LG OLED Trumotion thread

It is out of sync and whilst i agree its very smooth it also..../ Also, yes, it says Dolby vision but my C6 showed HDR, not DV.
Same here.

That said, I love the huge amount of fine detail. All that light streaming through the windows onto the two actors displays a great use of the available dynamic range.

Nice one...
 
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3DBuff

Active Member
Never noticed any issues with Mad Max on my E6. RC and TM off and it looks great, both the HDR and SDR versions.

I did couple of captures of Mad Max: Fury Road. Rather than stutter (somehow frequent) we can call this issue a hitch as most of the time single and random. The capture below is with RC on true film cadence from Blu-Ray and UHD HDR second part. Just watch the scene with single tire rolling. It has 3 skips as it rolls. You can check it on your own TV. The scene is at exact 7:00. Second is right after when Immortan Joe gets plastic armour put on. Just watch upper hand corner as it is pressed against his body. Those hitches are all over the movie all the time. The tire is the easiest to spot 3 skips (hitches) in a row. My standard setting TM 4,0 is exposing the issue even more.

Couple other strong hitches when Furiosa gets in the truck 6:17, panning scene over Immortan Joe 8:30 etc. Once you know what I'm talking about you will see it everywhere in this movie. It almost looks like video processor issue. Unfortunately it is baked into the movie. We could call it the way movie director intended ;)

Here is short article about this movie:
https://www.quora.com/What-could-ex...Max-Fury-Road-characters-have-jerky-movements

 
.. Just watch the scene with single tire rolling. It has 3 skips as it rolls. You can check it on your own TV. The scene is at exact 7:00. Second is right after when Immortan Joe gets plastic armour put on. Just watch upper hand corner as it is pressed against his body. Those hitches are all over the movie all the time. The tire is the easiest to spot 3 skips (hitches) in a row. My standard setting TM 4,0 is exposing the issue even more.
Don't panic.... These scenes (with dropped frames) have been encoded this way. They're like this on the Blu-ray disc as well.

Edit: Mad Max: Fury Road - Wikipedia
 

Roku2

Distinguished Member
Same here.

That said, I love the huge amount of fine detail. All that light streaming through the windows onto the two actors displays a great use of the available dynamic range.

Nice one...
It's out of sync sure, but let's keep in mind this was just a test Netflix was running
 

SunnyIntervals

Well-known Member
Just a note on Meridian

I watched it on my LG G6 phone which supports HDR. It was in sync and looked better than it did on my TV! Nice and smooth, didn't look artificial like it did on the TV
 

3DBuff

Active Member
^ It was probably 30fps on the phone. You have LCD type of the screen and a bit over 5". It is a touch higher resolution than HD but not near 4K and Netflix was sending HD 1080 to the phone at best. It's OK for few minutes but 5" screen is too small for watching 2 hour movie. When you shut the lights off it will glow grey as it is IPS LCD display ;)
 

Roku2

Distinguished Member
The audio sync issue was annoying but given this was just a demo I was able to tune that out and focus on the gorgeous 60fps :)
 

SunnyIntervals

Well-known Member
^ It was probably 30fps on the phone. You have LCD type of the screen and a bit over 5". It is a touch higher resolution than HD but not near 4K and Netflix was sending HD 1080 to the phone at best. It's OK for few minutes but 5" screen is too small for watching 2 hour movie. When you shut the lights off it will glow grey as it is IPS LCD display ;)

Good point about the resolution and frame rate, maybe that's why it looked better! Not sure what the comment about ips is about, whatever..
 

FadgewackeR

Distinguished Member
Folks, quick question from a new 65B7 owner on the latest firmware :)

121 pages is a bit to scrawl through, so, is trumotion broken? If not, which scenarios does it work best in and what effect does it have on content?

Cheers
 

SunnyIntervals

Well-known Member
Its not broken, its designed to smooth out fast moving scenes but the side effect is that the resulting image looks like it was captured on a home video camera; it loses the feel of a professionally created programme or film. I dont use it and I've had no problems with anything I've watched on this set
 

Televiewer

Active Member
I have the 65C7 and use trumotion/clear for everything: Netflix, broadcast tv, motor racing etc and like the smooth motion. I don't see many artifacts like I did on my EF950 and it gets rid of judder.
 

FadgewackeR

Distinguished Member
I’ll give it a tickle and see how I feel. Thanks for the replies.
 

MultiRoom

Well-known Member
My understanding is that the 7 series suffers from the same level of artefacts as the 6 series. Image processing is LGs weak point. If you don't see the artefacts then you're lucky.
 

GrazzaB

Well-known Member
Its not broken, its designed to smooth out fast moving scenes but the side effect is that the resulting image looks like it was captured on a home video camera; it loses the feel of a professionally created programme or film. I dont use it and I've had no problems with anything I've watched on this set

It only resembles that kind of home video image when set to higher levels. People always seem to assume that there is a ‘max’ setting or nothing. I’ve never understood that. No one could possibly say that Trumotion, for all its issues with artifacts, looks like a home video or the ‘soap opera effect’ if it’s set to 2 or 3/10, which doesn’t ruin natural motion but does get rid of some of the very obvious judder with 24p material on an OLED. Unfortunately, on the LG 2016 models it also introduces some horrendous visual artifacts making it useless. I haven’t seen the 2017 models for comparison.
 

MultiRoom

Well-known Member
It only resembles that kind of home video image when set to higher levels. People always seem to assume that there is a ‘max’ setting or nothing. I’ve never understood that. No one could possibly say that Trumotion, for all its issues with artifacts, looks like a home video or the ‘soap opera effect’ if it’s set to 2 or 3/10, which doesn’t ruin natural motion but does get rid of some of the very obvious judder with 24p material on an OLED.

+1 on that. I feel completely the same way.
 

jonspurs

Active Member
When watching football, has anyone noticed:
1. Random 3 small grey circles appear randomly anywhere on the screen for a split second then disappear?

2. Blur/24fps effect on players for half a second at random times?

I've seen these a few times with all TruMotion settings to 0 and Real Cinema off...
 

hakr

Well-known Member
When watching football, has anyone noticed:
1. Random 3 small grey circles appear randomly anywhere on the screen for a split second then disappear?

2. Blur/24fps effect on players for half a second at random times?

I've seen these a few times with all TruMotion settings to 0 and Real Cinema off...

1.with tm on and active, you'll occasionally get splash type artefacts which might resemble blotches, if that's what you're seeing?

2. Even with tm set to 0/0 you'll probably get a slight stutter while it's getting to detect the native frame rate of whatever is on screen. It's generally agreed upon now that for low frame rate sources like movies, dejudder should be used with deblur set to zero, and for high frame rate material, the opposite is true. Using a combination of the two, tm has to try and work out whether to use dj or dB by detecting the natural frame rate and this is what causes that little stutter.

There are some things that will always cause issues, so if you're looking for zero artefacts, your options are rc on for the film cadence or both rc and tm off for 3:2 pull down (usually less strobing but more judder I find).

For movies, you basically set dejudder to your desired level and keep deblur at zero.

I think that the way tm works has been altered slightly since the original firmware when the tv was released,as when it first came out, I'd get the exact same level of artefacts with dj 1 or dj10.... But recently (within the past few months or so) I'm finding that the lower levels do have GENERALLY less issues than the higher ones.

Please note that I'm not saying that the lower values are flawless, and if you know of a scene that causes issues, like the x wings flickering in star wars rogue one for example, they will still do the same at 1/0 or at 10/0. There are certain types of action that tru motion just struggles with.... Any high contrast things like a white ship flying across a dark sky or a dark bird flying through a bright sky, will often cause flickering..... Whenever people use a torch (flashlight), you'll likely get fairly large warping /splash type artefacts.

However, I think things like halos around the edges /blurring in fast paced scenes, etc can be greatly reduced by keeping to values of 4 or below. I find that 5 or above can make things really lovely and smooth, but then you start getting even more frequent issues, and things like stuttering/splash artefacts when people turn their faces start to crop up, and the haloing around edges also show up badly. The higher up you go, the more issues you start to see, even though it also gives an incredible level of smoothness when the issues aren't seen.

For normal blu rays and uhd, IF YOU WANT TO USE TM AT ALL, I'd say something like 4/0 is generally pretty safe. There WILL still be issues from time to time, that's the nature of the beast in afraid. Over all, it's generally not that bad though. It's certainly a lot smoother than just using rc or turning everything off.

For 3d,that's a whole different ball game. Some people still use it, or even use the clear preset... But I find that with 3d content, tm struggles even more and you get issues quite often, even at 4/0.

It's all very much dependant on content, so some things work great with tm but some just don't.

Also have to say, most of this info has come from all the hard work and testing done by @3DBuff. So props to him, I think he's spot on with the 4/0 setting, that's about as good as it gets on the 2016 oleds at least.

The other option you've got is to use something like svp on a high end PC to do the interpolation instead of using trumotion.

I think @MultiRoom is our resident expert on that front, so if you want help setting that up I think he's the one to talk to?
 

3DBuff

Active Member
When watching football, has anyone noticed:
1. Random 3 small grey circles appear randomly anywhere on the screen for a split second then disappear?

2. Blur/24fps effect on players for half a second at random times?

I've seen these a few times with all TruMotion settings to 0 and Real Cinema off...

TruMotion set to 0 as TM 0/0?

Why would you do this? TM off, RC off if you want processing off and 3:2 pulldown.
TM off RC on for 24fps proper film cadence.

Don't know about circles but you shouldn't see any blur with motion processor off on 24fps. TM 0/0 processor is ON and video goes through it but no interpolated frames are generated just 3:2 pulldown. This leads to greater input signal lag, some image anomalies, skipped frames, strong judder etc. without benefit of interpolated frames.
 
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mickbirch2000

Well-known Member
I use Tm on my 65E6 & dont have a problem with SOE much prefer smooth motion to the enhanced 24hz judder that oleds produce the thing that spoils it for me is artifacts & occasional stutter.
I have found letting the Blu-ray player do all the picture processing (upscaling res & 60p) lets the TV processing cope better with motion & decreases artifacts etc. to the point I can use Tm "Clear".
Smooth motion with the minimum of artifacts works for me.
 

hakr

Well-known Member
I use Tm on my 65E6 & dont have a problem with SOE much prefer smooth motion to the enhanced 24hz judder that oleds produce the thing that spoils it for me is artifacts & occasional stutter.
I have found letting the Blu-ray player do all the picture processing (upscaling res & 60p) lets the TV processing cope better with motion & decreases artifacts etc. to the point I can use Tm "Clear".
Smooth motion with the minimum of artifacts works for me.

Interesting. I think I used to try the same, as I thought I noticed less artefacts when my player was forcing 60p too. In reality, it seems counter intuitive though. By forcing 60p, in theory, you're only introducing more judder for tm to try and smooth out, as the player is doing 3:2 pull down to give a 4k/60 signal.

What I do instead now is keep the player on 24p, and I just have 2 picture modes. One is my calibrated dark room settings, with rc on and tm off.... Which I can use for films that don't play well with trumotion.... The second is isf bright room, but the settings are identical to my dark room calibration, except with trumotion on 4/0.....this makes it really easy to switch between using tm or using rc..... As these modes are next to each other. (I also moved my calibrated bright room settings to the cinema picture mode, as I rarely use that anyway).

You can do the same for 3d picture modes. One with tm and one with rc.

I also like to force my player to 444 10 bit, to match the panel.... But if I disable 24p and let the player output 4k60,it often forces itself up to 12bit,regardless of the settings I choose on the player. (I'm using the ub700 BTW).

Might give your idea another try at some point though, but I think I've come to accept now that some artefacts remain no matter what you do, so you either live with them or switch tm off haha
 

hakr

Well-known Member
I also like to force my player to 444 10 bit, to match the panel.... But if I disable 24p and let the player output 4k60,it often forces itself up to 12bit,regardless of the settings I choose on the player. (I'm using the ub700 BTW).


Just did a quick test on this aspect and it seems panny have changed the way it works.

If I enable 24p I still get 444 10bit in every situation.

If I disable it I get :-

Blu rays :- 444 8 bit 4k/60

Uhds:- 420 10 bit 4k/60

3d: 444 10 bit 1080p/24

So 3d is unaffected anyway, uhds actually match the disc and blu rays match the bit depth of the disc with chroma up sampling to 444.

Only down side is that I obviously can't use rc on anything but 3d.

Definitely gonna give this idea another try though, thanks for the suggestion.
 

jonspurs

Active Member
Hi,

1.with tm on and active, you'll occasionally get splash type artefacts which might resemble blotches, if that's what you're seeing?

2. Even with tm set to 0/0 you'll probably get a slight stutter while it's getting to detect the native frame rate of whatever is on screen. It's generally agreed upon now that for low frame rate sources like movies, dejudder should be used with deblur set to zero, and for high frame rate material, the opposite is true. Using a combination of the two, tm has to try and work out whether to use dj or dB by detecting the natural frame rate and this is what causes that little stutter.

There are some things that will always cause issues, so if you're looking for zero artefacts, your options are rc on for the film cadence or both rc and tm off for 3:2 pull down (usually less strobing but more judder I find).

For movies, you basically set dejudder to your desired level and keep deblur at zero.

I think that the way tm works has been altered slightly since the original firmware when the tv was released,as when it first came out, I'd get the exact same level of artefacts with dj 1 or dj10.... But recently (within the past few months or so) I'm finding that the lower levels do have GENERALLY less issues than the higher ones.

Please note that I'm not saying that the lower values are flawless, and if you know of a scene that causes issues, like the x wings flickering in star wars rogue one for example, they will still do the same at 1/0 or at 10/0. There are certain types of action that tru motion just struggles with.... Any high contrast things like a white ship flying across a dark sky or a dark bird flying through a bright sky, will often cause flickering..... Whenever people use a torch (flashlight), you'll likely get fairly large warping /splash type artefacts.

However, I think things like halos around the edges /blurring in fast paced scenes, etc can be greatly reduced by keeping to values of 4 or below. I find that 5 or above can make things really lovely and smooth, but then you start getting even more frequent issues, and things like stuttering/splash artefacts when people turn their faces start to crop up, and the haloing around edges also show up badly. The higher up you go, the more issues you start to see, even though it also gives an incredible level of smoothness when the issues aren't seen.

For normal blu rays and uhd, IF YOU WANT TO USE TM AT ALL, I'd say something like 4/0 is generally pretty safe. There WILL still be issues from time to time, that's the nature of the beast in afraid. Over all, it's generally not that bad though. It's certainly a lot smoother than just using rc or turning everything off.

For 3d,that's a whole different ball game. Some people still use it, or even use the clear preset... But I find that with 3d content, tm struggles even more and you get issues quite often, even at 4/0.

It's all very much dependant on content, so some things work great with tm but some just don't.

Also have to say, most of this info has come from all the hard work and testing done by @3DBuff. So props to him, I think he's spot on with the 4/0 setting, that's about as good as it gets on the 2016 oleds at least.

The other option you've got is to use something like svp on a high end PC to do the interpolation instead of using trumotion.

I think @MultiRoom is our resident expert on that front, so if you want help setting that up I think he's the one to talk to?

1. TM is off and 0/0 is the same. Hence, I shouldn't get blotches or splashes, right? And yes, they look like 1 inch grey splashes - 3 of them.

2. Native frame rate is 50hz interlaced - Sky HD. So for this progressive TV, it should process deinterlacing. But I guess it's not perfect. Just found something on Wikipedia:
"The main argument is that no matter how complex the deinterlacing algorithm may be, the artifacts in the interlaced signal cannot be completely eliminated because some information is lost between frames."

I have a genuine Hitachi plasma (not the budget Argos rebrand) for over 10 years and never had artefacts. Maybe because it was 'ALiS' had helped.

TruMotion set to 0 as TM 0/0?

Why would you do this? TM off, RC off if you want processing off and 3:2 pulldown.
TM off RC on for 24fps proper film cadence.

Don't know about circles but you shouldn't see any blur with motion processor off on 24fps. TM 0/0 processor is ON and video goes through it but no interpolated frames are generated just 3:2 pulldown. This leads to greater input signal lag, some image anomalies, skipped frames, strong judder etc. without benefit of interpolated frames.

I did experiment with DeJudder but I don't like 'soap opera effect'.
For DeBlur, I'll experiment more.
I turn off processing because I want to keep material as clean of artefacts as possible and keep them as how programmes / films are intended to be viewed.
And it seems the broadcasters set the 'mode' - for example, if you watch season 1 of 'My Family', motion is smooth, as if soap opera effect / Dejudder is 10. Watch the latest season, and they've added 'film mode' to it, as if 'Real cinema' is turned on or Dejudder is 0. This is all without actually touching TM or processing settings.
So I'm just thinking, there doesn't seem a point for RealCinema for broadcast movies / Sky Movies HD as the TV is being fed a 50hz interlaced signal (which has the 'film effect' baked-in already), not a 24fps progressive signal. But this would be different for non-broadcast feeds.
Am I right?

As for interpolated frames, surely this would introduce more artefacts? I've personally seen more anomalies with TM on in football than I see with TM off...but I'll experiment more and let you know :)

Cheers,
Jon
 

wxman2003

Well-known Member
There is absolutely nothing more to make TM better on this tv. No hidden secrets. No hidden tweaks. No one has "discovered" something new. It is what it is. Deal with it.
 

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