LCD motion blur fix?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by 097263, Mar 9, 2006.

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  1. 097263

    097263
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    Which of these technologies is going to fix the LCD motion blur problem?

    - Clear LCD by Philips
    - HD content
    - Improved picture processing
    - Faster response screens

    or is it an amalgamation of all these?
     
  2. lance23

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    I think the only way to fix it 100% is to get HDTV!
     
  3. rik1471

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    I thought HD was just improved resolution, isn't motion blur down to the refresh rate of the screen?
     
  4. blakey1

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    Not sure how much HD will fix this I think if anything the extra pixels would make it worse. I think its the bitrates used that causes the blur fuzz effect on LCD's. HDTV will improve due to the high bitrates used but I'm not sure it will fully fix it.

    Ive seen clips of the Champions league Final and some American football on via Premier HD Demos and you could see some fuzz and blurring on the fast moving images.
     
  5. funcky

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    I don't think motion blur is much of a prob on the better lcds, this was my biggest worry when considering an lcd, its the motion smear that needs smoothing out imo. This is can be worse or better than a 100hz crt depending on the source. Also depends how sensitive u are to these issues, guess some people are affected more than others for eg some people can't stand 50hz flickers or rainbows on rear pros, while others just can't see them.
     
  6. Ramspeed

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    As funcky points out motion 'blur' (trailing effects and ghosting) is no longer really an issue with LCD's. Motion 'smearing' is another matter. This can best be described as a form of smudging or smearing of the lines when the camera (in either movies or video games) pans or moves left to right quickly. I have a Sony V32 (with a claimed response time of 8ms) and can report that it is noticeable. But only a little. Many people would not notice it at all (my wife and brother don't). Personally, though I am sesitive to these things, I'm not too bothered. It's certainly no worse than the DRC picture processing on my Sony CRT (which I can't turn off). HD content or really well mastered DVD's appear to lessen the effect but maybe that's just psychological. As do games @ 60fps rather than 30.

    But to answer the original question. It will indeed be an amalgam solution.
    1. ClearLCD will help (and competing scanning backlight solutions from other companies)
    2. Lower response times (6ms/4ms) will help too but not as much as you would think.
    3.Better picture processing - more important than you think. Just look at Panasonic 50/52/500 range. Regarded as the best handlers of motion out there - but with a slow response time of 14ms.
    4. HD content means that the TV is doing less scaling which always helps. But really it just looks so marvellous you don't notice the slight smearing. I barely notice it playing games @ 720p on my X360.

    So despite the very minor niggles with smearing I'd say now was a good time to buy. Main contenders - new Panasonic 60/600 series, new JVC DS7 series, new SonyV/X series out this month, Philips ClearLCD series when it finally arrives later this year.

    Happy hunting y'all!
     
  7. riesgo

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    I'm afraid I strongly disagree with Ramspeed in just about everything he said :rotfl:

    For starters I find motion blur to be a major issue in every lcd I have seen. As anyone who has xbox 360 (which is HD by the way) can testify whenever you pan the camera around in any game you automatically loose all the benefits of 1366*768 resolution as all the fine details turn into a blurred mess.. until you fix the camera again.

    Of the proposed solutions the only ones that hold promise are clear lcd and reduced response times.

    HD content is just as affected by motion blur as SD stuff

    picture processing is good for things such as as noise reduction for SD television, but it can hardly do anything against motion blur. Besides, it means the signal is delayed for some time as a given amount of frames are buffered inside the TV and then processed before being output to the screen, that is totally unacceptable for gaming use where reponse time and reflexes are important.

    I think picture processing has no place where HD is concerned. Component, HDMI and VGA signals should be gorgeous without the need of aditional filters or other processing, and in most cases they are.

    Personally, I trust more the brands which place more enfasis in the raw quality of their panels (like Sharp with their Aquos line) than the ones that put all their faith in a lot of digital mumbo-jumbo (like JVC or Philips with their Pixel Plus, DIST, Clear Lcd and what not)
     
  8. Dogboats

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    Clear LCD is designed to reduce the "sample and hold" effect that is caused by LCD pixels staying switched on for the entire duration of the frame. "Sample and hold" creates a severe juddering effect on moving images on LCDs - even for HD signals.

    CRT doesn't suffer from this as its screen phosphors flash (not hold) when scanned by an electron beam and your brain interprets this as smooth movement.

    Clear LCD attemps to fix this by flashing the backlight for a just part of the screen at the time the pixels are updated and by making up for the shorter lit duration by boosting the output levels of the lamps.

    Many people think that the technology that will really crack this is SED (Surface Emitting Display) which is a bit like having a screen with 2 million CRTs embedded in it.

    Sorry for the lecture! :lesson:
     
  9. gavan

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    Improved picture processing. Most of the 'blurring' problems seem to be caused by poor deinterlacing in the sets. Prog scan signals over component from my Xbox (video material and games) look pin sharp compared to the same source via interlaced s-video or RGB.

    Pixel response time is already good enough to elimiate 'ghosting' from that quarter.


    Gav
     
  10. jckm2000

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    Hi,
    I notice a little (and I mean a little) blur on bad feeds from poor channels on my Goodmans freeview box. I see no blur when viewing the same channels on freeview through my PC and none whatso ever when watching High def material from the PC. My set is an LG RZ-37LZ31

    Jon.
     
  11. Ramspeed

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    Riesgo...

    I'm not sure what LCD's you've been using with your X360 but to say that my Sony V32 produces a mess when panning around would be a gross exaggeration. The effect is minimal. There are also demonstrable flaws in your argument. Take the case of the Samsung M51 and the Panasonic LX500.
    The Samsung uses an 8ms panel and blurs badly with movies and games. The Panasonic uses a 14ms panel and blurs considerably less with all sources. I know - I tested them both. The reason is that the tech that drives the panels is far superior in the Panny.

    LCD's are inherently flawed in that they will produce a certain amount of smearing with fast movement. It's the 'sample and hold effect' already mentioned. How much it smears is no longer down to response rate. It's down to the processing engine. This clearly helps to realise the maximum potential of the panel. Beyond that there is ClearLCD and other backlight scanning solutions. They will help. It is an issue that wil never be fully resolved but for most people it will not matter. The current genreation (2006) of LCD's have reached a point that will satisfy the vast majority of people. Myself included.
     
  12. riesgo

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    Sorry, but I don't believe at all in most of the 8 ms claims out there. I've seen tests on line which measure the effective response time as a function of color intensity, and in one of them by Tom's Hardware both the Samsung and the Sony were much above 8 ms. Samsung with a maximum of nearly 30 ms response time and the Sony having a maximum of ,unbelievably , 50 ms!! Sharp, on the other hand claims 14, 12 ms and it showed to be the fastest of them all, with max 16 ms, minimum of 6 ms. There was no Panasonic, but it is also possible its panel is also much better than Samsungs in practice (the links to this tests are on another thread by the way)
     
  13. steventucker

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    Option 5 - Get a plama! (if you want a screen over 32")

    I did have a 40" Sony V40 (refunded) now have Panasonic PV500 and can say the Panasonic is in another class. No regrets.:thumbsup:

    Response rates are not a problem with plasma and therefore no motion smearing. Forget the hype about screen burn.
     
  14. Smith2004

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    I have the Philips 37PF9830 and motion blur is only ocasionally noticeable low bitrate broadcasts. Auf...Pet on Men and Motors (via Freeview) is effected by it.
     
  15. Ramspeed

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    Riesgo

    I'm happy to accept those findings. In fact they make my point. It is more than possible that Sharp have the fastest panels. But look at the forums, look at the reviews. The Panasonics (and some others) have been far better received than the Sharps in recent months. And I've checked them out myself. There's no doubt that the latest Sharps are a worse culprit for motion smearing than, say, the Panny 500. The Sharp has a much faster panel. Therefore, the superior performance of the Panny must be down to far superior processing. You see my point?
     
  16. riesgo

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    Actually, my point was that since panels which claim 8 ms are shown in real tests to be much slower than others which claim higher times (like both the Sharp and the Panasonic) it is possible that Panasonic panels are very good and the main reason why Panasonic TVs don't have much blurring and/or smearing :rotfl:

    Also, I believe you judge lcds mainly from a tv/dvd viewer perspective while I do it from a gamer's perspective, am I right? ;)

    Since I only ever use 720p through component or 1366*768 through VGA, to me motion smearing is a non issue and picture processing a much unwanted (and largely unneeded) delay. Processing should only come into play to improve interlaced, poor quality signals, not to disguise the panel's contrast/responsiveness shortcommings.
     
  17. Teppic

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    The only recent LCD that i've tested and i've seen this on is a Sony S model. Every other LCD tv i've tested with games has shown next to no blurring or detail loss with panning camera movements (this includes a Samsung R51 with which i did a side by side test with the Sony). And this test was done using an original (not modified) Xbox via RGB scart, which should give the screens more blurring issues than a 360 connected via either component or VGA due to the processing of the picture required to display the interlaced source on a progressive screen.
     
  18. s3e3

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    Their are picture issues that people call motion blur , i would like to separate them if i can.

    Camera blur this happen before the picture/image leaves the cameras CCD so the older the program the more
    motion blur it my have ( e.g. very old Dr who footage) CCD blur can be compared to motion blur on a photograph.
    Hollywood movie blur = because the picture rate is so slow 24 picture a second , the camera is designed to
    have motion blur ,smudging anything with a high velocity

    Digital noise reduction older programs have been digitally cleaned ,witch if used to heavily can look like motion blur , More like ghosting , persistence of the previous picture
    (used more so now as adds mpeg compression )

    Digital compression Mpeg2 this look nothing like blurring but should be included as i read in earlier threads
    confusion with motion blur , when a mpeg2 encoder reaches its allowed bitrate, it has no other option but to
    fail to reproduces the picture accurately , the main visual artefacts are reduced detail (grass disappearing on a football pitch) and mosquito noise fast moving objects can get distorted by speckles and finally if the bitrate is really low
    fast objects lose all detail and go blocky.
    (this has nothing to do with you TV , its the broadcasters fault/greed)

    Digital conversion ( interlaced video to progressive )
    There are many ways to do this
    1 throw one picture away
    2 blend 2 together - as seen on small LCD tv's (this causes motion blurring effect)
    3 line doubling - this always looks better than the first to methods , and is a critical part to
    getting a good pictures from PAL & /NTSC programs (perhaps more important than the panels time)
    (please note this is nothing to do with movie to progress restoration 2:3 pulldown, in that situation
    the line doubling mode would turn off and convert to a 24fps mode)

    Lastly the LCD panel gets to add it imperfections to the final picture .
    The switching time of the panel can only be tested on Video games like the Xbox/360/ PS running
    at 720p as this bypass's ALL previous mention imperfections and supplies the LCD panel
    with a 60fps source that no other equipment can offer.
     

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