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Legal or Projector advice needed

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by mcmullanbrush, Jul 19, 2002.

  1. mcmullanbrush

    mcmullanbrush
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    Firstly can I apologise if I broke Forum rules in a previous post about my Panasonic projector. It was not my intention to do so and I am not sure how I did.

    After 5 days of ownership. I noticed my ptae100 had got a colour tinting problem, green on the right and red on the left.

    This colouring was noticable at all times and extremely apparent in films such as Fargo or black and white films.

    I contacted Panasonic to ask if I could adjust the picture myself, they advised me to return it to the retailer as it was a recognised problem with this unit.

    I did this and now the retailer claim they can find nothing wrong and are asking for 55 pounds inspection fee before they will release the unit.

    After I called them to protest they agreed to forward it to Panasonic for an inspection there.

    I currently am without a projector, 1250pounds short and face the prospect of having to pay to get back a faulty projector.

    Can anyone offer me any legal or projector advice please:)
     
  2. lynx

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    I sent a pm explaining briefly why i deleted it.If you wish to pm me i'll be happy to explain further. (Though i'm attending a dinner latter so if you my get an answer tomorrow).
     
  3. jrwood

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    mcmullanbrush speak to your local trading standards office, I have done in the past and its amazing how quick companies respond when you mean business. I can't go into details but lets put it this way, Halfords tried to give me shoddy service and I made them think again much to their considerable cost.

    Anyway all I did was speak to trading standards and explain the situation, they advised me to write a letter to the manager of the store and also a letter addressed to their HeadQuarters. If the problem cannot be resolved explain that you have spoken with trading standards and know your rights as a consumer and explain to the manager that you have addressed the same letter to the director of the company. If the company thinks its bigger than one consumer then you may have to take it to the small claims court.
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    My own findings with trading standards is that they are next to useless....I had a legitimate complaint with B+Q and trading standards were called. They did little except call B+Q to say they were investigating. Took 10 months and lawyers to get it sorted out of court. Glad to say B+Q were WELL out of pocket at end of day! I will never ever buy anything from them again.

    On subject of projector.....I have sent LCD units back to repair techs with uniformity problems and had them not be able to replicate fault. In end I have usually had to show them myself with test patterns. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the dealer in question may not have a test pattern generator or test discs with white or grey fields to carry out a sensible investigation. I am sure you are seeing problems and I'd be surprised if Panasonic don't see it too. Whether it's within spec is another issue!

    Gordon
     
  5. jrwood

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    Well Trading standards office is just their for advice from what I could see, you have to do the legwork yourself if its a big company like B&Q or Halfords. Usually just mentioning trading standards to a store will make them come round but sometimes you have to go further when up against large firms because they have the money to brush you off as though your a piece of dirt on the bottom of their sole!.

    I actually resolved my problem with Halfords within a month, probably because I personally gave the letter to the manager and had the other letter sent to their HQ by recorded delivery. I received a phonecall the next day and they said they wanted to resolve it as soon as possible and a few weeks later I received a cheque which also contained a number of in-store vouchers which was a nice gesture from their HQ. I made sure when I got my freebie in-car CD player from halfords the manager knew who I was too. Funny how 3 months later hes not there anymore !.

    I notice that companies never actually admit it was their fault, but as a kind gesture they pay up... !

    :)
     
  6. mcmullanbrush

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    Thanks everyone

    I have a feeling the shop I am dealing with have plenty of experience of this sort of thing. I am therefore preparing to be messed about.

    Gordon

    The question of "in spec" is interesting to me. It seems like a handy get out for manufacturers and retailers.

    If, when I bought the projector it had carried a warning that "the snow in Fargo will be half pink and half mint green" and I had still gone ahead and bought it, then I could accept it as within spec.

    The fact that these potential faults are not clearly explained to the consumer seems a little unfair.

    I feel like I have been mugged:mad:
     
  7. Messiah

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    mcmullanbrush

    How did you pay for your projector? If using a credit card then you may have recourse to the card company for being provided with goods which are not fit for purpose. After all, snow is white inanybody's book :D just like the teeth in my big grin :D
     
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    My AE100 has the same problem, but inverted (probably because it is ceiling mounted).

    I'm in the process of being bounced between the dealer and Panasonic. It should apparently be sorted out on Monday...
    If the dealer has to look at it first, I'll have to spend £30 sending it back to them (in addition to the £30 I've already spent returning the first one). This isn't how it should be, not in the first few weeks of ownership!

    The uniformity problem on my unit is plainly obvious on a grey screen and very distracting when watching films. Sadly the first PJ I had was fine apart from one stuck pixel. The replacement has two dodgy pixels and a colour uniformity problem.

    The only way I was able to buy the damned thing in the first place was I finally managed to get a refund out of Sony for my 36" CRT set (go see the TV forum, Sony Scrolling Bars, for info!).

    Now I have a dodgy PJ and, seemingly, half the warranty I thought I had. :mad:
     
  9. Messiah

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    dvdeviant

    Nooooooooooooooo............ I wish now I had just sent it straight back to the supplier as I feel awful. Not only may you have to pay another £30 but with the £30 it cost me to send it to you that's almost £100 just posting them back and forth.

    What can I say? (other than I guess I'm starting to feel a bit better about paying the extra for the Epson :eek: )
     
  10. Guest

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    Messiah,

    As I've said before - it isn't your problem at all. I was going to open it this weekend to try and get rid of the dust blob but I'll probably hold off until next weekend now, pending the outcome on Monday. You wouldn't have seen the uniformity problem on a black screen, only if you went into the service mode.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be happy if I didn't have something to moan about! :devil:

    Regards
    Andrew
     
  11. Kramer

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    Many, or even most, LCD PJs are prone to this problem.

    But some will be far worse, &, as a result, unuseable.

    All I can say is keep moaning, as those who make the most noise get the results.

    I had problems with a German retailer, but luckily got it sorted.

    If your dealer is going to be a pain, try to deal with Panasonic.

    Best of luck.
     
  12. JSW

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    Watched Clerks the other night and the Wife left the room muttering I aint watching that its black and white lol

    Anyway it was just that Black and white :) no colour to be seen anywhere on the screen, so I take it im ok :)

    Hope you get a speedy resolution to yours m8.
     
  13. mcmullanbrush

    mcmullanbrush
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    I informed my credit card company. They told me that because I had only noticed the fault after 5 days, it was in working order when it arrived and therefore not their problem.
     
  14. mcmullanbrush

    mcmullanbrush
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    My wife has the same aversion to black and white films:confused:

    What is wrong with these women?

    Thanks JSW I hope so too, may end up in the small claims court though:(
     
  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    jr:After getting no-where with Trading Standards we made a video of the work B+Q did in our home, the poor design and even poorer exectuion. It was sent along with lists of calls and responses from B+Q staff to their customer complaints dept, the head pf publicity and marketing, the Cheif Executive and the same folk from the finance company. It took six weeks to get a reply. I have still never had a reply from the marleting dept or the Chief Executive....if anyone wants a copy I'll gladly send it..it's worse than anything you'd see on Watchdog! hahaha I can laugh now but they were a real pain in the arse to deal with. They were exactly of the opinion that we should put up or shut up as they were sued to this and they'd win in court.....

    One of the classic staements was that they had good customer satisfaction levels at 86% satisfied clients! So next time you're walking around B+Q have a think that you might be the 87th purchaser that day..or 88th, 89th...doh!

    Gordon

    I completely agree about what is within spec and what is outwith spec. The problems arrise when the dealer or manufacturer have lower standards than their customers. This is a recipe for disaster. I would suggest to everyone that manufacturers and dealers who shirk this responsibility should be avoided. I have put many folk off buying products by showing them the limitations of the device. For some these limitations are acceptable for others they are not. You have to find out before you hand over the cash though.

    Gordon
     
  16. Degs

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    M-Brush,

    The retailer is entitled to charge you if the unit is not faulty. It is only fair that you pay if you are wasting their time.

    The problem comes, as Gordon points out, in deciding what is actually faulty. If Panasonic are happy that the projector is within spec it may be very difficult to argue the charge with the retailer.

    The Sale of Goods Act 1979 as amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 uses the phrase "not of satisfactory quality", which 9 times out of 10 means faulty but if Panasonic decide the machine is within spec you can still try and argue that it is not of satisfactory quality due to its unfaithful colour reproduction.

    As for your credit card company phone them again. Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives you the same claim against them as you would have against the retailer. 5 days does not appear anywhere in the legislation covering this situation and in fact the Sale of Goods Act states that you have reasonable time to examine the goods to ensure they are satisfactory. For a item like this I would submit that 5 days is not an unreasonable time.

    Of course a successful claim against either party here depends on your successful arguing that the unit is not of satisfactory quality.

    Hope this is of use.
     
  17. Guest

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    Sorry to hear about your troubles.

    It sounds like you are unlucky enough to have a minor problem that needs a sympathetic ear to get resolved. Better to have a major fault (like a dead unit) - no one can argue about that.

    The problem for dealers & manufactures (and ultimately for you) is there are a certain small % of people that will return a 'perfectly good' item because they have looked it over with a microscope and convinced themselves they have a problem (look at the CRT TV forum!)

    These units are in high demand and short supply, so replacing a faulty unit is a lost sale to a dealer (thats if they have any in stock anyway). Therefore, unless there is 'a real problem' I suspect that they are going to be very resistant.

    If you simply wanted the unit fixed then you should have dealt with the manufacturer direct. If the manufacturer admitted it was a known problem, then getting them to arrange to fix it would have been simple (at the time).

    You are now in a pass the parcel situation. The dealer has inspected the unit and found nothing wrong. On your insistance it has 'generously' passed the unit on to the manufacturer. Heres your problem: If your pj ends up in the wrong hands at the manufacturer, or the covering letter from the dealer doesnt detail the fault in great enough detail (and theres a paradox if you think about it) then the manufacture will test it in pretty much the same way as the dealer, log the unit as tested and none faulty, and send it back to you.

    I think your best bet is to get into contact with the dept that repairs the units at the manufacturer and ask to speak to someone familiar with the problem. Give them a detailed description of the problem your having (over the phone and send them an email) and ask them to phone you when they recieve the unit (from the dealer). That way you will at least know if the projector was inspected by the correct people, and be re-assured that they know what fault they are looking for.

    El
     
  18. mcmullanbrush

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    Thank you Degs and El

    I will take your advice and see what happens.

    If the colour tint was the same all over, I would have been okay with it. For instance if Fargos snow was ALL mint green or ALL pale pink it would have been okay.

    The half and half thing was what made it unbearable:(
     
  19. Kramer

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    How bad was the tinting on your unit?

    If it was even near as bad as this, I can't understand why the retailer couldn't see it.

    Panasonic shouldn't have any trouble though.

    Posted this B4, but was your unit comparible?

    [​IMG]

    Best of luck again.
     
  20. mcmullanbrush

    mcmullanbrush
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    Its difficult to judge Kramer.

    Yours seems to have circular patches that mine did not, but the colouring is in the same league.

    When I first noticed it, I was watching a normal "busy" film, not a b&w or a snow scene, so it is apparent at all times.

    I should add that my retailer, (who i am not allowed to mention by name) were more than happy to send me a replacement projector. It was when they revealed they had none in stock and I asked for a refund, that they suddenly decided they could not see a fault:mad:
     
  21. jrwood

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    I know this may sound silly but its a long shot.......

    When I had my Sony VPL-CX1 projector I did not use the stand at the bottom of the projector and after about 20 mins of viewing I noticed blotches of colour building up. I switched it off for a few minutes and then back on again and the blotches dissapeared, only for them to return 10-20 mins later. I realised (as did a few others on this forum) that you have to use the little stand at the back of the projector so there is sufficient airflow under the projector. I doubt its that but who knows :)
     
  22. Degs

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    M-Brush,

    Remember in law the only redress you have is a full refund.

    It is up to you whether you wish a repair or exchange, but legally you are only entitled to a refund.

    Of course what you are entitled to and what you can get easily without resorting to court action are often 2 different things.

    If you live in Scotland also remember that the small claims limit is only £750.
     
  23. Kramer

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    Hi mcmullanbrush,

    This wasn't my unit, just a picture I took from AVSforum.

    My first unit did exhibit very similar tinting, but not as bad.

    Initially it was OK, but seemed to develop after about 150-200 hours. This may suggest that your unit was going to get progressively worse, as it started after only 5 days.

    If you were offered a refund replacement, I can't understand what they're at now.

    Very poor service.

    As it happens, my first unit had several faults, the main one being a stuck open blue pixel. Also had the tinting, poor convergence, vertical banding, bulb flicker & a scraping noise.

    Luckily the retailer replaced it, but not without major chasing & lots of hassle from me (named & shamed them also, B4 things tightened up around here).

    If I can help I will, but hopefully your retailer & Panasonic will se sense & sort it for you.

    Panasonic will surely notice the tinting when they examine the unit.

    Fingers crossed for you.
     
  24. mcmullanbrush

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    Thanks Everyone

    JRWOOD

    It occurred to me there may be a simple solution, so I called Panasonic for advice. They told me to return the unit so I assumed there was no easy answer:(

    DEGS

    I am in England, do you happen to know what the limit is:confused:

    KRAMER

    Thanks for that.

    If it does end up going to small claims, I think the key may be that the Panasonic guy I first spoke to admitted it was a "known fault"

    If this is so, it might help me if you and others who have experienced this problem would write a brief statement about the tinting etc. I could use these to support my case:)
    If you wouldnt mind doing this I would be most grateful.
     
  25. lynx

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    £5000
     
  26. Kramer

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    No problems, but I don't think it will come to this.
     
  27. Guest

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    Well, I've spoken to Panasonic this morning and my PJ is being collected tomorrow from my office.

    However, the guy I spoke to did say that if he felt it was 'within specification' then he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. He said that after running for a couple of thousand hours it is expected that you'd have this colour shift but not after merely 20 hours.

    Mine is actually not dissimilar to the picture that Kramer posted. Not quite as bad and more like just green to the left and pink to the right. Before I box it up tonight I'll try and get a picture.

    So, I'm glad the unit is going to be looked at but have a nagging doubt that it will come back with the same problem...

    Here's hoping!
     
  28. mcmullanbrush

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    Thanks for that Deviant:)

    I spoke to Panasonic today aswell.

    They seemed very sympathetic to my situation and were quite surprised at how I had been treated by ***** and ******. I am waiting for a call back.

    There is still the issue of "within spec". I will be astonished if Panasonic regard it as being so but stranger things have happened.

    If they do claim it is within spec, then surely they should advertise the fact that black and white films will become pink and green films and that snow is no longer white:mad:
     
  29. Guest

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    Well, I've just had a call from Panasonic to say that they're going to replace the optical block on the projector because of the colour uniformity problem. The real pain is that the part is on backorder and will take three weeks or more to be delivered. Great, a projector I've had for about two weeks probably won't be back with me for a month or more!

    The worst thing was that the guy I spoke to said that I might end up with more dead or stuck pixels as the LCD panels are going to be replaced.

    Will this affect my warranty (ie. Do I get a new 12 month warranty from when the PJ is repaired?)?

    NOOOOooooo !!!!!

    Any new on yours mcmullanbrush?
     
  30. mcmullanbrush

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    Thats the reason I was unwilling to wait for a replacement from Snakes and Vipers (name changed to protect the guilty), or wait for a repair. I didnt want to see my 12 month warranty eaten away on a product that is not exactly reliable.

    I left this in the hands of Panasonic on Monday, they were going to call me back that afternoon.

    I called them midday Tuesday and I was told they were waiting for Snakes and Vipers to call back. Well, they will have a bloody long wait if my experience is anything to go by:mad:

    I decided "sod this for a game of soldiers" and called my credit card company, I spoke to a wonderful lady who has now refunded my account. I have sent them a statement and they will recover the money from the retailer.

    I am now left without a projector and I miss it:(

    I dont know whether to risk buying another Panny or look for alternatives. I could save up for a couple of months which would give me about 2,000 to spend.

    Anyone got any recomendations for a PJ at that price, or should I wait and see what happens in the PJ world:confused:
     

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