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Let's cut to the chase folks...

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by zAndy1, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Ok,
    I feel like a thread is needed for people like me who have bought a DLP set and are experiencing issues and are wondering whether they are inherent to DLP tvs or just specific to the one they have. So in my case I have the Sagem HD-D45, as many will know it suffers from a frostiness to the picture I believe due to the anti reflective coating. So I'd like to know whether this is specific to the Sagem HD-D45 for a start, if so does that mean no other sets have anti reflective coatings are are they just more 'transparent' than they are on the Sagem?
    Secondly I see problems when things move fast across the screen e.g. someone walks quickly from one side of the screen to the other. Not all the time but quite a lot there are blurring/oil painting effect problems where the face/object will momentarily break up and look all blurred. Sorry if I haven't described it very well but I'm sure I won't be the only person to have seen this. So, is this a DLP problem or are there any DLP TVs (pref using the HD2+ chip) that don't suffer from this problem e.g. the Samsung 50"?
    Thirdly colour banding/solarisation. I've seen this on all my previous plasmas and it can look awful. I've noticed it on the Striker WMVHD clip where the background seems to move and there are bands of colour in it which I haven't noticed on e.g. my Sanyo Z3 projector using the same HTPC.
    Last but not least of course, rainbows. I see them sometimes, last night they didn't seem to be much of a problem. Are there any sets that are better for mimimising rainbows than another?
    What I'm trying to determine is whether I'm going to be better off changing what I've got for something else while I've got the chance but obviously there's not much point getting another DLP tv if it's going to suffer the same issues. I'm not saying these issues are showstoppers for me, last night I thought the picture overall was very good and at times excellent and compared to the plasmas I've had in my time this is certainly a lot better. I may well get used to the Sagems 'quirks' after all it does have it's merits (looks great, HD ready, Picture and Picture etc).

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  2. ihaventaclue

    ihaventaclue
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    hi andy,
    how close are you sitting to the screen?

    i was sitting just under 3m from the screen and the frosting effect was the first thing i noticed, yet when i go to the far side of the room (just under 6m)
    you cannot see it, hence i am in the process of changing furniture around, buying new dining table (smaller), losing the dresser, just to make the lounge bigger and the diniing area smaller
    the bloody things we do for entertainment :suicide:
    which stand did you go for in the end?
     
  3. mistycat

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    Andy, I will give you a full report on the sammy this weekend. I am trying to view it in as many circumstances a poss. but am very happy so far.
     
  4. St_ve

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    I have the Optoma RD50 & i see colour banding sometimes with poor sources i think its
    a fault with all DLPs although some makes show it more than others. I posted about it this morning see
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1527190&postcount=2
    As to rainbows i had the set for two weeks before i noticed them, now i know what to look for if i try i can see them in most dark scenes .It's a bit like those hidden 3d pictures that were all the rage in the ninetys once u know how to do it its easy.If i'm just watching normally i only see a flash every other day.By the way watching in a darkened room you see them more often.
    The other fault with the RD50 is it cannot cope with region one NTSC signals at 60hrz without displaying a judder. On my DVD player an old limit playing a region one DVD i would see a constant shimmering with a bit of juddering during camera pans.There are one or two DVD players that can output at 50hrz from a region one DVD but they don't do it very well & only solve about 90% of the problem. The best way of overcoming the region one judder is with a PC this solves the problem for me & gives me very good playback.
     
  5. philip41

    philip41
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    Andy i also have the HD45, the one thing that is really bugging me about this set is the Anti-reflective coating, it is great for what it is designed for, but it seems to make things look a bit out of focus, especially when there are a lot of bright lights.
    I also get a bit of smearing, again when the picture is displaying a fair amount of bright colours and panning across the screen.
    The Rainbows do not worry me at all now, they did at first, but i have gotten used to them, infact i hardly notice them at all.
    The only other big screen i have had was a Tiny.com plasma, so i cannot compare.
    I too like yourself am not sure if i can get used to its draw backs, for me if i could get rid of the Anti-reflective coating i believe it would be perfect.
    So i am going to give this set a few more days to decide.
     
  6. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Me too, but I wonder what the alternative is. The samsung 50" is too big for my room to be honest, the Toshiba 46" looks to be a good alternative but I'm not sure if it's fully compatible with my HTPC, I've seen suggestions it's not possible to get 1:1 pixel mapping on it. Also I really need my DLP TV to be the same resolution as my Sanyo Z3 projector then I don't have to mess about changing resolutions on my HTPC. I could be wrong but I don't think the Tosh 46" is 1280x720 is it?

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  7. St_ve

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    Andy i saw the Sagem HD45 today for the first time at Comet i love the look of the set without the detachable speakers. It was showing a loop of high def trailers i did get them to change to a tv picture but the colours were off & it was poorly set up with a poor signal to start with so i'm only taking about the hidef picture.
    It had easily the best picture in the store & the colours were spot on the screen was nice & bright.
    But the screen frostiness is very noticeable you had to stand a couple of feet further away from the set watching the magic of flight trailer than i have too watching it on my RD50, also the picture was softer & wasn't as sharp as the Optoma it didn't show as much detail either. Watching the formula one demo faces lacked detail & were too smooth stubble looked painted on.I have seen the same demos on the Sagem HD50 & i prefered it to it's smaller brother.I did see some colour banding the opening of the Magic of flight demo there was some in the water & also the sky. I see more on my OptomaRD50 playing the same scene( i downloaded the 1080i & 720P trailer from the microsoft site, both look exactly the same. I do not know if the downloaded trailer has more compression than the high definition tape being played on the Sagem HD45)
    I think the reason for the poor picture on the Sagem HD45 is the screen.
    I'm surprised that it took about a month after people started getting these sets before i started seeing negative posts about it.
     
  8. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    That's interesting thanks.. I haven't really considered the RD50 to be honest due to it's NTSC incompatibility but I know you use a HTPC with yours, does this really solve the juddering NTSC problem completely? If there is a solution to the NTSC problem then the RD50 may well be worthy of consideration, the fact you said there was more banding on your RD50 playing the same scene worries me though. I don't know why the banding is so obvious on these sets, my Sanyo Z3 shows a perfectly clean image on these HD trailers with no contouring/banding whatsoever. Why the difference?

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  9. KableMan

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    Hi Andy - as far as I know the Toshiba does support 1280x720p via HDMI at 60Hz and 1280x768 (not 720) at 60Hz via VGA.

    Check out this thread and Whiteswan's posts among others:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180829&page=1&pp=15&highlight=overscan

    By the looks of things mrmoo has had some success with this setup and HD material and I think he's using HDMI:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/article.php?a=250

    This was one of the posts that convinced me to go with the Toshiba.

    Cheers
    KableMan
     
  10. St_ve

    St_ve
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    Check out http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_4.htm for an explanation of DLP faults & virtues its a comparision of CRT Plasma LCD & DLP set's the whole article is very long so the link is to the last page there are links to the start of the article.The DLP used in the comparision was a American Optoma rd50 with the HD2 chip very similar to the Sagem HD50
    There was more banding on the Magic of Flight demo on the Optoma but that could be down to more compression in the downloaded trailer ?
    Colour banding is pretty rare worst culprits are older underwater films.

    A HTPC solves the region one problem for me i see slight judder during pans my old Limit DVD player was worse for this , i have Panic Room Region one, on the limit the titles hanging in the air between the skyscrapers trembled as did the blacked out top & bottom of the picture. On the Optoma RD50 using a PC the titles are rock solid and the picture quality is so much better than the limit.
    Only consider the Optoma RD50 if you want to take the HTPC route or have no interest in Regionone DVDs.
    It might be cheaper to buy the more expensive Samsung 50L7 now it's had a £1000
    knocked of it's only about £400 more than the Optoma

    Getting back to Region one judder the film is shot at 24 frames a second & somehow they have to change 24 frames to 60frames they use 3:2 pulldown to do this a quote from the web
    While the 3:2 pulldown process restores the proper speed of the film on video, it generates some unpleasant problems. Two sequential video frames within every five video frame sequence contain images from different film frames. If there is movement of the images on film, 40% of the video frames will contain visually distorted information.

    and another from a different source.
    Cinematographers, working for decades with 24 frame-per-second film, have established guidelines that assist them in avoiding judder. The American Cinematographer Handbook lists formulae that take into account the distance of the camera to the subject and the speed of any given pan to establish a range of limits that will reduce judder to an acceptable range.

    It's surprising considering the limitations of region one encoded material that judder is not a bigger problem on all sets
     
  11. philip41

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    Just out of interest Andy, how long have you had your set and where did you buy it from.
     
  12. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    lol.. delivered last Tuesday, setup last Thursday. Bought from JL. You know what the more I watch it the more I'm getting to like it to be honest. Gonna watch a film on it now and see how that goes..

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  13. philip41

    philip41
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    M8 i know what you mean, 1 min i like it the next i do not.
     
  14. St_ve

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    Lion they had the LG next to the Sagem Hd45 the LG was showing some sking stuff
    & it looked quite good, not as good as the sagem but that was showing high def demo trailers. The one thing i dislike about the LG is the reflections on the screen you'd have to take care where you put it to minimise the reflections.
     
  15. Razor

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    My old Philips 46' crt rear pro was terrible for reflections, you could check your hair in it. Summer time used to be a pain, all the curtains had to be drawn to watch the set my Lounge was in darkness (a few plants died). The RD65 is in the same position with my patio doors directly opposite and I can leave the curtains open with no viewing pronblems. I knew my old set was bad but the RD is very impressive it seems to absorb the external light.

    Lion I know what you mean about the gloss finish. Sony flat panel lcd pc monitors have the same effect.
     
  16. St_ve

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    I have never seen this on the Optoma RD50. It sound's a bit like the problems
    the Toshiba DLP's have?
    Does it happen with all sources or are some worse than others ?

    One of the strengths of DLP's is the ability to handle fast motion well.
     
  17. philip41

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    I have only noticed this a couple of times, particularly on the Footy yesterday on BBC1, when the camera pans the players went all blurred and the grass looked like it was a made up off 2x2 cm squares stuck on the screen, not to impressed at all.
    Does not seem as bad when watching DVD's although it is still there.

    I think i have pretty much made my mind up that this T.V has got to go back for a refund.
    I have a Comet engineer coming out on Tuesday to look at the Green tint problem, I feel this is as much to prove to Comet that there is a problem, (as i doubt he will be able to cure it) as i have already told them i am not happy with the set.
    Does anyone know or have had experience at getting refund out of Comet.

    I have a guy called Andrew Gorman from Sagem calling me tomorrow to explain what the situation is about a fix for the Green tint, i will ask if there is anything that could be done about the Coating, but i can guess the answer to that one.
     
  18. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Might be worth asking about the blurring problem you described too.. see if it's a 'feature' or not

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  19. philip41

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    Be a damn shame if they cannot fix the above, as for looks this to me is a damn fine tv, but unfortunatly looks aint everything, and the thought of looking around for a replacement leaves me in shock, imean i have looked and read and demoed( as much as i can) all hours over the last month. I think i might go insane at this rate :eek:
     
  20. Razor

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    On my RD65 although it is a large screen I do not get any blurring as described at all.
     
  21. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Wonder if the Samsung 50" is immune as well, that's looking like the best option to replace my HD-D45 to me (if I decide to send it back).

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  22. nigel_williams

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    Philip, can you PM me the contact details for Sagem please? I'm going to call John Lewis tomorrow, but I doubt they will have anyone technical to speak to. So I'd rather discuss the set's problems with a Sagem engineer.
     
  23. nigel_williams

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    What sources are people using when faces break up/solarise?

    I have a Nokia Freeview (old OnDigital box) which is connected via a 160Gb TiVo on Best Quality. This needs to be tweaked to give me the better quality though. I can watch the Nokia box on pass-through so the TiVo live filter isn't encoding it.

    Also got a second box, not great, but a Hauppauge DEC2000. This is also connected via SCART, but it has USB also so can be connected via a PC. Might give that a try later.

    Anyway, both these sources exhibit the blurring/solarising during panning. I don's really intend to use the Sagem for DVD watch as I have a projector setup for that.

    I watched the football yesterday and the close up shots had the effect, the background was really bad. But the normal pitch view was OK, can't say I noticed any significant blocking. But I was impressed by the scaling... Normally the centre circle and touchlines appear blocky, used to notice this on my 32" CRT, but they looked fine on the Sagem.

    Going to watch the rugby later, so I'll see how that looks.
     
  24. neilmcl

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    What about the Samsung SP46 or is that not in the same league as the other sets mentioned.
     
  25. St_ve

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    It has the HD3 DLP chip this has half the number of mirrors in a HD2 or HD2+
    set, each mirror is used to supply 2 pixels by very quicly switching back & forth between them this is said to give a softer more film like look that some people prefer.
    Personally i prefer the extra sharpness & detail you get with the HD2+ chip
    when it is done right.
     
  26. neilmcl

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    It looks like the HD3 chip's the way forward though, from what I hear the next 4 gen. chips from TI supporting 1080p will be of a similar design. It's seems that the SP46 has been bit overlooked considering that it seems to be technically identical to its 50" brother apart from the different DLP chip.
     
  27. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Well I've decided I'm returning mine and getting the Samsung 50". I can't live with the Sagems faults they're just gonna niggle at me all the time if I kept it. Just been watching it and the colour banding/solarisation on e.g. peoples faces happens too often for me to put up with it. I'd rather pay a bit extra and get something I can be happy with. I just hope JLs reputation for good customer service means the return and replacement will be sorted asap. Only problem is it looks like the Sammy is as rare as rocking horse poo at the moment!

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  28. philip41

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    All i can say is good luck, Comet do not want me to return this set without a fight it would seem.
     
  29. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Well according to JLs website returns should be pretty straightforward. They even send a courier at their expense to collect it! Fingers crossed....

    Cheers,
    Andy
     
  30. philip41

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    You have a pm Andy.
     

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