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Lcd's,Dlp's Rainbows and Stuff

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by ELV, Nov 4, 2004.

  1. ELV

    ELV
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    Hello all,
    Well i finally got to demo a couple of projectors at Carlisle the other day and although i haven't made my mind up which one i do think i'm comming down in the Lcd camp, the two i demoed were Sony HS20 and the Screenplay 4805.Firstly i must stress that i went into it with a totally open mind after reading all the pros and cons on here.The first one i looked at was the HS20 and i could,nt beleive how good the picture was, pretty good black and no screen door and no VB, and i was looking for it. Spent a good 30 mins with it and a couple of discs, pretty dark ones as advised. all in all well impressed!!
    Next 4805, Arghhh Rainbows, :eek: virtually ever scene i was seeing them, picture was a bit softer to, although i'm not sure if this was down to the set up but i did have a play and could'nt get it any better, all in all very dissapointed with the rainbows after reading about the 6 segment wheel and all!!!!
    Iv'e got a couple of questions though and would appreciate youre thoughts
    1)How does the HS20 picture compare to the likes of the Panny 700 or the Z3? Has anyone compared them as the Hs20 is slightly over budget even though Ben has it for about 1.5k, and alas no lens shift which i would benefit from.
    Oh and it's big too.

    2) Is Rainbow Effect set up dependent? Because i do seem to be very suceptible to it as did the guy in the shop who said he'd never seen it before and now can't stop seeing it.

    All in all very impressed with the LCD :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  2. Jules

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    Hi ELV.

    Firstly, I'm going to shamelessly plug my nearly new HS20 which I've just placed in the classifieds section. :D
    Secondly, The HS20 has a higher resolution panel than the AE700 and sreen door is a non entity. It doesn't suffer from VB, and the 'real world' contrast is probably about the same, simply because the auto iris in the Panasonic cannot achieve the quoted contrast ratio in a single field.... bit of con really I think.

    As for DLP rainbows....I see them. If I don't see them, I get a headache about 20 mins into viewing, so DLP projectors would never have been ok for me.
    A friend of mine has a recent Sim2 DLP, and no amount of tweaking seems to prevent the effect. That's just me though.
    Basically, if you are affected by rainbows as much as I am then LCD is the only option.

    I have to admit, that if I was buying a new projector again... I might consider the iminent Sony HS50... probably available for around £1900 when its released.
    However, its LCD panels are lower resolution than the HS20 and it tries the same trick as the Panasonic to achieve the improved constrast ratio figures.

    Still, if you can afford the £1900... and DLP is out of the question.... then the HS50 might be worth waiting for.
     
  3. KraGorn

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    Not really, if you know the cause of it then you'll see that the effect is a result of how the technology works and thus presented with an image with bright highlights against a dark background the effect will always be present.

    My experience and that of many is that one soon becomes inured to it and now I consciously see them less than I did even though I know they must be there like they've always been. Of course you can only know if you will notice this reduction in susceptibility over time, which was probably 2 or 3 weeks in my case.
     
  4. LV426

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    I think rainbows are more person-dependent (for a given projector) than setup dependent.

    Whilst it may well be true that some marginally affected people will grow accustomed to the effect in time, it may well also be true that some won't. And the danger is, of course, that, if you (or any of your family, etc who will share your setup with you) are one of the latter, you've made a costly mistake. And you can't tell whether you are the former or the latter without trying it. Catch 22.

    As one who definitely does see them (and has been nauseated by them) I wouldn't take this particular risk. Instead, I choose to live with the shortcomings (less contrast) of LCD. And, as already stated, this is improving with every new model anyway, to the point where, now, it's probably a massive non-issue.

    Personally I think it's high time DLP manufacturers stopped tinkering with what (for those like me) is an inherently flawed approach (one chip, colour wheel) and started putting their efforts into getting true 3-chip DLP at a realistic retail price.
     
  5. KraGorn

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    :smashin:

    One thing I don't understand is the horrendous price difference. Given a 1-chip DLP can be had for, say, £2K how come you can't get a 3-chip one for £6k .. maybe a little simplistic perhaps but basically the price difference at present is absurd, is there any technical basis or is it just charging what they can get away with?
     
  6. theritz

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    Nope, not simplistic at all....................

    Got it in one I reckon - I imagine there are additional licensing costs to TI, and you have to buy three DMDs instead of one, but effectively I reckon this is a case of market pricing - setting the price at a level that the market will bear.

    There was a recent interesting comment in the thread about the new Themescene/optoma/whatever RPTV based on HD2 chip, contracting the price of the whole TV with the price of a HD2 projector - again a case of pricing at market levels; I don't think anyone would price a TV at the price of a HD2 projector....

    Sean.
     
  7. LV426

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    Yep, that's the only logic I can see in it.

    You can buy a very good (within the limitations of the technology) 3-chip LCD projector for - what - about GBP2k. It has:

    video processing (scaler)
    lamp
    lens
    prism and dichroic filters to split and merge the light source

    etc etc.

    Take a 1-chip DLP; remove the colour wheel and its motor and anything needed to synchronise the chip and wheel; and replace it with 2 more DMDs and (more or less) the same prism and dichroic filters as an LCD.

    The price diference should only be (more or less) the difference in cost + markup between 3x LCD chips and 3 x DMDs. There's no way I can believe that this equates to about GBP20k.

    Given that you can buy, retail, a basic one-chip DLP item for (say) GBP2k and an LCD for, say, GBP1k, then, even at a worst possible case that the DMD or LCD is 100% of the cost of the projector and all the other stuff is "free" - this works out at a price differential for this theoretical 3-chip DLP (over an equivalent LCD) of just 3k. Nobody is likely to convince me that any required difference in optics adds another (say) 15k to this figure.
     
  8. JJM

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    Anyone tried out DLP with B&W movies? Heck of a shock for me: the rainbows *leapt* out of the screen. It was much, much more of a headache than with colour movies.

    -JJM
     
  9. KraGorn

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    Strange, I watched Van Helsing last night and after the suggestion in this thread I made a point of trying to see if I could see them during the opening B&W sequence and I barely noticed them.
     
  10. JJM

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    I only had a chance to demo one B&W movie at the end of a try out: The Criterion edition of "8 1/2" - R1, NTSC, 16x9. The projecter was an Infocus Screenplay (I think) - the rainbows were so bad I didn't care to remember too much about the model afterwards. Waiting to try out an LCD.

    -JJM
     
  11. El Indio

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    Neither. You have to consider marketing.

    To the dumb punter rainbows are a non (known about) issue. DLP projectors / tv's are selling big time because they are much smaller units and their picture 'pops' when viewed in the local TV store. The one chip also means they can have price parity (or even better) then LCD.

    The market for 'moaners' is too small to consider producing 3 DLP chip pjs. It would also hurt marketing. Imaging the conversation in a shop:
    Punter: "Why does that model cost £1000 more?"
    Assistant: "Because it has 3 DLPs"
    Punter: "The picture looks the same to me, why do I need it?"
    Assisant: "So you dont see rainbows"
    Punter: "Whats a rainbow?"
     
  12. ELV

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    Thanks for the replys guys, as iv'e said i realy could'nt get over just how bad the rainbows are and have to admit as has been said that they are possibly thinking of the market that isn't aware of the problem so does'nt paticularly see it, the problem i have now is which lcd, it's gotta have lens shift so it narrows it down, iv'e been put off the 700 due to the vb issues and the z3 was looking good but i'm a bit concerned now about the purple haze on the right a few are mentioning but i'll just have to have a look at one and make my own mind up i guess!!!
     
  13. homerdog

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    When I first got my DLP, I noticed the rainbows all the time. I was looking for them because I had read about it on here. Now, 14 months later, I can't remember the last time I noticed one. I think that I have got used to them, but I don't look for them any more either, which also helps.

    Out of interest, I've never mentioned them to others who have watched films on it and none of them has noticed!
     
  14. ELV

    ELV
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    All things taken i agree with what your saying regarding don't see them if you don't look for them, but i was seeing them all the time even when i was concentrating on the films, but this was as i said my first proper demo of the different projectors and i went armed with the knowledge of these forums, maybey i would'nt have seen them if i had'nt read about them and that's probally one of the downsides of reading all these threads, I'm thinking of trying the Z3 next and maybey the Vb issue will rear it's head and then i'll probally be back to square one......... :confused:

    P.S Anyone in Cumbria available for a demo of the 700 or Z3??? :D
     
  15. LV426

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    I think the core problem with any experience detailed here, or advice given, is that each and every person has a different level of sensitivity to the rainbow issue.

    One person will never see them.
    The next may see them occasionally and/or may become accustomed to, and able to ignore, the effect.
    And the next will find it an ongoing issue.

    You can only work out which of these you are by your own experience - not that of others whose perception almost certainly will differ from your own.

    And, there isn't a power on this earth, that can enable someone who is affected communicate the extent of the issue to someone who isn't.
     

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