Leaf II announcement due tomorrow, who's waiting up?

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by DrPhil, Sep 5, 2017.

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  1. Chester

    Chester
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    Yeah, manual gearboxes have been optioned up to autos in increasing numbers for some time, for sure throughout this decade to the point where so many vehicles don't even have a manual option. I see track days with manual cars becoming quite popular in the period between say 2020 and 2040, or perhaps until a new generation don't even see the point of being able to drive any more.

    Tell you what I was actually hoping for, because the concept lent itself to this a bit: a 3-door Leaf coupe with a hatch rear. Most of the sportiness and practicality of my E81 130i but in an EV. But as I said, I think we're a few years away from this which would be the most ideal for me, and I'd love Nissan to make that car, especially as there are more Nismo projects then ever before. We'll see...
     
  2. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    To be honest I don't see the point of a manual; just a shame of the license restrictions. Our Nissan Murano had artificial gears introduced. Never used them.

    I like your idea of for a Leaf coupe....Or how about an electric 370 ;)
     
  3. Chester

    Chester
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    Maybe that would work for some, but not practical enough for me. One of my favourite cars is the Ferrari GTC Lusso. 4 seats and a usable boot, but it's complete sky pie at £280K! But if you've been following the electic Evora on Speed Academy, you'll know that a really exciting sporty EV in compact form is certainly obtainable. Nissan could steal the march if it was bold enough with a Leaf Coupe Nismo. I'd be falling over my own feet to get one!

    However I think it's far more likely to see an e-Qashqai first. :(
     
  4. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Did I see it correct that the top speed is only 87mph? Seriously? So the leaf is just a city car?
     
  5. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    The national speed limit is 70mph, and itll get to 70mph as quick as any family hatch back ;).

    The reason for the lowish topspeed is due to lack of battery pack energy, at 87mph the Leaf will have ALOT less range than advertised maybe as much as 50% less.

    The Leaf also uses Permanent Magenet Motor which is more efficent than a induction motor (used by Tesla), but limited by overheating if you push the power output too high.
     
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  6. IronGiant

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    I think it's fair to say that an electric motor doesn't run out of puff in the same way as an ICE, so if it's top speed is 87, it will comfortably do 85, I'd say all day long, but it's range at that speed makes it unlikely :D
     
  7. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Hmmmm that is actually a big negative for us :(
     
  8. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    I'm not sure I'd want to take a little car like a Leaf on the AutoBahn anyway. If you're looking to replace a big fast German car with an electric "equivelant" then a small Japanese hatchback probably isn't for you. If you were looking to part exchange an M5, you wouldn't be looking at a 1.2L Micra would you?
     
  9. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    It would also take quite an effort to get one there in the first place, and than your be looking for a charger every 50 miles if you drive at vMax of the Leaf!
     
  10. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Isn’t it Golf sized?
     
  11. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Probably, I was exaggerating a little :) but my point is it's not pretending to be a Gti, AMG or RS beater: after all it does only have a 107 bhp engine, albeit it's torque is available pretty much across the whole rpm range.
     
  12. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    I enjoy my speed and I've never felt limited in the Leaf. I've pushed it as high as 92 on the speedometer although I know it overestimate by a fair bit.
     
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  13. Chester

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    I'm sorry but I just don't believe you. 0-60 in over 11 seconds in the old Leaf? I class anything over 10 as dangerous in a similar way that I would class slow motorcycles as dangerous: you can't get away from trouble. I'm used to 7.5 in the wife's car and 6 in mine; sub 8.5 would be ample and the rest is for fun.

    To substantiate this and also to say that it's highly obtainable, BMW's i3 is the fastest accelerating of all BMWs (including all M cars) up to 37 MPH.

    Top speed I sort of agree. I want some headroom, so 100MPH is useful, but any more would be a total waste. I'd rather have response, and taller gearing in the motor would use more energy to accelerate anyway which is counter productive for range of course.

    I also class the speedo as dangerous too. Over estimating by 10%? In a world of cruise control and SPECS cameras, 54MPH in a 60 would be down right infuriating for some. Objectively it's seriously impeding progress by the same amount. The industry seems to have latched on to 5% so why Nissan have chosen to do this, I'm not sure, but I believe it can only be to massage the Leaf's stats in their favour.

    Back to performance in the new Leaf, I think the power works out to around 145BHP, so hopefully we're looking at around say 7-8 seconds 0-60. That's ample for most; I'd like a little bit more punch though. Like I said, maybe the MkIII will be the one to wait for.
     
  14. DrPhil

    DrPhil
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    Lol, don't believe what?

    Ps I believe the 0-60 is actually 9.4 but from 0-30 it will beat most cars
     
  15. Chester

    Chester
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    That it's quick enough; on the road 'in-gear acceleration', or say a 40-70MPH is much more relevant anyway. The 11 second figure was from Parkers (actually 11.1), but since I checked there, other sites do suggest sub 10 second figures, and for the same motor output, I really don't know how that's possible.
     
  16. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Nissan's figures suggest north of 11...But I agree it is not something you do all the time...

    I'm just surprised that with the low top speed and the acceleration it seem behind the competition...
     
  17. mikeburns

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    my LEAF would limit at exactly 100MPH!
     
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  18. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Just been on a 500 miles 6hr long road trip in the US, around NewJersy. Saw a total of only 5 EVs on the whole trip!!!

    This has made me even more determined to ensure I can spread the message of EVs to everyone and anyone I know.

    But first I need to get my own house in order and go fully electric. That means persuading my wife to ditch the Lexus. Currently am working on a plan of convincing her to take the Tesla as her 'daily' car.

    If successful it will ofcourse mean I will need a new car, am still waiting on the Model 3 UK pricing so in the meantime if Nissan can replicate the PCP deal I had with my old 24kWh Leaf for the new 40kWh car I would happly sign up for another 2 years.

    Living with two EVs really would be another step change from always having a combustion car as a back up......but I cannot wait to try it!!!

    Now the problem is persuading my wife to drive the Tesla daily is surprisingly hard :(.
     
  19. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    I had a 380bhp at the wheels dyno proven BMW 335i before the Leaf.

    In 14k of owning the Leaf I never had an issue with lack ot speed, for public road usage its perfectly fine. I only wish it had more range.
     
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  20. Chester

    Chester
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    @dejongj Really? The Nissan Leaf was launched in December 2010. Actually I can't believe it was that long ago! Nevertheless it took a while until we saw it over here, path of the course, and for 2010 technology, I think it's pretty good. It has never generated any stirring sensations for me! Forward wind to the Leaf 2, I'm guessing we'll see it in around a year's time on the road here, and a genuine 7 years between the technologies used. Now for me it hasn't moved along 7 years because EV technology is moving on at such a huge rate. But as I said before, being so early in the world EV programme has obviously cost them a fortune in R&D, so they'll need to claw that back with the Leaf 2.

    If we see genuine good range and reasonable everyday performance (and that speedo could be recalibrated!), yeah, with the discounts some people are getting, it makes perfect common sense motoring to me. But if you aspire to have some performance, then Nissan better keep an eye over its shoulder because the rest of the world isn't exactly catching up; they will already be on curve at launch whilst the Leaf 2 falls behind. Having said that, I don't think Nissan's got much too worry about with the VW group in the States!
     
  21. Chester

    Chester
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    Oh come on! 380 brake at the wheels, so about 420BHP+ at the crank, and comparable weight (slightly heavier than a Leaf), the Leaf wouldn't see which way a 335i went! What you're suggesting makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. The BMW has more than 3 times the power to weight, and I reckon a 0-100 time quicker than the Leaf can get to 60. It's a different world!

    I think what you're actually saying is that you find EV driving so sublime, you don't need performance any more. Would that be fair?
     
  22. IronGiant

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    I think he's pointing out that he's no stranger to performance cars, but despite that, he wasn't disappointed with the Leaf, not that they are comparable. In contrast we went from a 1.6 Scenic (108 bhp so almost exactly the same power*) and the difference between that and the Leaf is astonishing, in a good way :clap:


    * when new :)
     
  23. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Yes your right, but also no one actually needs anything with more than 100bhp on public roads. The Leaf is more than quick enough for every day use. I'll happily swap my X for Leaf (5 second 0-60 time despite weighing 2.5 tons), if it means we can to a full EV household ASAP.

    The difference between need and want is very different :).
     
  24. Chester

    Chester
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    Yes, can quite believe it having driven a Scenic 1.6 myself. 108 brake you say? Mmm felt more like it was getting towed! I also realise the big difference with electric is all the torque is available from nothing. Stark contrast in my current car where I have to wait until about 4'200RPM until Valvetronic kicks in.

    Having driven an i3, an i8 (in all modes including electric only), and riding shotgun in a 75D, I have a real appreciation for what's on offer and I can't wait until it's affordable for my wife and I. The i3 is genuinely quick enough for just about any situation on the road, I just don't like the way it rides as it feels very top heavy and doesn't handle it's weight in the twisties that well, but that's not what it's for. My wife would really love a kind of Mazda MX-5e, or even a Benz SLCe, and range is no problem there either. As long as one of our cars has some range, it doesn't matter.

    @gangzoom@ I know what you're saying about need and want. I find myself so conflicted here, mainly because of my experience as written above. I know it's possible to eat that cake, and we only live once. ;)
     
  25. gangzoom

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    Have a go in a P100D :).

    For me its about not wanting to waste a single penny on any kind of combustion car ever again. The future is already here, so why make do with past?

    If that means having another Leaf for 2 year untill the P version of the Model 3 is ready that will do me fine, the Leaf is perfectly good as a family car providing you understand the range limits.
     
  26. Chester

    Chester
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    @gangzoom Yeah, I can imagine it feels even more mind bending than a 911 Turbo S! But the owner of the 75D made a good point: it's recently been software upgraded to do 0-60 in 4 seconds where it was 5 (can you believe that! A software update! Crazy). He had a P100D courtesy car and felt that in real on-road terms, it made no difference at all, because we're talking just over a second more and you're up to road speed from a stand still, an he didn't really notice any worthwhile difference in overtaking.

    So yeah, I'd love to have a go at Santa Pod, but even my thirst for power is more than quenched with a 75D; but sadly that's not obtainable for me. Love that car. :(
     
  27. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    And that is the point - the power available and the torque available at any given ICE or electric motor rotational speed are very different. A perceived lack of acceleration is not fixed by more power in an EV. Torque available is basically controlled by the speed control signal in an EV. From any point including zero if you want maximum acceleration from an EV motor you simply apply the desired increased speed signal instantly and physics willing the electric motor will strive to get there 'instantly'. Torque available is pretty much the maximum the motor can deliver. Since massive acceleration is not a base requirement for a Leaf from a manufacturers point of view, they decide what is sufficient. They add a control on the rate a speed increase signal is applied.

    If you are already doing 40mph the power output will be whatever it is to maintain that speed. Having 400 more hp doesn't help in any way to get to 70mph more quickly. As above controlling how quickly the increased signal is applied to an electric motor will determine how fast the acceleration to the inputted speed will be. Input the signal for 70mph and off it goes. The torque is again the maximum available and doesn't depend on the current rotational speed as to what is available.
     
  28. Chester

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    @outoftheknow Thanks for the physics lesson there, but I'm afraid it doesn't matter a jot what type of propulsion system is used during acceleration: More torque at the wheels, assuming the traction is available, equals more acceleration. There is no perceived lack of acceleration in the original Leaf as we've established the thing is slow, with statistics. What we have also subjectively established is for some owners, this doesn't amount to a problem for them. As for sending accelerator signals or 'drive-by-wire', we've had this in fossil fuel vehicles for decades, so I'm not sure what that part was about.

    Your 40 to 70 analogy seemed to be pinned on response times, and I agree in some respects this is important and useful. Take just about any turbo charged car approaching a roundabout at around 1'000RPM engine speed in say 2nd gear, spot a gap and apply the throttle and nothing happens until in some powerful cars the gap has tightened, there's some steering lock on, the boost kicks in and tries to destroy the tyres whilst rotating the car uncontrollably, and it's up to the driver or stability control systems to reign the car back into control . Not been there? It's damn frustrating let me tell you! Find a private road to deliberately provoke this sensation of course! Some automatic transmission cars are even worse in these situations in drive as they fumble for a few seconds for the right gear, and then the car lurches forward. EVs have no such problems with all of the power available (again assuming traction is available) in less than a few 10ths of a second. It's not instant as some people may believe, especially when coming out of re-gen.

    As for the 40-60/70 single carraigeway over take, my wife's car will be far more effective than a Leaf, overtaking in a shorter time and therefore safer. It's simply a matter of power to weight. This is the single most important objective reason to have 'enough' power.

    And as already established, more torque than this is a case of want rather than need, and I firmly believe that when pressed, the majority do want more, just not at the sacrifice of the tight range that's on offer today in affordable EVs. Other manufacturers have proven you can have it all, currently with an impact on cost or range, or both.

    My belief is the Leaf 2 will be ample for most, but does it have more?
     
  29. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    The fact is though that those who want sub 8 second 0-60 times won't buy a Leaf. Nissan will know this and will offer what they are faulty sure their required number of potential customers will be happy with. To have more is likely to mean some upgrades around the motor and getting the torque and power i Glt be road. Cost of that versus potential customer base who are happy with 'slow' will decide how much it (or Leaf III) has to give.
     
  30. IronGiant

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    Don't forget there is an element of performance control, although it's in the wrong direction: Economy Mode. :laugh: I've tried it once and it was painful. As Chester mentioned I wouldn't want to try and overtake on a single carriageway road in Eco. I've not tried it enough to see if it disengages if you welly it, but I can't see us using it unless we are desperate. Maybe as bigger batteries become available, with the promised more powerful motors then they will get a sportier mode too, like other manufacturers offer. In fact that's my only real criticism, I'd like a bit more control over power train management. The Leaf (1 gen anyway) has eco, regen or normal and that's it. Am I right that the Ioniq allows rather more control? (I know the T range do, obviously :devil:)
     

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