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Let's flame LCD

perceptionist87

Active Member
Dear plasma enthusiasts,

Would it be mad to think our common ground is that none of us can stand LCD televisions ?

I personally have some prejudices because I was burnt twice with this technology.
The thing I believe in, is that this technology will never, never ever achieve to bring up a decent TV.
Here are the things I will always disgust about LCD:

- Latest design approaches:
crystal clear design, thick framings around the panel and in general plastic look. Why in the world are they all perfect black ? If a technology is so prone to not achieving black levels, the best thing to do is to put it in a perfect black frame, so you always have a reference point of how fubared the on-screen blacks are.

- Anti-glare filters:
results in having a great 'blob' of milky light on the screen. Instead of having sharp reflections that can actually add depth in dark areas of the screen, you end up with the light being dispersed all over the screen. Unbearable.

- Slow response times / motion blur:
watching a football match and the ball leaves white trails on the pitch isn't what I deem as satisfying. I remember watching world cup 94 without such issues and that was before flat screen TVs were common. Certainly can't and shouldn't accept that.

- black reproduction / backlight bleeding / contrast:
to create an image using a backlight for me is a non-sense on paper. How would even theoretically a plain black be possible if a potent backlight is running all time? And how in the world can high contrast ratios and dynamic range be achieved if the whole frame is dependant on one brightness level - the one of the backlight ? But it doesn't stop the manufactures from putting stickers on the screens, stating contrast figures that are just as made up as katie price's knockers.

- Off-angle viewing:
whoever invites colleagues or likes to watch TV with his girlfriend or family knows that this is a major no-go for the technology in the first place. Unless you like to sit in a row 0° perfectly centered in front of a screen.

- Ambilight:
Yes, that's also on my black list. I obviously won't state any brand name but I had one TV that had this well-praised feature. All it does is distracting from the actual image and kill the immersion to the happening on screen. By the way, watch a good plasma TV in low light conditions and it generates an ambilight much more potent than this contraptions who try to make up for lacking brightness of LCD.

- Motion enhancers:
looks catchy on the shopfloor. But actually it will mostly result in pixel clouds around moving objects.
Also sports will be displayed plain wrong with frame interpolation. For example, a football's or tennis ball's trajectory is a to complex thing to predict and trying it mostly results in double pictures of the ball in the wrong spot.

- Pricing:
even though the technology is full of quirks, it is mostly extremely expensive. Great thing to pay extra buck for sophisticated image processors that try (and fail) to fix quirks that should not have been around in the first place, isn't it ???
 
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Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
A tad emotional aren't we? ;)
 

nil102

Active Member
A ridiculous generalisation...There are good and bad Plasma`s and good and bad LCD`s..Personally I had a miserable experience with a Panasonic Plasma and went to a LCD which I much prefer.Dosent mean I wont buy a Plasma again or write them all off because of this:rolleyes:
 

choddo2006

Distinguished Member
Dude

it's just tellies.

I did lol at the idea of sitting in a drinking-game style row watching the telly though.
 

mushk1n

Well-known Member
I'm with him,lets flame plasmas!... it is plasmas we are flaming... right?... I'm so confused *goes back to sleep*
 

perceptionist87

Active Member
Yeah, I might have gotten emotional on this because it bothers me.

Oh and one that is a good joke is the eco friendly marketing front: LCD has brought minorily lower energy consumption, agreed.
But it is more like a disaster they initiated. Had a good eye-opener when I saw what is going on at a waste disposal: Huge - and I mean huge - piles of CRT monitors that happily spill their acidous juices all over.

The disposal costs and never mention man/womenpower to get rid of all the CRT probably makes up for the ecologic proficiency LCD has achieved so far.
Would even for me be too ironic to now mention CRT had a better picture in the first place. :rotfl:
Think about it once in a while.
 

Andy98765

Distinguished Member
You have been visiting Comets or Curry's too often, yes Plasma has the edge in a few domains. But to just script all the negatives of a LCD from your perseptive is a little unjust. If as a lot people do and watch a huge amount of SD then Plasma is a great choice as for HD not a lot in it.

- Latest design approaches:
We have picture frame LCD's (15mm thick) many LCD's in other colours but then again not in Curry's or Comets.

- Anti-glare filters:
I do not seem to have this issue

- Slow response times / motion blur:
watching a football match on my 1080p TV in HD gives me a great picture but then again these sets were designed for HD and NOT SD.

- black reproduction / backlight bleeding / contrast:
I am happy with the Black reproduction on my set although not as good as some of the newer Plasmas or even newer LCD's

- Off-angle viewing:
Never had this problem

- Ambilight:
TOTALLY agree an UTTER WASTE of time and money and god it looks tacky.

- Motion enhancers:
Again agree waste of time, I have switched it off and mainly run in HD anyway.

- Pricing:
A little bit of horse for courses here, if you compare like for like i.e. FULLHD 1080p (1920x1080) there is hardly if any price difference, if you just compare by size then Plasma's win but with resolutions far less than LCD's (1024x720).

- Screen Burn:
Nope not had a LCD suffer with this problem, mostly unique to Plasma's.

- Power Consumption:
In general LCD's draw far less power to do the same job, so overall during the lifespan of a Large screen a Plasma will cost FAR more.

- 21:9
Available in LCD in a weeks time (Plasma?)
 

nil102

Active Member
You have been visiting Comets or Curry's too often, yes Plasma has the edge in a few domains. But to just script all the negatives of a LCD from your perseptive is a little unjust. If as a lot people do and watch a huge amount of SD then Plasma is a great choice as for HD not a lot in it.

- Latest design approaches:
We have picture frame LCD's (15mm thick) many LCD's in other colours but then again not in Curry's or Comets.

- Anti-glare filters:
I do not seem to have this issue

- Slow response times / motion blur:
watching a football match on my 1080p TV in HD gives me a great picture but then again these sets were designed for HD and NOT SD.

- black reproduction / backlight bleeding / contrast:
I am happy with the Black reproduction on my set although not as good as some of the newer Plasmas or even newer LCD's

- Off-angle viewing:
Never had this problem

- Ambilight:
TOTALLY agree an UTTER WASTE of time and money and god it looks tacky.

- Motion enhancers:
Again agree waste of time, I have switched it off and mainly run in HD anyway.

- Pricing:
A little bit of horse for courses here, if you compare like for like i.e. FULLHD 1080p (1920x1080) there is hardly if any price difference, if you just compare by size then Plasma's win but with resolutions far less than LCD's (1024x720).

- Screen Burn:
Nope not had a LCD suffer with this problem, mostly unique to Plasma's.

- Power Consumption:
In general LCD's draw far less power to do the same job, so overall during the lifespan of a Large screen a Plasma will cost FAR more.

- 21:9
Available in LCD in a weeks time (Plasma?)

Pretty much agree with all of your comments:smashin: These 3 in particular

- Slow response times / motion blur:
Never noticed either

- black reproduction / backlight bleeding / contrast:
Blacks look black on my TV...several shades of it as well through to dark grey

- Off-angle viewing:
I often view at quite a wide angle without any problems
 
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choddo2006

Distinguished Member
Yeah, I might have gotten emotional on this because it bothers me.

Oh and one that is a good joke is the eco friendly marketing front: LCD has brought minorily lower energy consumption, agreed.
But it is more like a disaster they initiated. Had a good eye-opener when I saw what is going on at a waste disposal: Huge - and I mean huge - piles of CRT monitors that happily spill their acidous juices all over.

The disposal costs and never mention man/womenpower to get rid of all the CRT probably makes up for the ecologic proficiency LCD has achieved so far.
Would even for me be too ironic to now mention CRT had a better picture in the first place. :rotfl:
Think about it once in a while.

I love your dialect of English. I'm going to try to use "minorily" and "acidous" in general conversation. :D

You can't blame LCD for what's happened with CRTs, they were being dumped all along anyway, whenever someone bought a new TV (albeit less often and without the sudden surge that came with the price drops of the last 5 years) - not sure where you live, but we don't dump CRTs in landfill, they get stacked up in the local amenity site so that we can feel better about it and then shipped off to China and India and probably some African countries, probably to either be hand-recycled in horrible working conditions or dumped in their landfill. It's a big issue.
 

perceptionist87

Active Member
Why don't you...

...just switch off your television set and go do something less boring instead?

:D

Why did you read this thread then, I mean if its boring?
Or is it too provocative, didn't mean to :devil:

Let's go back to talking about how to stop a plasma tv from buzzing .. yehaaa so exceedingly exciting.
 

perceptionist87

Active Member
To the OP: Chill out and get a life.

Hey no need to get pushy over there.

Here in Switzerland we all have lives, you know.
If you have mountain lakes, sun and a football pitch 5mins away you would have to try hard to not chill out.

We also have democracy and one is allowed to speech his opinion, if that's fine with you SIR...
 

perceptionist87

Active Member
I love your dialect of English. I'm going to try to use "minorily" and "acidous" in general conversation. :D

not sure where you live, but we don't dump CRTs in landfill, they get stacked up in the local amenity site so that we can feel better about it and then shipped off to China and India and probably some African countries, probably to either be hand-recycled in horrible working conditions or dumped in their landfill. It's a big issue.

Great to hear you see where I'm coming from with the ecological problem.

*Swiss guy realises that the words he's using are not in the dictionnary*

I don't know what you imagine when you hear Switzerland, probably trees that carry paper money like fruits ?
Chocolate fondue or all of us being fat ? Hey, none of these assumptions apply, neither do we dump our old tellys in the landfill.

BTW: I have never set a foot in a Curry's, is that some kind of dish ? Here these stores are called InterDiscount or MediaMarkt :rotfl:
 

TimCha

Standard Member
I think in say 7-8 years the plasma or lcd discussion is going to be buried forever. Because by then OLED technology will be cheap enough to become mainstream and AFAIK it'll combine the strengths of both and have none of their weaknesses. OLED FTW! :thumbsup:

"All of their strengths, none of their weaknesses".. Just realised I quoted Wesley Snipes as Blade! :D
 
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choddo2006

Distinguished Member
I don't know what you imagine when you hear Switzerland, probably trees that carry paper money like fruits ?
Chocolate fondue or all of us being fat ? Hey, none of these assumptions apply, neither do we dump our old tellys in the landfill.
No, just because you said they were leaking everywhere at a waste facility site. Maybe that's just like ours where they get stacked "temporarily".

My preconceptions about the Swiss are that they'd have TVs and any other potentially harmful waste buried in solid gold sarcophagii in a 20km tunnel dug into the alps and lined with diamond :)
 

perceptionist87

Active Member
I think in say 7-8 years the plasma or lcd discussion is going to be buried forever. Because by then OLED technology will be cheap enough to become mainstream and AFAIK it'll combine the strengths of both and have none of their weaknesses. OLED FTW! :thumbsup:

That's a word I can't wait for OLED! It will have no backlight, but active light emitting diodes. Impossible contrast ratios would be possible, just imagine what power a diode can pack...

Well, regarding Plasma versus LCD:
Should have known from the start which side I'm on. Just had some trials with LCD because I was carried away by the marketing and false pre-tenses.

I might have gone a bit too harsh on my first post, so I honestly try to even the odds a bit. Also, plasma TVs are far from flawless:

- Phosphor trails / colour bleeding (aka purple snakes)
given they're present, things can become quite annoying. This phenomenon occurs when moving bright areas are displayed against dark background: The moving bright area leaves purple/green trails. This quirk is common and accepted in lower-end plasmas and is minimal or non-existent in the higher price range and pro series.
If you see the purple snakes you might get the shakes.


- Power consumption / heat generation:
is more of an issue than most owners admit. There's a distinct thread here in the AV forums from a plasma owner who struggles to keep his room from becoming a sauna in summer. I personally have this problem as well in conjunction with the portable heater (some call it Xbox 360)
We had to abandon our first plasma because it jerked out our safety in the living room - so much about power consumption.

- Ambient light:
this is the major draw-back, I believe. There is literally no plasma out there that stays completely unaffected from ambient light shining on it. Since plasma is a gas and not matter-less it reflects ambient light and shimmers milky against direct sunlight, ruining black level for day-time viewing. And listen, listen carefully: LCD undisputedly has the edge there :D

- Weight / versatility
aw... my back. Getting your plasma installed is a one-time pain in the arse. To move a plasma greater than 50" we better order a forklift.
 
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deadmonkey

Active Member
Why did you read this thread then, I mean if its boring?
Or is it too provocative, didn't mean to :devil:

Let's go back to talking about how to stop a plasma tv from buzzing .. yehaaa so exceedingly exciting.

He he, sorry didn't realise you weren't from the UK, it's the theme from a TV programme that always used to be on during school holidays as kids and I just thought it was appropriate, no insult intended :)

YouTube - Why dont you? - Opening theme
 

petet66

Active Member
- 21:9
Available in LCD in a weeks time (Plasma?)
Until any broadcast company says it's moving to 21:9 (and I've heard nothing so far) this is a gimmick and will have a short life. I've owned a widescreen CRT TV for over ten years and I still have to suffer a good proportion of my viewing with black bars down the side of the screen because the signal is broadcast as 4:3 (and it isn't just the small channels - Sky Sports News anyone?). I can't watch the distorted and stretched images that so many seem happy with (imagine 4:3 stretched across 21:9!) and would just have black bars all the time unless I was watching a full widescreen movie on DVD or Blu ray. Many films are made 1.85:1 now with a cropped frame rather than true 2.35:1 so fit a 16:9 screen better and would just have black bars on a wider TV.

In general though I don't support the point of this thread - I personally prefer plasmas and see all the faults identified in the original post but I know some people genuinely enjoy and prefer LCD. They have their own eyes and their own subjective view of the world, I have mine we're both right so let's just get on and enjoy our TVs as friends rather than start a pointless argument.

And for the record while I prefer plasma I still watch my ten year old Panasonic CRT which, for SD material , beats any plasma or LCD hands down. Which is why I haven't upgraded yet... :)
 

tman

Well-known Member
I think in say 7-8 years the plasma or lcd discussion is going to be buried forever. Because by then OLED technology will be cheap enough to become mainstream and AFAIK it'll combine the strengths of both and have none of their weaknesses. OLED FTW! :thumbsup:

"All of their strengths, none of their weaknesses".. Just realised I quoted Wesley Snipes as Blade! :D

Don't hold your breath. I don't think at the moment OLED is looking that promising for big screens. Sony (the OLED pioneers) have dropped all OLED TV's from their schedule, and now see it as effective only for much smaller screens (phones, PDA's etc). I know Samsung were looking into it, but it could still be some way off from becoming a reality (and affordable)! Ok, 7-8 years may be a possibility, but by then other technologies may have appeared.

On the subject of LCD's, I've always been a plasma owner, and am always telling people how much better it is than LCD. I popped into Curry's yesterday though (don't laugh!), and they had a 40" 7-series Samsung LED backlit LCD showing a blu-ray, and I have to say, I was pretty impressed. Blacks were very good indeed, with no motion blur I could see. The colours were vibrant and detail was impressive. The screen could have been no more than 20mm deep, and the crystal frame looked great. I have to say, at this stage, plasma's still edge it, but it's getting much closer.

I can see in a couple of years time, LCD may have taken over in performance.
 

Monarch

Distinguished Member
Don't hold your breath. I don't think at the moment OLED is looking that promising for big screens. Sony (the OLED pioneers) have dropped all OLED TV's from their schedule, and now see it as effective only for much smaller screens (phones, PDA's etc). I know Samsung were looking into it, but it could still be some way off from becoming a reality (and affordable)! Ok, 7-8 years may be a possibility, but by then other technologies may have appeared.

Panasonic are making an OLED appearence, they're involved in a 37" OLED which is being made, I've also seen reports of 40" OLEDs being made. These are also cheaper (per inch) than previous efforts from Sony. And the smartscreen OLED is where it's going to end up, which isome serious shizz :D. OLED is said to be projected into the mass market around 2015, Panasonic say earlier.

Anyway, this is quite a thread! I think everythings been said. I think plasma is better, but it's impossible to deny how much LCD is catching up, I don't think they'll catch up before OLED comes along though. As for the LED Samsungs, they are the LCD future but, as I've said before, I don't think it's quite there yet, I think it's more of a stepping stone technology before OLED. It improves upon black levels and contrast but motion and viewing angles particularly are still off plasma standards, the auto dimming is also something I couldn't live with. I think it's still a technology which looks great in the shops, but when you get home they still do follow LCD trends and fall in a few areas which could annoy many, and lets not forget the price!
 
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Ebolebola

Active Member
A ridiculous generalisation...There are good and bad Plasma`s and good and bad LCD`s..Personally I had a miserable experience with a Panasonic Plasma and went to a LCD which I much prefer.

Same here.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
Why don't you...

...just switch off your television set and go do something less boring instead?

:D

:rotfl: I will be very surprised if this guy from Switzerland gets this post!!! (or anyone under the age of 30 in fact!)

I think if youre into just gaming 90%+ of the time an LCD is fine. Its on movies that their shortcomings become clear for me. I borrowed my brothers 32" Samsung LCD (a good one) for two weeks whilst I was inbetween Plasmas. It was pretty good considering on freeview and games but for movies...I saw problems straight away without trying (and this was a 32" screen - a lot smaller than Im used to).
 

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