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Lies, damn lies, and statistics

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Roland @ B4, Jul 25, 2005.

  1. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Please don't take the above heading as an indication that I think anyone here is telling porkies. In fact far from it.

    But in the last couple of months we seem to have had a lot of percentage key usage but with no real fact or figures.

    10%-20% brighter, quieter, better, blacker, smaller, grayer. Doesn't help anyone unless we have the figures that prove it. If you can't prove it don't put the % key in.

    If product A has 100 xyz's and product B has 101 xyz's then we can work it out for our selves. which is better.

    :lease:
     
  2. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    Absolutely, especially as 70% of these statistics are subjectively estimated.
     
  3. Welwynnick

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    For what it's worth I think people only use percentages to try and quantify improvements that are observed purely on a subjective basis. It's a bit less ambiguous that saying "a tad" or "a snitch" or "blows it outta the water" or things like that. It would be useful and interesting to have reliable and repeatable measurements to assess what we perceive, but they are probably not at all feasible most of the time. Some people do try to get a bit more scientific on this forum, and others don't appreciate that, which is rather a shame. I know this is one of your bugbears, Roland, but I certainly don't know what the answer is, and I don't think anyone is trying to be misleading.

    Cheers, Nick
     
  4. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I have to agree with you Roland.

    I often find those ambiguous comments almost useless in real terms (on any forum). That's why I like to see any improvements shown with measurements and facts where possible, and then you have hard evidence to prove any claims one way or the other. There's an awefull lot of BS bandied around sometimes and quite often it can be disregarded with some real measuring, simple maths or known science. It can also help you achieve a better image if you understand what's going on - so you know which way to go with your adjustments. That's my experience anyway - a good image is often in the set-up.

    Blacks are blacker?? Really, if that's the case the original blacks weren't black at all were they. :)

    Half the time a simple light meter can help a great deal, and they don't have to be expensive, especially for relative measuring.

    It's also very easy to think something is better than something else, but when you go back and compare, you may find it isn't. Placebo often has a hand in those kind of effects (I know because it's happened to me), but real measures prove the reality.

    Gary.
     
  5. crteaman

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    I know for sure that this thread was not aimed at the 't' man,

    However, to cover any single percentage comment that I may or may not make in the future here goes my penneth worth,

    "NOT EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COUNTED COUNTS,AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT COUNTS CAN BE COUNTED" (Albert Einstein)

    A quote from the great man himself,and ponder it well as it tells us a great deal.

    As many of you will have noted I can drop down and get as technical as any other single member on this forum with regards to a broad spectrum of both Audio and Video, sometimes I simply choose not too.

    Although there are many very technical members on this forum there are also many who would rather be given an opinion without going into raptures.

    Debates between subjectivists and objectivists have always been a point of conflict, some choose to use measurements and believe in them exclusively, whilst others simply refuse to trust them at all.

    I like to think I am nicely in the middle, by having a knowledge which allows me to back up anything I might say, but at the same time not trusting pure measurements.

    Lets use audio as an example here,no audio components that measure poorly can sound the very best and other components which measure well often sound bad.

    Our ears/eyes and brains are the most sensitve instruments we have when it comes to picking up on the incredibly subtle differences in audio/video,many measurable differences are not audible, and many audible differences are not measurable.

    How many of us have compared two (or more) audio cables prefering one over the other yet with no graph or measurement at hand?

    This is an issue of immense complexity, as i have said before elsewhere,imagine trying to describe how something tastes or smells using a scientific measurement.

    How does one directly measure sound quality? some prefer a dry lean sound others a full bodied and rich sound, so do the numbers become unreliable at this point?

    Measurements can also be taken under hugely different conditions thus they should be used with caution.
    So does this mean I am dead against all measurement, not at all far from it,but when I talk about crt's I am drawing on a lot of years of experience.

    Experience is the word here, how does a piano tuner back up the work he carries out for you, what...he just trusts his ears! how can this be, no chart, no measurement??

    After tuning hundreds (or thousands ) of piano's he simply knows by prior experience what is correct and what is not.

    So how do I know how effective a fan mod is? In this case I backed up my initial impressions by using a decibel meter at a distance of 1 metre.etc etc :boring:

    When I perform the modifications on my Marquee, you can rest assure I can correlate what I am doing and why...yes I will indeed be able to give you the exact resistor numbers I intend to use on the RGB amplifiers and Video input module etc.

    Yes it all gets a little silly when anyone goes into 3.5% or 11% and the like, but as said I like to stand in the middle and be both a subjectivist and objectivist.

    Now back to that ultra...

    james
     
  6. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    All I'm trying to say is that there have been a lot of quotes from a number of forum members giving comparison figures as a percentage but are not able to substantiate them.
    Your piano tuner can't say that after he has finished, that the piano is 25% better. Yet that is what we are getting.
    If he added extra keys then we could have x% more, that can be measured.
    If he adds and amplifier it can be be louder it can even be measured and then the figures quoted.
    What I am complaining about is the equivalent of the man in the audience saying that it is "20%" louder than last nights performance.

    Now back to my business of selling projectors too
     
  7. Alaric

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    Blacks are blacker?? Really, if that's the case the original blacks weren't black at all were they.

    Reminds me of the Advatising slogan "New and Improved", if its new, then nothing has gone before it, so how can it be an improvement ???
     
  8. Vince M

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    Do you give a demo or do you hand them a technical data sheet? I guess you let them see with their own eyes eh? What if they asked you if crt "A" was better than crt "B"? Would you refrain from an answer unless you could prove on paper? :boring: :boring: :boring:
     
  9. Boy Lex

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    I hate to say it, but I think you've missed Roland's point Vince. I don't think his gripe is with subjective comments, I think it is the use of percentage figures etc. I'm inclined to agree with him.

    What's the use of saying 'it is 30% quieter' if you have no way of measuring or defining your percentages. Surely it would be better to say 'it is significatly quieter and I don't notice it at all in the quieter parts of movies'. Then at least it is understood what the effect is rather than someone pulling a figure out of the air and then someone else trying to interpret that figure into some sort of meaning.
     
  10. Vince M

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    I havent missed his point,my point is IF i feel it is (using your example) significantly quieter,and I feel it is half as loud as the last projector I have used-then why shouldn`t I attempt to quantify it by saying.."I feel it is about 50% quieter"???
    Its a perception.As long as one doesnt state it as gospel and makes it clear its his/her opinion-whats the harm?

    Isn`t it a stab at trying to quantify the difference-trying to give people a feel for the difference in the absence of complete scientific analysis?

    In fact,If I stated;-"Its significantly quieter" and someone asked by how much-Is it wrong -using ones experience-to attempt to quantify? So I then say-about 50% quieter..do I have to suffer complete anality by people saying you cant say that you havent measured it?

    If I dont tout as a scientific absolute I am entitle to my views-as all of us are,views I must say that are based on experience and the greatest piece of kit known to man-the eye.

    Now lets look at the other side of the coin.

    What about all those that spout measurements- mainly read on the AVS forum-on things they have NEVER seen?

    Measurement without experience of what you are discussing is useless.

    Experience without measurement is a lot more useful. :smashin:
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    yup, missed the point then ;)
     
  12. Vince M

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    If the point is you cant quote %`s UNLESS you can substantiate that percentage-then the points wrong for reasons already mentioned.

    Let me give you an example.

    My opinion is ,my missus rear quarters are 10% larger than when we married..How do I know this? Because of first hand experience of what it was like before-in essence I have a point of comparison..Now do I REALLY know its 10%? No..its my perception based on knowledge-Its an assesment of what I see.
    It paints a picture of a perceived difference.
    Now saying I measured accurately and it was in fact 9.8%..or 10.1%..so what? I didnt state at the beginning:-"My missus-a technical perspective"..substantiated with graphs.

    I said AN OPINION..now why would people doubt me? they may take the view that I know what Im talking about and must be in the ballpark with my opinion based on my knowledge of the situation.

    10% in the context of what i`m talking about conveys more inf.than saying "lots".

    Thats all..no big deal.. :)

    **P.S. This is in no way intended to be derogatory to the missus-as its a bit of a standing joke between us,well standing is the effective word-as i use her to stand in front of the window sideways to achieve total blackout.. :D (oh..oh ..now im in trouble..)... :D
     
  13. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I thought your misses bum was only 5% bigger than the last time I was in New Romney.....but I digress

    I feel all this % looses many of the 'readers' here. As an CRT user of this forum with no axe to grind business wise I have found the last few months 'hard work'. If I find it hard work then I feel others will struggle as well. All the % stuff has turned me off reading about CRTs, I have shelved plans for a 9 inch unit to replace my baby and I am looking at panels again, which have closed the gap on 8 inchers now and will have 9 inchers in their sight next. I am not sure I would be looking at panels if I wasn't board with the % game here, sort of put me off CRTs to be honest, all the claims and counter claims.
     
  14. Welwynnick

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    Nic, I should think you would need a better reason NOT get a 9" CRT than a couple of people pressing the % key on their keyboards in other parts of the country!

    Best regards, Nick
     
  15. Chris Bellamy

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    Yes, indeed, Roland & Gary are quite right, and timely in their comments.

    Unmerited hyperbole and lack of balance or tolerance are other unfortunate habits that I find both tiresome and ultimately devaluing of the comments they support and those who use them. Whatever happened to all those lesser qualifiers than "unbelievable" "incredible" "huge" "intolerable" "awesome" etc. It seems that differences often turn out to be unimportantly or infrequently noticeable, only occasionally are modest or frequently noticeable or somewhat distracting, and very occasionally are striking, and of course frequently come at a cost, pecuniary or in some other relevant practical or quality avenue. I am not at all decrying being appropriately picky or sensitive to quality - which is why we are here - but it is sometimes appropriate to remember the wood when howling about a tree or even a hobby horse!

    Chris
     
  16. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    didn't say I wouldn't but as the latest CRT stuff hasn't inspired me, so I am looking at the very able alternatives :smashin: If the posts had inspired me I doubt I would be looking at panels.
     
  17. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Nic,
    Dont take it too seriously,its meant to be fun! I realise someone that is looking for hard data may not like personal opinions with ANY attempt to qualify differences seen-whether it be %`s,numerics..or scores out of 10....some thrive on experience`s passed on and appreciate an attempt to qualify a difference.

    But lets look at PROVING everything we say..whose "proof" do you believe? Do you know that "proof" is genuine IF you havent seen with your own eyes?

    As an example,Look at how many tout William Phelps and his under 9,000:1 CR as gospel..have they seen it? I have seen a G90 set up by WM and have a very good idea why he got that figure based on how I saw he had setup-setup differently it is likely that CR would be far higher.

    This is one persons measurement of ONE crt set a certain way-and yet most that sing the mantra have NEVER seen ONE example of WM `s work.

    Is this what you want to read? Unsubstantiated,unexperienced technical data?..word of mouth?

    What about manufacturers spec sheets? In most instances-especially for dlp-complete and utter nonsense..measurements taken of maxxed out CR..and maxed out brightness..If you set the picture to attempt to replicate these figures it would be unwatchable either way-and impossible IF you wanted to get the two figures together.

    ..So what is the answer? well someone can go and measure a given projector-Invariably two people measuring the same projector will get different results..one will note things the other doesnt find important-and vice versa..


    ..I have spent years going into service menus and tweaking,using AVIA ,Ovation,Video Essentials..ISF..(all useful to get YOU where you need to be..)..comparing pictures..hundreds of crt`s etc..etc..

    I have been in/out of the tunnel of complexity many ..many times..and back out again and come to a very simple conclusion.


    Go and see the picture..and IF you like the overall picture-buy it.

    Then when you have it,by all means set about maximising-or not..personal choice as long as your happy with what you are watching.

    When I pass on something I have seen,it is to purely note what I have seen-It is not meant to turn someone on -or off...it is my view-thats all.

    Some may agree..some may not...but if someone wants to take the view that it is my honest opinion and that my opinion is useful to them-then great! I`m glad to be of help! :)

    A member in here mentioned to me about Jeremy Clarkson and said how many times has he test driven a couple of cars and said;-"..well this one has a better gearbox,better brakes etc,,but I still prefer the other one..it just feels better.".should we discount his view because he cannot mathematically qualify? Or should we think..well maybe this guy through his vast experience is cutting through all the BS and just telling us the reality..o.k.his reality..but hes the guy thats just driven the cars..now i`m sure there will be people watching at home saying "How can he say that ..the first car is far superior on paper".

    Ultimately,we all choose our poison..we all choose how we articulate something..we should also try and grasp the essence of what is said rather than dissect -or want to dissect -every little facet,we should assimilate what we read in the spirit of how its intended/conveyed-and maybe thats the problem..some dont..some do.

    There are those that will make Clarkson wrong even if they have never driven a car..or driven anything like the amount of cars he has..there are some that will take the view that the technical comparison they read the previous month-of which they may not have been party to-or in fact can validate nevertheless carries more weight for them.

    Though I have my views on who I would be more inclined to believe,there is room for both artists and mathematicians-arguably the real truth resides in the amalgamation of facets of views.

    Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to get two people to agree on a couple of things let alone twenty..or 200 people on ten things.

    At some point one has to believe and trust something,I would hope that experience may be the deciding factor..or at least should be when faced with indecision.

    I Dont for one moment think though, that just because a certain person may prefer to articulate in a flowery less technical way, -that the person does not have an excellent technical perspective on things,Oft I have found,the opposite is true.

    What I feel we must all be careful of is being "frightened" or coerced into not voicing an opinion if it is not articulated in a certain manner..Its not about percentages..I could say twice as good..or much better..its about not making a statement of difference unless you can definitively prove.

    So what?,we throw away passion..and verve and vigour and become a nation of robots where the one with the surreptitious graph with dubious figures-whos seen 2 crt`s in his life is taken more seriously than someone whos seen hundreds?

    Does that make sense? Have we come to a point where experience itself-which was once THE MOST effective tool-is ignored?

    Will that piano tuner no longer use his ears..will he sit there with a laptop plotting coordinates measuring soundwaves?

    Lets hope it doesnt come to that.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  18. Vince M

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    O.K. i`m intrigued to know,what would inspire you say to go for a 9" crt? Better still what posts have inspired you to look at panels? I Would be interested to read them. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Vince M

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    I`ll give you an example,If I have a projector here-say for example a NEC XG135LC(which many this side of the pond have never seen)-and I say that its the best 8" LC I have had to date-and thats bearing in mind I have had all the 8" LC `s except the Zenith PRO 1200X(which i`ll have in a week!!).

    So a regular almost ongoing comparison of similar models.

    Is that unmerited?

    If I try and quantify-lets say for example the colours..by saying the red was "redder"..or the colours had more "punch"..then is that Hyperbole and lack of balance?

    You are saying my OPINIONS devalue me???????? :confused: :confused:

    Hey I tell you what then,lets just shoot everyone that writes different to what we want to read..someone that writes in a different way..that expresses himself in a different way..lets get really serious here..lets start up the "percentage police" to arrest anyone that uses a % sign out of context eh?

    Lets start with me...%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%... :D :D :D

    ..God what is this country coming to.. :confused:
     
  20. Chris Bellamy

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    Since neither of your examples are what I was talking about, quite the contrary, they are irrelevant - which I should have thought was self-evident from the specifics you indicated in those examples.

    However your bizarre assumption that I'm referring to you when I have no idea who you are, and your strange extrapolation to imply I've suggested your opinions devalue you (??), with the subsequent text where you seem to work yourself up to end virtually frothing at the mouth - all about something that as best as I can judge I was not even suggesting - represent exactly the unmerited hyperbolic and aggressive nonsense that puts me off contributing to this forum. Which is a shame, because I visit to learn. Time to move on.
     
  21. Vince M

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    Chris,
    Im not naieve enough to not realise that this thread is referring to me-as I state %`s often-and have explained why.
    If you debate that %`s should not be used -then it follows that knowingly or unknowingly you refer to me.
    I am certainly not worked up though-other than to think how ludicrous it is that anyone ACTUALLY cares whether or not someone wants to use %`s.
    Bizzarely,more important things tend to occupy my time as opposed to people trying to "dictate" how someone should convey something. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  22. crteaman

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    Chris, I too am thinking about giving up on this forum, I joined after xmas as I felt I had something to offer in the way of knowledge on crt's.

    The very best time I have had on here is with 'speedbird' and 'Paul d' with our silly funnies page.

    Since I actually don't sell anything,and am simply a humble installer and crt builder/fixer It makes me rather unbiased, I have no hidden agenda's.

    Sure I am passionate about crt's my customers would not have me any other way.

    I actually receive most of my work from Henry at crtprojectors plus private jobs none of which ever come from this forum, so other than a crt man through to the core, not a hidden agenda in sight.

    I just wanted to pass on knowledge to those that seek it such as 'Gary lightfoot' and 'welwynnick' and others, but its just ended up as arguement after arguement and nitpicking of biblical propotions.

    I keep very busy indeed and for some time now instead of grasping those very rare slices of spare time to sit and watch my crt I spend it on here, I am truly wondering if my time has been well spent.

    I have tried to be most unselfish by giving up my time, event not withstanding , that was great and I met a great bunch of people, but maybe I should just say sod it, thats it ,lets go back to actually watching movies.

    I even pm'd another crt guy on here to say "we should hook up sometime" no reply?
    Whatever happened to team spirit?

    Anyway as said just about lost all of my enthusiasm

    james
     
  23. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I would also like to add to this,the nit picking of biblical proportions can be added to in some instances-in my experience- by dishonesty,people taking too seriously and not moving on..

    Here I am in a thread(or should I say -a thinly disguised pop at my use of %`s) defending my right to articulate how I want.

    Now we all have our own way of putting things,what should always be considered is our INTENT and others feelings.

    I am a crt enthusiast fortunate enough to be selling/seeing various models,What enthuses me is seeing things I havent seen before..like modded up Vision One`s etc..and sharing my views on things that are seldom seen.

    I know from many PM`S and e-mails I receive,that the majority appreciate.

    My hidden agenda? -nothing...My agenda..to sell the best crt`s I can for reasonable money,to bring into the u.k. models not often seen and hope that my customers get the same sort of buzz through seeing them as I continue to do.

    Unfortunately,In ALL forums someone at some stage or another is in the minority-whether wrong or right,"ganging up" can be prevalent,pettiness can prevail,people can become incensed about the stupidest things.

    Of course there is no need,NOBODY should take an exchange of views or a differing of opinion personally,Oft the persona exhibited by someone in a forum bears no relation whatsoever to the reality-and nor should anyone think it does-it should ALL be taken with a pinch of salt and given the degree of importance-that in the grand scheme of things-it deserves.

    Vive la difference I say! It should be about debate and exploring each others views and understanding that, Im sure,-we are all good guys with a common bond-the love of movies.

    Lets be honest here,the PM system is great but there is a "darkside" wherby some will use it to critique another member..or bitch about someone who isnt even aware there is a problem..to me ,this is just sneaky..but like the school playground you will get the odd sneak.

    One member said to me,"Why cant members disagree,shake hands and move on-whats all this not talking to people by some members-its pathetic".

    Yes it is,I can only speak for myself here..throughout my life If I have felt that strongly about someone that I have had an issue with them..I have confronted..discussed-resolved-and shook hands and forgotten.
    If i`m wrong i`ll say i`m wrong and hope whosoever else has a similar mentality.

    Im not saying my way is the only way-or the best way for everybody,what i`m saying is that I feel its honest and that I dont bear grudges..



    I do wear my heart on my sleeve,What I wont do is cave in to the "bullies" or sanitise/change the way I am to comply with somes fickle sensitivities-we are what we are,but what I can say is that all who know me-and I mean truly know me-know my intentions are good and i`m proud to say I have helped many-and will continue to do so..and have always had plenty of time for people irrelevant whether there was a sale at the end of it or not.

    In fact Nick will tell you of the time he wanted to see a crt I had -and it had sold,I still invited him round and gave him a look and we talked for a good few hours..This offer is open to everybody..many phone me and ask what i have and can they pop round-I will always oblige if I can..so "Mini Events" happen in my house EVERY week.


    Having said this,I`m not falling over myself to win the hearts and minds of anybody,I will say what I think is right-not what I think I have to say-or do- to appease the masses.(Like some I can think of.)..Now I know that aint gonna make me popular with everyone-but whatever its honest and I like to think that most will -even if they dont agree with what is said-appreciate the honesty.

    You want to talk "Hidden Agenda"..then beware of greeks(or is it geeks) bearing gifts.. :smashin: ..when the devil comes..he will come with a smile. :smashin:

    But i`m under no illusions here,I`m certainly not gonna be popular with other crt sellers :rolleyes: -I had a guy -very well known on the forum-e-mail me tonight and say;-"Vince,your selling some cracking crt`s at cracking prices-you think they are gonna love you?" :rolleyes:

    One day I may detail on this forum the snide comments,the attempted "tuck ups",the allegiances sought,the desperate attempts to "nick" my customers -the UNFAIR practices that have been perpetrated on me.


    Some people in here will know exactly what i`m talking about and others will know from the repeated digs and attempts to trip me up-what i`m saying..but i`ll tell you this-its just the tip of the iceberg.


    A lot of the stuff that is said to me by some is "sour grapes"..and I KNOW whats behind it..

    ..And throughout I have NEVER responded,I have carried on doing my own thing and turned the other cheek.

    Personally I just think its sad that ALL the crt sellers cannot share information and help each other(its the norm in the u.s.)-??

    ..Nevertheless,stuff thats said in a forum? be honest ,why should anybody bear a grudge about that? Its too insignificant in the grand scheme of things to matter one way or the other.


    And if someone does take something to heart then dont suffer a grudge-go round and have a cup of tea with that person..or a couple of beers..and i`ll tell you what you will find...

    You`ll find in "real" life that we can go a damn sight further with what we say with NO umbrage taken because we can balance what is said by use of our personality..For all the smiley icons its difficult sometimes in a forum to convey a nuance..enthusiasm can be misread as agitation even...But in real life we are all pretty good at getting across how we intend something. :thumbsup:
     
  24. Chris Bellamy

    Chris Bellamy
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    pd,
    well, matters may be rather deeper than I had appreciated, given your post, but I genuinely didnt have yourself in mind when I made my comment - I'm afraid I rarely visit the crt forum these days and am blissfully unaware of the existence or otherwise of darker deeds, or I'm afraid, your own posting history. It is indeed unfortunate if what you hint is the case.

    My original post reflected exasperation at unnecessarily overhyped claims, and separately with the lack of mutual respect for others opinions and sensibilities, and lack of sensitivity to the limitations of written compared with face to face communication that you describe, which causes many otherwise interesting threads to come unhinged (most recently several on AVS I was interested to follow).

    I dont know about %, but if your examples are anything to go by, I cant see anything objectionable for me, and if you did go off the deep end rather fast as I read it, well I can at least now appreciate where you are coming from. Judging on that one post (!) your written reactions still strike me as likely to appear more confrontational than you really mean them to be, and so maybe worth a bit of restraint, but I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree on that!

    James, keep the enthusiasm up. I have no doubt at all that you're very much appreciated. Darkest hour just before the dawn and all that... In fact, I'm feeling more positive already.


    Chris
     
  25. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I think James is doing his James Brown thing.you know where he pretends to go off stage and waits to be called back(never intending to go.) :D :D

    But in the immortal words of that great scribe Arnie;-"He`ll be back!" :smashin:
     
  26. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Yes but this forum isn’t. Pages and pages on car anecdotes and % have meant many of us are just bored or simply not here anymore, gone off to talk DLP or LCD.

    I am interested in 9 inch LC to see if I can get a significant performance upgrade over my lovely but basic NEC 9PG. Re panels, many recent post have wetted my appetite, some here, some elsewhere but I am also impressed by the likes of Gary L, Nick in their search for knowledge / enlightenment. I also note many die-hard CRT users here and elsewhere have changed ships for a variety of reasons….some commercial, some otherwise. I still think it is hard to beat the enthusiasm of a newbie as he sees CRT for the first time, I remember Gordon original ‘Events’ (1,1.5 and 2), some people were gob-smacked. We don’t see this now on this forum at least.

    Re forum politics, and is it about you?, I think you are WIDE of the mark for many of us. Belief it or not many of us actively avoid all this rubbish and commented on the thread as it stands to ‘outsiders like me’.

    The forum is loosing it way, it members and that will mean less CRT sales because of it. If I am bored with it all, then that probably means we have lost many already :(. Just look at the numbers of different people posting now :(

    Do I take things seriously, too seriously. Yes I do, and I make no apologies for it, quite the opposite, I have invested a vast amount of time helping people here either as Nic Rhodes or The Beekeeper. I FEEL these things and I am proud of the limited help I have managed to give. Yes therefore I do have a vested interest, one to help people in AV minefield.

    Hidden agenda, well believe it or not, there aren’t any. PERIOD, JUST LIKE CHRIS. No matter what others might read into the situation. I am just bored with the CRT forum currently and would like things to change for the better. Moving away from % helps, as does shorter more targeted responses. Others may also have some construction suggestions as well. :lease:

    Back to more CRT….on 9 inches
     
  27. crispybig

    crispybig
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    As a relative noob I'll add my two-penny worth.

    I visit the forum mainly to see a) if I can pick up any tips, and b) if I can help out any other noobs that are having problems. I'm no expert, but have picked up a thing or two and consider myself pretty knowledgeable about NECs. I have 6 PGs and an XG.

    I just skim through most of the "hardcore videophile" stuff, as I don't aspire to those heady heights. I'm old enough and wise enough to know that's not for me, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the subject. I just know that everyday circumstances mean it is not viable for me.

    The PJ on the ceiling is a 6PG Xtra. The extent of my aspirations if for an LC XG, not necessarily a 135. I will get one someday, and then be happy.

    Nevertheless, I would love to see some of the top-end kit in action, in the same way that I like to see and read about exotic cars, fast jets, any number of things. It doesn't mean I actually yearn to own one myself.

    The other reason I visit the forum is to feel part of the CRT community. I don't know any other CRT owners "in the flesh". I wish I did, but the forum is the next best thing. I really would have liked to make it to James's recent event, but couldn't. I hope he - or someone else - holds another one soon that I CAN attend.

    To be honest, I haven't actually seen any other CRT HT setups other than my own (apart from the odd business occasion, and that's hardly HT!). I THINK I have a pretty good setup, but it’s all relative and I have nothing to objectively compare it to.

    Vince – are you in the Surrey Ashford? If so, I’m just down the road in West Drayton. It would be great to visit you for one of your “weekly mini events”.

    I don’t mind the “heavy” threads. It’s an open board and people should be able to say what they want. Within the bounds of common decency and tolerance. It does sadden me if they get a bit vitriolic though.

    I also think “off topic” is good too. It’s good to keep an even balance, just as I’m sure non-CRT stuff is talked about at the events.

    I hope people don’t feel disillusioned and leave the forum. A big part of any hobby (which is what CRT is for me) is talking and sharing it with others. :thumbsup:
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Chris(crispybig): RE-YOUR Sig....that's a good compulsion....just make sure it doesn't become obsessive....happened to me...ended up with 5 of the things in a spare room.....I'm sure you'll be able to find some other CRT users in your area. It's definately worthwhile meeting up with others and swapping notes.

    G
     
  29. crispybig

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    Thanks for the advice Gordon - but you're too late I'm afraid! When I said "6 PGs and an XG" I meant six PGs and an XG! :D One on the ceiling and six in the spare room (well, actually hidden away in various places as I don't have a spare room).

    BTW, remember that switcher we were talking about a couple of months ago? You overlooked getting back to me. I wonder if you still have it....
     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    oh my god....you need to see a doctor before it's too late!....I'm afraid the switcher has gone.....sorry...sounds like you need a DA instead.....stacked NEC's anyone!
    G
     

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