Leaf II announcement due tomorrow, who's waiting up?

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by DrPhil, Sep 5, 2017.

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  1. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    My wife is trying to get me to hold off until early next year instead of late this year.

    The question is whether my current leaf will depreciate more in an extra 6 months than the amount I can save in the same period. I'm inclined to think the depreciation is faster than my savings which means I'd be better changing sooner.
     
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  2. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    I agree, that is superb spec. Great value for money.
     
  3. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    Had my first spin in the new Leaf yesterday, only briefly. My friend has one out for an extended test drive so he gave it a thorough thrashing to see how it coped!

    To summarise:
    *Very nice car inside and out. Much better than the previous Leaf all round.

    *Lots more power. I remember test driving my first ever Leaf and finding myself speeding without realising. I did that again yesterday. Was busy telling my friend to check the efficiency now that I was driving more slowly than he had been (he was doing 70mph for most of 65 miles). Then he pointed out that I was actually doing over 80mph...

    *The infotainment system is nicer than the old Leaf but still not spectacular. The phone interface is still awful, can't be navigated using the wheel buttons so you have to use the touch screen.

    *The demo didn't have Pro pilot or park. But I did use the adaptive cruise control and it was very nice. I haven't driven a car with that before so I have nothing to comare it to, but I certainly liked it.

    *He hammered the car in 4 degrees, wet and windy, averaging 70mph. He reached me after 65 miles and using 65% which suggests that the worst case scenario is indeed about 100 miles.

    I then drove for about 20 miles, same weather conditions but ranging from 55mph in some traffic, up to 80mph+ when I went nuts on the dual carriageway. That 20 miles used 16% which would work out as 125 miles, not bad given how hard I pushed it.

    *He plugged in at a fast charger at 11% and it took exactly 40 minutes to reach 80%. The charger was pulling 45kw at the start but only 26kw at the end. I wasn't there so I'm not sure when the tapering started.
     
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  4. aandpwoodley

    aandpwoodley
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    I really enjoyed my test drive & placed my order.

    Since then I have sorted the drive & had the man hole covers replaced.

    Podpoint home charger has been arranged & grant approved.

    I’m now having second thoughts, I’m hearing to a lot of chatter around rapid chargers not working.

    I’m getting nervous
     
  5. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    The worrying rumour (that nobody seems to have confirmed or denied yet) is that if doing multiple rapids on the same journey, the charge rate drops considerably. As in half speed on the second charge!
     
  6. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    I doubt it’s a rumour. Rapid charging kills the batteries quicker so the in built battery management will control every charge depending on battery condition at the time. How good is the battery cooling system (if fitted)? A second rapid charge after use will mean hotter batteries.

    20-80% is the best range to recharge Li-ion and where a charge does the least damage to the number of charge cycles in the life of the battery. Rapid charging has always been an issue as it increases the damage per charge cycle. If they don’t manage it you will need to replace tha batteries in about half the time than if you only charge on a 13 A plug.

    It’s a trade off at the end of the day and the battery conditioning systems are expensive. Battery management overall though is critical to avoid a total failure of EVs in the mass market.
     
  7. Synchro

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    Volvo paint jobs never have this problem ;)
     
  8. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    In the days of the first version of the Leaf rapid charging was highlighted as a potential issue for long term battery degradation, but by the time my version rolled around it was widely believed to be overstated as the batteries were holding up much more than expected.

    In fact with the "1.5" gen Leaf it was thought that rapid charging at least some of the time was good for the overall health of the battery and that time rather than cycles was the more prominent factor in capacity loss.
     
  9. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    I don’t doubt the experts have refined the scenarios however what the public perception of rapid charging is and what the manufacturer said if the cars will allow within battery management will be wildly different. The fact is the second and third rapid charges on one journey will be slower. They may have tweaked to allow a bit more juice but if they let it do what it wants to do punters will be happy with rapid chrging for about 4 years and then will be demanding free battery packs. Manufacturers will provide the balance so the battery packs still last the time they say. Stress in use and charging (charge cycles) will not go away with this technology - get refined yes but never go away.

    Ultra capacitors will reduce them - some types have unlimited charge cycles with zero degradation. Rapid charge is a feature not an add-on due to demand and use. Power density is the challenge with them and they are working on that. Won’t see them next year that’s for sure but if they can solve the power density issues they are a good fit for cars.

    I guess proper lithium polymer batteries are next up - cost is likely the factor there but as usual that will fall pretty quickly.

    Battery life has been better I suspect because manufacturers have added some kind of conditioning once these were mass marketed. The T word go all the way to climate cont (almost) while many will add a fan.

    The charge/stress/life cycle physics hasn’t changed much - (heat/stress) management means the technology is lasting better than if it had none, like phones (not talking discharge management here) hence that is all we had to guess with IMO.
     
  10. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Are dealers explaining this “feature” to potential customers?

    I must admit that if fast charge isn’t available really then sure that is false advertising.

    IMG_2258.JPG

    Looks like Nissan wants to say something by the inclusion of the double **, but then don’t actually go into that detail.
     
  11. IronGiant

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    ** Time dependent on charging conditions, including Quick Charger type and condition, battery temperature and size as well as ambient temperature at point of use. Shown for a 40kW battery. Indicated semi-fast charging time requires use of a 32A / 6.6kW (7kW) wall box.



    *** Battery warranty terms and conditions apply, please click here
     
  12. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Interestingly that doesn’t show up when viewing on my phone. Anyway, so they don’t acknowledge that. That is not good.
     
  13. lovegroova

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    You need to scroll to the bottom of the page, it's all there (underneath the "Electrify The World" heading).
     
  14. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    LOL Found it, so nearly to the bottom but not in the footer, and not in the section in the body above the footer...Grrr you got to love some web designers...
     
  15. IronGiant

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    "Charging time is dependent on battery temperature"

    So, and I think we already knew this: if you turn up at a fast charger with a hot battery, it's not going to charge at the maximum rate.
    Obviously some manufacturers are putting more effort into active temperature management than others and I can see the market diversifying at some point, into commuter vehicles and long rangers (assuming this isn't already happening :)).
     
  16. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    It is all fast as it is compared to semi fast at 7KW and normal on a 13A plug. Good to see Nissan acknowledge the physics in the adverts. As I said the rumours are not rumours - they are reality. Each fast charge on run will take longer than the last. They are all fast though.....
     
  17. LV426

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    I don't know if the all do it, but my Ioniq has the cabin atmosphere outlet positioned under the rear seat such that it exhausts around the battery. Hence (in theory) the battery's temperature is at least partly managed by waste heat or cold coming from the interior. I doubt that hot weather will ever be an issue in the UK at least; I suspect internal temperatures rise in charging anyway.

    And for cold conditions there is a battery heater. Quote from the UK site:
    "Battery conditioning The integrated heating system warms the
    high-voltage battery to maximise both charging
    performance and driving range in low-temperature conditions. "

    I was interested to see some range statistics above for the new 40kWh Leaf. Accepting the claimed "extreme" driving may well have had a material effect, 1 mile per percent charge compares quite unfavourably with our real-world experience with our meagre 28kWh. We have easily been getting 1.15 miles per percent (115 total) - driven neither gingerly nor extremely; that figure is calculated, not from actually running it dry, but from totalling the trip counter (85) and remaining range (30) after a single non-stop trip consisting of (in distance) about 40% Motorway with the rest a fairly fast and quiet B road and some stop-start in-town, with interior climate on at 21 deg C on Friday last. Ditto three weeks earlier on the same trip but using a more motorway/dual carriageway emphasised route.
     
  18. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Sorry but that is woolly like a mammoth. If they want to attract ordinary people they need to clearly state what they mean. No good arguing that I can’t charge to 80% in 40 minutes when I’ve got a wife and two children in the car and we are on our way back home. Sorry darling as this is our third stop it now takes 120minute to charge the batteries. The moment I would utter the words but it is still fast I’ll get a free castration and some expletives.

    Perhaps I’m missing something here, I’ve never heard that Tesla has such issues. Or am I wrong there? Does a Tesla slow down its charging as well? Perhaps @gangzoom can clarify that point.
     
  19. IronGiant

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    As inferred above, Tesla has much more aggressive battery management, including active cooling. (perhaps aggressive is the wrong word here). See here: Teardown of new 100 kWh Tesla battery pack reveals new cooling system and 102 kWh capacity Apart from the fact Teslas can go much further between charges, so they will most likely get there with an optimum temperature battery, the cooling circuits will insure that they do. Presumably the cooling ramps up during charging too. I think you'll find most current EVs (other than Tesla) suffer from the same issues as the New Leaf to some degree, so it's not a new thing that they are omitting to tell you.

    Edit: Should add, no I don't think Teslas suffer from this.
     
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  20. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Well it is a new thing when you are new to EV's ;) And I'd suggest a rather important thing as well. All I can see on the website is that it is a 40-60 minute charge. Sure I'll accept a standard deviation but more than that should be very clearly and unambiguously stated in my opinion.

    LOL Every-time I get so close I find myself drifting away again. I'm glad I haven't been pushing this one too hard with my even more gorgeous half as I don't think I'd survive that one...
     
  21. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    I have no issue with slower charging as the battery heats.

    But half the rate after 1 charge is over cautious. It should only limit that much if your battery temp is nearing the red.
     
  22. IronGiant

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    Well it's a good job you have us honest EV owners to advise you then :thumbsup: I'm not sure how much of an issue this will be in real life, it depends on what you want to use it for. In nearly a year, we haven't used a fast charger once. And if we did need to it would never be more than once a day, or after a reasonable lay over.

    What do you want a Leaf for dejongj?
     
  23. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Primarily for the (too) many trips in and out of town, but also a number of longer runs say to the New Forest or Suffolk Coast etc. More a case of dipping our toe into full EV and I really like the specification (and price).

    I'd suggest a fast charge is rather important on a longer run. And I'd need more than one.
     
  24. IronGiant

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    So you head for Suffolk. Get a fast charge on the way, Milton Keynes maybe?. Have a nice time at the Coast, and get a fast charge on the way home in MK again. No problem.

    The issue only affects people doing a maxxed out trip, fast charge, maxxed out trip, fast charge in a single run before getting to their destination.

    e.g. If you want to go to Caithness in a single day and need to charge many times along the way.
     
  25. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Aha...So it's a potential problem if you wanted to drive down to Spain in one go...Like we used to do with the children when they were young and drive through the night leave the engine running, swap every two hours and fill it up and go again...

    Too confusing this stuff, can't they put a V8 ICE in it :p
     
  26. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    But for anything other than a car with proper battery conditioning that is not something these mass market cars are designed for at the moment. If that is once a year then hire an ICE for the holiday. If you have a day where you travel a total of around 100 miles or less on the commute and shopping and kids runs, the new Leaf would be a good fit with the 7KW charger every night. The long runs with multiple rapid charges are very occasional by design and technology (and price) at the moment but the leap to an EV seems to be reliant on people looking at their driving habits and needs realistically over the whole year. As a second car for those that have two now i would imagine they fit over 90% of those people’s needs. A few need two long haul cars ‘all the time’ but I doubt it is as many as those that actually don’t.

    It sounds like many are close to the leap with this size of battery and level of battery management. As you say @dejongj the price is attractive so Nissan are nearly there to tap into the big market that are worried by range for them. Here in Canberra unfortunately only a Tesla gets close to what we need for one car. I could afford one but that would end in castration for me
     
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  27. gangzoom

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    @dejongj I woudlnt treat the current Leaf as anything more than a city run around, but with more range than the previous car.

    Tesla aside all the current EVs really are a major headache for intercity travel, even without a overheating battery the Ecotricity chargers are just too slow - 40KW in real life compared to 100KW+ for Tesla superchargers.

    Tesla battery packs can overheat but I'v never seen a report of them overheating from rapid charging.

    As a first step into the EV world the Leaf is a great choice, if nothing based on the low cost of entry alone......But if you want a ture combustion car replacement Tesla is still the only game in town. Even the up and coming iPace will be hampered by the rubbish 'rapid' charging network at present.
     
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  28. outoftheknow

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    And that is the other issue - connecting a Leaf to a 100KW charger will not charge it 2.5 times faster. The cars have battery charging management that suits the battery pack and the conditioning of it. Those suggesting Tesla open their superchargers up to all may be missing that point - their EV will charge at the maximum rate their manufacturer has allowed.

    If general public 60Kw or higher chargers become available each manufacturer will need to decide how much (if any) eaxtra juice they will allow your car to take - even for short periods. The vast majority will be unable to allow any more - the car/battery is designed on a knife edge already. They cannot afford to have even one customer actually kill a battery pack in 5-8 years. They need to balance a clear public demand with reality - but they are in for the long haul and make increnatal adjustments as costs fall and technology improves.

    Chargers can deliver almost as much as you want. As long as the juice is around nearby. There is no point rolling out massive capacity chargers for the masses if none of the (mass produced) car batteries are able to use the full capacity.

    As @gangzoom says these are all run arounds at the moment and although some take the time to plan (and execute) long trips (@Gordon @ Convergent AV :) and I’m sure I read an overheating battery issue in your excellent thread with multiple rapid charges? ) the fact is if that is your needs every day to jump in and go more than 100-150 miles total in the day without thinking about it, these are not quite ready to be the car for you.
     
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  29. outoftheknow

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    Just to clarify apart from range, a major reason we don’t have an EV at the moment (my GF could get by with one around the 40KW mark as our second car) is there aren’t any on sale here anymore except the Tesla. Various have tried but the small ranges meant uptake was tiny. The new Leaf and the latest Zoe are probably getting close to sellable as a second car here. Maybe in 4 years when the GFs Corolla hybrid lease is up......
     
  30. gangzoom

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    I should say though the 40kWh Leaf will still do 90% if journys most people do daily with no issues. I've put 15K on the Tesla in the last 12 months, my wifes Lexus just 5K. Yet I've only used the Supercharger less than a dozen times, if you have a second car in the family for occasional long trips the Leaf will fit in with no issues :).
     

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