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Leaving the EU

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Does anybody here have any unbiased, non politically driven data on the good bad and the ugly.

Presumably hard to find but any independent bodies looked at it?

I'm not keen on certain EU interference and it does seem hard to believe we would significantly lose trade , presumably all the EU still want to do business with us.
 

sidicks

Banned
Does anybody here have any unbiased, non politically driven data on the good bad and the ugly.

Presumably hard to find but any independent bodies looked at it?

I'm not keen on certain EU interference and it does seem hard to believe we would significantly lose trade , presumably all the EU still want to do business with us.

The Guardian did a piece that was linked to on here just a few days ago, not sure if that covers the area you are interested in?
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
EU covered properly by a Broadsheet ... | AVForums link in the first post.

As for a side by side table, I think it is too contentious and open for interpretation for that, but I'd yet to see the 'Good' side, I have a set for the huge 'Bad and Ugly' column.

There is the War issue, but seeing as Europe didn't go to war in the 40 or more so years before the invention of the EU, but has had a massive financial crisis far worse than any before it existed with no end in sight if there was a war it would probably be worse too :D
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
I'm really in the dark on the subject, I have to say, I should be better clued up by now.

I had presumed the benefit of leaving the EU would be things like more control over our borders, less paid in EU fees etc?
 

sidicks

Banned
I'm really in the dark on the subject, I have to say, I should be better clued up by now.

I had presumed the benefit of leaving the EU would be things like more control over our borders, less paid in EU fees etc?

Control over our own laws.

Stop our business being forced to comply with a EU rules when 95% of those businesses don't trade with the EU.

The immigration issue is huge, given the impact on the economy in terms of the cost of providing public services, benefits etc,
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
I'm really in the dark on the subject, I have to say, I should be better clued up by now.

I had presumed the benefit of leaving the EU would be things like more control over our borders, less paid in EU fees etc?
Controlling our own laws is the biggie for me personally, immigration of the wrong kind and volume has a negative effect on services and the pay and conditions of some of our poorest.
We can't deport EU criminals for some reason, the issues with our borders are creations of decades of governments not investing the required money to have a proper border though, even leaving the EU won't really sort out the worst sort of people coming into the UK, but we could at least kick them out when discovered/caught.

There are institutions like standardizing bodies but much older ones like the IEEE have existed far longer internationally, there is also the european arrest warrant, same thing, the difference is non of the long standing international require a political union and a succeeding of sovereignty.

The money to europe is distasteful but the least of the issues, self determination, having our own representatives who we elect and can kick out make our laws is by far the most important thing. As it is any and all EU laws supersede nation state laws. A eurovision like block voting could easily force laws on UK citizens we do not want, and we would be powerless to do anything about it.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Seems like Cameron has a decent policy then strangely.

Stay in the EU so we don't lose out on any strengthened trade agreements but have them make concessions so we have control of the worst elements we don't like.

I think I'm in agreement on the immigration, I'm not anti-immigrant but I do think like many countries if you're going to come over to stay, you need to (a) provide a service somebody locally isn't doing (b) speak the language and not put an additional strain on the education system) (c) not be allowed to claim financial benefits without putting something into the system first.

I don't think that's wholly unreasonable.

As I understand it the EU pays back a pretty significant sum of the money we pay in.

Seems like one of those issues that's very hard to pin down what could/would happen moving forward.

What I think we can say with some certanty is that major EU countries arn't going to want to trade with us, unless leaving the EU somehow removes benefits that cause them a financial hardship over doing the same deals with somebody else.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Can an Island this size, ever really have an efficient border control without costs exceeding the benefits?

People seem to be prepared to go through some pretty awful circumstances to get here unnoticed.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Cameron is not wanting to reverse the lisbon treaty bit about EU laws superseding national (UK) laws, without that his negotiations are pointless.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Can an Island this size, ever really have an efficient border control without costs exceeding the benefits?

People seem to be prepared to go through some pretty awful circumstances to get here unnoticed.
We don't count people going out, we effectively don't know who or how many are in the country.
Most countries I've been to require an exit form, hardly a huge issue, and could be provided by holiday companies as a print out as part of whole booking process, making it painless for the passenger too.
From my experience ferries/coaches don't seem to do any significant passport checks either.

Plenty that can be done without needing an eye of sauron or a coastal hadrians wall.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Is the people leaving a problem, are we not concerned with the people coming?

Or do you mean , people who claim they are staying for a short duration but never leave?

I just had an epiphany, there's obviously a flaw in the plan but why not simply provide no financial benefits unless you've been in the country for 3 years and already paid taxes for 2 years.

Wouldn't that essentially kill anybody who's not coming to pull their weight, and those that do come over to add value and pay into the system are welcome in my book.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Cameron is not wanting to reverse the lisbon treaty bit about EU laws superseding national (UK) laws, without that his negotiations are pointless.

But isn't the point , he's attempting to do a deal whereby we don't need to supercede EU laws, we are simply not beholden to certain ones.

Isn't that the point?
 

sidicks

Banned
Is the people leaving a problem, are we not concerned with the people coming?

Or do you mean , people who claim they are staying for a short duration but never leave?

I just had an epiphany, there's obviously a flaw in the plan but why not simply provide no financial benefits unless you've been in the country for 3 years and already paid taxes for 2 years.

Wouldn't that essentially kill anybody who's not coming to pull their weight, and those that do come over to add value and pay into the system are welcome in my book.

1) you can't do that under EU law

2) only those in the top 30% of earners are genuinely 'pulling their weight'...
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Is the people leaving a problem, are we not concerned with the people coming?

Or do you mean , people who claim they are staying for a short duration but never leave?

I just had an epiphany, there's obviously a flaw in the plan but why not simply provide no financial benefits unless you've been in the country for 3 years and already paid taxes for 2 years.

Wouldn't that essentially kill anybody who's not coming to pull their weight, and those that do come over to add value and pay into the system are welcome in my book.
No sorry simpler than that, we don't know which passport numbers are in the uk and which are outside.

We don't check how many people leave properly, we certainly don't know who they are. There are immigration issues with people using a single passport to allow multiple people to enter the Uk.

Saddly those are against EU laws for the most part.

Only a fool would dislike people because of their race/colour or foreignness etc, but only a fool would turn a blind eye to unsavoury individuals, incredible competition for certain jobs while unemployment is high, or sheer numbers that cause infrastructure to crumble and have negative effects on the health of our tax payers and the education of our children, because these people are foreign they get a free pass, otherwise you're a racist.

It is all about the numbers ultimately, society has an osmosis like factor, I think we've went beyond our maximum. In simple numbers or as a proportion there has never been this level of immigration over such a period of time into the UK, not even in Roman times.

Thats before we get into nasty cultural imports like FGM, honour violence/killing ... or lack of cultural homagany, ghetto's of foreign culture and language with our own borders.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
No sorry simpler than that, we don't know which passport numbers are in the uk and which are outside.

But you can clearly determine who has paid taxes and who has not, so I'm lost as to why a simple rule like you can't claim benefits unless you've paid into the system wouldn't curtail people coming here purely to scrounge.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
But isn't the point , he's attempting to do a deal whereby we don't need to supercede EU laws, we are simply not beholden to certain ones.

Isn't that the point?
Yes but it means any future laws the PM has to go bowing and scraping to the EU every time they make a law we don't agree with. Better just to say we control our own laws, "we're happy to go along with the EU for most of them, but if there are any that don't take our fancy we'll legislate against them", and if they feel we aren't holding our end up enough they can kick us out.

I have a massive problem with the lack of democracy in the EU, but if we retain the right to opt out of that at will then it is nullified for us, the rest of the EU will have to decide for themselves how they want to be governed.

Also the EU is very keen to get tax raising/collecting powers of they own, this has been resisted on all fronts, but the new financial transaction tax would see money going direct to brussels, 90% of which would come from London. If they want taxes they need better representation, the EU parliament is toothless dog with a wagging tail.
 
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Dextur

Distinguished Member
I'm not au fait with the deal in it's entirety, but you have to presume any major fight now would include all the issues that are a real problem with language embedded that new laws are subject to similar discussion without penalty.

It would be very short sighted not to structure it that way, can't imagine the best people he have would draw up a document that important without even the slightest forward thinking.
 

sidicks

Banned
I'm not au fait with the deal in it's entirety, but you have to presume any major fight now would include all the issues that are a real problem with language embedded that new laws are subject to similar discussion without penalty.

It would be very short sighted not to structure it that way, can't imagine the best people he have would draw up a document that important without even the slightest forward thinking.

You miss the whole point - the EU wants to control everything, they simply won't allow the sort of "get out" that Cameron is proposing..
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
I'm not au fait with the deal in it's entirety, but you have to presume any major fight now would include all the issues that are a real problem with language embedded that new laws are subject to similar discussion without penalty.

It would be very short sighted not to structure it that way, can't imagine the best people he have would draw up a document that important without even the slightest forward thinking.
?

But you can clearly determine who has paid taxes and who has not, so I'm lost as to why a simple rule like you can't claim benefits unless you've paid into the system wouldn't curtail people coming here purely to scrounge.
Sorry there are two issues here one is our boarder security, it is weakened by the things I've mentioned.
The second is benefits and working in the UK, those can be got around but it often a case of these people working illegally often for little wages and living in illegal buildings like outhouses and converted garages/sheds.

Until recently I don't think it was legal to share information between government departments, so access to services didn't depend on having say an NI number or birth certificate etc.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member

You said, you were concerned with new laws coming into play we would have to deal with.

I said, it would be surreal to the point of absurdity to think that hasn't been considered and there's caveats to explore those new laws as the EU brings them to the table.


The second is benefits and working in the UK, those can be got around but it often a case of these people working illegally often for little wages and living in illegal buildings like outhouses and converted garages/sheds.

But they wouldn't be able to claim benefits if they couldn't prove UK legitimacy and paying tax, neither of which would be viable if they were working illegally.

Until recently I don't think it was legal to share information between government departments, so access to services didn't depend on having say an NI number or birth certificate etc.

Gotya, well that of course would have to change, it seems relatively simple for minimal data from the tax office to be visible. Basically all you need to know is, have they paid into the system -yes or no for ex period.

If not, then sorry son, you're on your own and by the way, here's the police to have a quick chat about where you're working and living...
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
You said, you were concerned with new laws coming into play we would have to deal with.

I said, it would be surreal to the point of absurdity to think that hasn't been considered and there's caveats to explore those new laws as the EU brings them to the table.
The council of ministers which consists of the relevant minister from each country e.g. transport or education can veto laws. Unfortunately a minister could get out witted at this vital point, or simply not care. But as it turns out it doesn't matter anyway as the last consecutive 19 times the a UK minister at the council has said no the law has been enacted and is on UK statute books anyway.

But they wouldn't be able to claim benefits if they couldn't prove UK legitimacy and paying tax, neither of which would be viable if they were working illegally.
True, while there are ways around it, for example there are plenty of cases of individuals claiming benefits for multiple fake identities and having passports and ni numbers etc, that any individual doing it would go unnoticed as honestly once you have the papers who is to say it isn't genuine?

Further while cash benefits will only be given to those that pay tax and have ni numbers, services like the NHS and education can still be used by illegal and the family of illegal residences. So it isn't necessarily simply about people claiming the dole.

Gotya, well that of course would have to change, it seems relatively simple for minimal data from the tax office to be visible. Basically all you need to know is, have they paid into the system -yes or no for ex period.

If not, then sorry son, you're on your own and by the way, here's the police to have a quick chat about where you're working and living...
Indeed, sorry I haven't had a chance to say I agree with the idea, got side tracked into numerous avenues.
The same should apply to UK citizens, except maybe a subsistence amount of the very least to survive on as we need to look after our own citizens, while foreign citizens EU or otherwise could be deported if not showing a willingness or ability to gain employment. Of course the moral hazard is we have people sleeping rough to avoid being deported.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
But as it turns out it doesn't matter anyway as the last consecutive 19 times the a UK minister at the council has said no the law has been enacted and is on UK statute books anyway.

Understood, but the whole point of the process is to make that a thing of the past presumably. That's the entire point. We can't constantly look to what has happened and ignore the fact this process is to rectify that situation.


True, while there are ways around it, for example there are plenty of cases of individuals claiming benefits for multiple fake identities and having passports and ni numbers etc, that any individual doing it would go unnoticed as honestly once you have the papers who is to say it isn't genuine?

Well I guess on that basis, it would be irrelevant who's in power and what prevention you have against immigrants no? Even if you flat out refused to allow them in and they were that determined they could fake passports etc, it's not like a law saying you can't do that would stop them.


Further while cash benefits will only be given to those that pay tax and have ni numbers, services like the NHS and education can still be used by illegal and the family of illegal residences. So it isn't necessarily simply about people claiming the dole.

I guess, though same issue, the NHS should absolutely be able to see on the system whether you're legit or not, or no care. Seems like we simply need better governmental cooperation on basic level data. My guess however is , while many could manage without the NHS, they couldn't without free housing, and free money every month. That has to make the entire free run in Englandseem significantly less appealing at least.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
Does anybody here have any unbiased, non politically driven data on the good bad and the ugly.

Presumably hard to find but any independent bodies looked at it?

I'm not keen on certain EU interference and it does seem hard to believe we would significantly lose trade , presumably all the EU still want to do business with us.
difficult not to be political about this issues as people have strong views about it .I am firmly in the pro EU camp.Maintaing the pace for over 60 years is one very good reason of existence and its not just about the thereat of force as in Nato either but attempting to spread prosperity right across the union so that there would be far less cause future uprisings as had been the case on many occasions before .Europe has been a tinderbox for centuries.
I also think a single market with rules applying to every member nation makes sense as I believe a single currency ultimately will .
Its far from perfect but I'll take it over any other alternative.I particularly like the idea that previously horse cart nations like Spain, Portugal, and Ireland are much more prosperous than they once were (despite the current crisis) and I very much hope the same applies to the eastern countries which have jumped on board
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Its far from perfect but I'll take it over any other alternative.I particularly like the idea that previously horse cart nations like Spain, Portugal, and Ireland are much more prosperous than they once were (despite the current crisis) and I very much hope the same applies to the eastern countries which have jumped on board
WTF are you on about, do you think they only got electricity and the motor car when they joined the EU, you are one ignorant man.

Spain for one has been building cars for decades, ever heard of SEAT?

Some of the more recent joiners have been horse and cart, in fact the horse meat scandal is partially due to rules on domestic work animals from the EU, meaning horses and donkeys become only worth something as cattle. Comparing modern day bulgaria to even 1980's Ireland, Spain or Portugal shows a supreme lack of knowledge.

Further thats one of the problems, impoverished foreigners who can get out of those countries will, adding unwanted pressure on unskilled work in countries like the UK, and services like the NHS, police (social cohesion suffers from an influx from an unfamiliar culture) and schooling. And depopulates these new countries of the young and fit, leaving no one to pay taxes, build infrastructure or improve education.

Even Cameron is right in saying freedom of movement should only occur once a near Western European standard is reached, rather than the most impoverished countries in europe and amongst the world poring out of its native country.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Understood, but the whole point of the process is to make that a thing of the past presumably. That's the entire point. We can't constantly look to what has happened and ignore the fact this process is to rectify that situation.
Sadly I don't think there is any such proposal, no change to this part.
 

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