleyes: ) and BINGO! The results are stupendous! But it is not to be devulged just yet, for this my Friends will be a commercially available mix that works almost as well on a Board or Wall as a mirror, sans the added effect a mirror lends to the equation.

    Anybody who can keep it to themselves (...and agree to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement... :nono: ) can soon avail themselves of the chance to be among the first to try it out. I'll not suffer to have DIY'ers salivate needlessly, nor accuse me of blatent profiteering on their desire to have the best. But this effort is a "Spray Only" application, and the Mix is not cheap by any standard I have advocated before. 3 quarts will cost about $150.00 USD, primarily because of the specially formulated pigments than do not meld into a yucky "Brown" sludge, but instead retain thier individual properties.

    I'll post up a new thread soon, after I can acquire the ingrediants in quantities that allow for it to be mixed at the above stated price point. That post will include pics of the mix in action, compared to what you have seen above. Those examples are the only thing that offers a valid comparison anyway.
    :clap:

    I'm excited, and all ya all should be as well.
     

Share This Page

Loading...