Answered LCD front end panel and identifying LED backend

Roxette

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With the advent of "HDR" becoming more common, and my interest in upgrading one of the rooms from a 32" Toshiba LCD (pretty old now- 720p, no USB support, no networking or OS), I get nervous about the lack of uniformity and linear terminology that manufacturers use.

For example on LG's Ultra HD 4K models, the lower numbered range, such as UJ630/UJ670 series, is said to have a LED IPS panel (their words). Meanwhile higher ranged sets, or competitors selling products in the same market space, state that their panel is LCD.

I am to understand that you want LCD for the panel(not sure you have a choice? unless they mean the finer point of IPS with 8+2) and LED backlighting with dimming (as opposed to edge lit, or backlighting on it 's own).

I struggle to know if for instance LG's 2017 "LED" are the right backlighting. Their tech specs seem to do little to help indicate what type of backlighting it actually is.

We appreciate getting a 45-50" 4k with HDR, and LED backlight + dimming is most likely not going to happen for £400-500, though darned if I'd like to figure out exactly what I am buying before I open it and find out the hard way.
 
All TVs except OLED are LCDs backlit with LEDs.

LED TV, ULED TV, QLED TV, and so on are just marketing names for the latter.

Edge lit means the LEDs are arranged around the edges and bounced 90° to go through the screen while direct lit means the LEDs are directly behind the screen.

They're both forms of backlighting as the light travels through the LCD from the back. It's just how the individual lights are arranged before the light goes into the diffuser to even it out and then the LCD panel to produce an image.

Local dimming is the ability of the backlight to have different brightnesses across the screen and is possible with both edge lit and direct lit backlights. The very best local dimming systems on TVs costing thousands are all direct lit but edge lit systems are competitive across much of the range. Something like the Sony XE93 is a very well regarded edge-lit local dimming system on a TV costing £1700 at 55"

Most TVs at sub-£500 don't posses local dimming, and those that do are ineffective. The cheapest worthwhile system is debatable, but you're certainly talking several hundred more. For your budget the backlight arrangement isn't important.

In terms of backlight, the thing to look at in your budget would be the colour gamut, as you might just be able to snag a wide gamut screen for £500 with a bit of luck.
 
I understand the technology, what I do not understand is the wide array of (sometimes misleading) marketing terminology, particularly for models within the same range of products.

Though thank you for confirming all modern LCD are LED backlit.

Do you have a suggestion for the UK market that carries the wide gamut?

EDIT: I found something helpful about LG's 4K UHD 2017 models(some of them at least).
They use “Direct” LED backlighting which is the full backlit though may not necessarily include local dimming, which for some manufacturers when the device has LED backlight + the dimming, it is listed as "full array."
Also for LG specifically, if it has Ultra Luminance, it should include local dimming and thus be a full array backlit.

In their Tech Specs, it is known as "BLU Type"



EDIT 2 :
55" UJ635 4k UHD / HDR and local dimming apparently, though without ‘ultra luminance’ not sure how that works...£549.
49" UJ650 4K UHD / HDR with 'ultra luminance' £499
49" UJ750 4k UHD / HDR with ‘ultra luminance' and dolby vision , £549.



Samsung and Sony seem out of budget in an apples to apples comparison.
Therefore it seems like a straight up fight between the 55" UJ635 and the 49" UJ750.
 
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The arrangement of where a TV has its LEDs isn't really that relevant until you hit higher range models which incorporate functional means of local dimming.

Unless we are talking about a TV like the Sony XE9005 then it isn't something that should be a consideration.

Manufacturers like to slap on buzz words to their products even when they are functional or in LGs case actually make matters worse. For example LGs "local dimming" even on their upper range LCDs is very poor and is actually better turned off in most cases.

It is safe to assume that at such a low budget you forget about the arrangement of LEDs behind the screen and any local dimming. The best you can get value wise at that price will be the TV that best matches your need for viewing angles compared to how well a TV performs in the dark.

For the record LG LCDs are usually not the best choice for critical viewing unless you need good viewing angles. Especially in the dark.

Edit* just read your second edit and I am pondering why you are only looking at LG models. Do you need wide viewing angles? What is your maximum budget? Maximum size?
 
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Hi Dodge,

£400-550 would be ideal. I can consider a 2016 model if they are not that much different.

Yes I heard that about LG regarding viewing versus angle.
IQ would be more important than angle for this room.

Size desired is 45-55" with UHD and HDR
 
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Size desired is 45-55" with UHD and HDR

Do you already know that HDR is different from HD, UHD etc in the sense that whilst many budget models are sold as "HDR TVs" all they do with the signal is accept and compress it to their limited capabilities.

To get an ample TV capable of displaying HDR at a decent level you are looking at at least £1000 for a 49" model.

HDR is not simply a feature one TV has that another does not. Unless you can spend the money on a more capable model you will likely find in many cases HDR only makes the PQ worse.

With your budget in mind I would keep an eye on models like the Hisense 55N6800 and 55XE70xx series come black friday. Those TVs appear to be closer to £650 now but hopefully Black Friday will mean we see better discounts.

If not, I would look at 50" instead. The best value at that size is the Hisense 50N6800, followed by the Samsung 50MU6100.

2016 models are hard to find now, they sold out mostly in the spring or summer of last year but if you do find any knocking about for a good price they may well be good value. Its been a while since I found a 2016 model new at a good price.
 
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The only 2016 LG that uses a VA type panel was the UH630v so that is the only model I would recommend unless you need wide viewing angles.

LG produce only IPS LCD panels so their models tend to use this kind, including all their 2017 range.
 
The models you mentioned via Hisense and Samsung. They boast the same 'HDR' 'HLG' etc. Will they not also be at risk of making IQ worse, like you suggested may happen with LGs?

The Hisense even state that their mid model(s) use edge lit instead of direct, indicating it's better ....yet at the same time, it is actually 8bit only.

Is the lack of 8+2 going to be noticeable these days. I do have a high dislike of color banding.

Another consideration for me is whether the television supports Google Play store(would like access to apps such as OpenVpn, Kodi etc).
 
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The models you mentioned via Hisense and Samsung. They boast the same 'HDR' 'HLG' etc. Will they not also be at risk of making IQ worse, like you suggested may happen with LGs?
At this price point HDR shouldn't be considered. It performs badly on all budget models. Aside from HDR though LG models use of IPS panels mean they let more light through the panel from behind. This results in bad screen uniformity, especially noticeable in dark conditions. It also makes for poorer blacks and worse contrast.

Its off topic but one of the reasons all the high end models that are capable of good HDR don't use IPS panels is because they simply cannot afford to with HDR setting the backlight to max.

The Hisense even state that their mid model(s) use edge lit instead of direct, indicating it's better ....yet at the same time, it is actually 8bit only.
Edge lit or direct lit only matters when you reach higher end models with functional local dimming.

Is the lack of 8+2 going to be noticeable these days. I do have a high dislike of color banding.
Not really when 90 percent of content is 8 bit anyway. You might see less banding on a 10 bit source. Bear in mind HDMI can't even send a 10 bit signal yet without performing chroma subsampling.

Another consideration for me is whether the television supports Google Play store(would like access to apps such as OpenVpn, Kodi etc).
If you need Android TV you will need to limit your choice to higher end Sony and Philips models. Its best having separate smart TV anyway.
 
Excellent Dodge.

Philips, I came across 50PUS6262, seems budget like the others though a fair option. I noted it makes no mention of Nextflix, Amazon and/or anything concerning GooglePlay. Possibly this one doesn't carry any of that.

In actuality all of this searching started because I wanted to change the media setup in that room. It currently uses a Dell Laptop(very capable spec), to stream mostly Kodi. However Kodi has intermittent success, the arrangement has a lack of a decent normal remote(IR models are hit and miss with the laptop) and it would be better to have something that was more turn on and go, rather than boot up like a normal PC.

I began looking at streaming boxes again, and ended up debating over Roku Ultra and Nvidia shield, yet between the base prices, plus some additional hardware and other bits, I considered I was halfway to the cost of a new television almost.

And since newer televisions come with (I am told) pretty strong OS and hardware to support that OS, that the streaming boxes are becoming less and less necessary, unless you really need PLEX or Kodi etc.

Next round of questions for this budget set range:

  1. Best OS/application depth(most apps, any support PLEX or Kodi other than high end Sony/Phillips)?
  2. Does the bluetooth capability have a menu to manually change audio output?
  3. Are the televisions powerful enough to push real 4k without issue, or is a stream box still the better option?

Thank you
 
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The Hisense even state that their mid model(s) use edge lit instead of direct, indicating it's better ....yet at the same time, it is actually 8bit only.

Is the lack of 8+2 going to be noticeable these days. I do have a high dislike of color banding.

As far as I'm aware everything that claims HDR supports dithering.

Another consideration for me is whether the television supports Google Play store(would like access to apps such as OpenVpn, Kodi etc).

The only TVs that support the google play store are Android TVs. And bear in mind they only show apps that specifically support TV inputs, most apps on the google play store are touchscreen only.

That's the Philips 64 and above models and the Sony 80 and above models (and last year's XD70).

TV platforms are very much designed for 'good enough' though, they definitely don't have anything that could be described as very strong hardware.

I think Kodi have only published Android versions of their application, but Plex also support LG WebOS and Samsung Tizen platforms in addition to Sony Opera and Sony/Philips Android.

Bluetooth on TVs doesn't even always support audio, sometimes it's only for input devices.

TVs have HEVC decoding hardware of course, so they should run common bit rates and formats well enough.
 
Is it fair to say then the considerations for budget 4K sets should be(no particular order) :

  • Size
  • Quality
  • Inputs(connections)
  • Internal OS/apps
  • WCG
  • IPS vs VA

In similar fashion to my original question and thread purpose, how does one easily identify if a television is using WCG?
 
They use different terminology depending on the manufacturer, check out the overview and best buy guides in my signature where i have done my best to categorise models based on this.
 
Thank you both. Dodge I read most of the articles/links twice now to be certain.


One thing I'll end with for now - I've used IPS panels in computer monitors for as along as they've been around, and as much as Nematic technology has improved, I still swear by IPS (even over VA).

Despite most computer viewing being straight on without the need for wide angles, it's that TN and some VA had such poor viewing angles, that even slouching in your chair or leaning slightly off center, meant a massive shift in color, contrast/brightness and uniformity. Even today, some top end TN monitors absolutely fail unless you sit like a robot - they're as bad as early 3D televisions that had a tiny sweet spot.

I also noted that IPS always had the best colors and yet over in the TV market, televisions always had better blacks, whether Plasma or LCD. I made the assumption that therefore between the inherent black levels of consumer televisions, combined with an IPS panel that you'd be getting great blacks, great colors and great viewing angles all in one.

Yet reading up on things as they are now, one would get the impression that IPS panels in televisions are good only if you have some acute scenario such as a large gathering of people sat around a room trying to view from sharp angles - much like Mario Lemieux trying to net a goal from some crazy angle on the goal line.

However, I am willing to lose some color/black levels if it means avoiding the awful viewing angles I've seen on anything that's not IPS. Which is what makes me cautious about getting an EX700 or Hisense 6800
 
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You are aware already in the fundamental differences between each panel type but also be aware the differences in requirements in general between your average TV buyer compared to monitor buyer.

First and foremost, the reason IPS is so highly regarded by computer monitor enthusiasts is for two reasns. A. Response time and B. Viewing angles. Compared to TN they also have the advantage of better colour saturation and accuracy too, but this is no different to VA.

A - Response time.
In the TV market where TVs due to other picture processing take up a significant amount of time the response time of a panel means a lot less. In fact so much so the TVs with the very best input lag and response time are often panels with VA panels. When you compare an average response time of a monitor compared to a TV though there is of course no competition. Monitors will always win but its this lack of picture processing that also leads for them to look a lot worse with video content.

B - Viewing angles
This is actually more of an issue for people who view very close to a screen. Anyone with a TN monitor or laptop will likely know what I mean. Being able to view the screen from any angle, particularly when up close can be a very nice benefit indeed. Of course this is probably even more important for a laptop than a monitor in a stationary position.

So in the world of computer monitors its very much IPS, IPS and IPS but still in many cases VA is a better technology.

With TVs, where response time is always going to be slower it doesn't matter that much using technology with a lower response times. Yes there are some TVs that have VA panels that are quite slow, but the difference is a lot smaller.

But the fundamentals of the technology remain the same. I wouldn't worry about response time on TVs so much for gaming because most are at the very worst average this year and for most people average is more than enough.

But everyone has different priorities and if you rate IPS tech preferable in your scenario then so be it. It gives you the info you need to make an informed purchase already I am sure.

My advice would be to demo these TVs in the flesh and see if you are one of the people that notices the famous "black trails" you hear about and see if you think TVs with IPS panels look better. Only when you view the TVs yourself will you know. I would say its probable that you will be fine with the EX700 or N6800 but everyone is different so I don't want to reassure you without you viewing the TVs in the first place.

Hope this helps.
 
Given that HDR may not be applicable at this budget range, are Toshiba televisions in the running?
Such as 55U5766DB?

Did Philips' 50PUS6262 not meet the cut as well?

Also, you kindly suggested the Sony XE70 series in your guide. Reviews say that the Hisense has better blacks, though the Sony beats it on color, motion and 4K upscaling.

Do you agree?
 
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Given that HDR may not be applicable at this budget range, are Toshiba televisions in the running?
Such as 55U5766DB?

Also, you kindly suggested the Sony XE70 series in your guide. Reviews say that the Hisense has better blacks, though the Sony beats it on color, motion and 4K upscaling.

Do you agree?

Toshiba TVs this year are made by Vestel, they don't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to quality so no.

Which reviews are you referring to with the Sony? The XE70xx has different panels at 43 & 49 to 55 and 65".

At 55" the Hisense 55N6800 and Sony 55XE70xx series are very similar. The Hisense has the edge with features as it has a wide colour gamut and freeview play whilst the Sony may offer slightly better colour accuracy out of the box. Some people say Sony's motion processing is better but I would probably keep it turned off on both TVs. Upscaling? I don't really notice Sony's being better than other manufacturers but some people swear by it.
 
Thanks.

The only mention I can see is "poor HDR black levels" but any TV of this price will have poor HDR black levels. Its got no kind of local dimming system so it can't block one part of the screen from being darker than another and with HDR the brightness is always ramped up to full..hence the problem. I don't think the Hisense will be any better in this respect really.

I don't think the blacks between the Sony and the Hisense models will be that pronounced, they are both using the same type of panel at that size and whilst I have no doubt there may be differences because the panels are probably manufactured by different companies the differences they found may just be acceptable margins between one of the same model and another...if you see what I mean.

To be honest I don't see the point in HDR support at all at this price range so I'm inclined to think if I was making the decision myself I would go for the Sony purely because I see having a wider colour gamut kind of pointless on a TV when I know I will be turning HDR off anyway.

I also don't really care about the cut-down smart TV as I would personally chose a more robust external solution with both models.

I have seen that review, the trustedreviews review and the french review of the 55XE70xx on lesnumeriques.com and they all have praise for the TV. I can see the Hisense to be the better value of the two but I also can see why someone would go for the Sony too.

All the picture processing stuff though I don't really believe in. People often laud one type of tv over another or even the fancy names they each give their upscaling engines but they all rank about even to my eyes. They all have the same SoCs to work with and the same power and heat constraints so its just down to which upscaling/motion algorithm people like best...maybe you like many will think the Sony is better or maybe you like me won't even see a difference. You will need to view both models yourself to be sure.
 
Did you have any familiarity with the Philips model I mentioned?

Its just another TV using the AUO 50" panel found on the Hisense 50N6800, Panasonic 50EX700 and Samsung 50MU6100 so performance will be on a par with those models at that size.

It has the advantage of ambilight.
 
Thanks.

The only mention I can see is "poor HDR black levels" but any TV of this price will have poor HDR black levels. Its got no kind of local dimming system so it can't block one part of the screen from being darker than another and with HDR the brightness is always ramped up to full..hence the problem. I don't think the Hisense will be any better in this respect really.

Here is the portion I found near the end :

"Other panels to ponder
There aren’t many 4K HDR TVs around at the 55XE70’s price point, sadly. Hisense’s 55N6800 costs pretty much the same, but while it offers slightly better black levels, the Sony beats it on colour, motion and 4K upscaling.

Our advice here, really - at least if you care about HDR - would be that you try and save up for a brighter, more colour-rich step-up model such as Sony’s own 55XE8596, or the Samsung 55MU7000."



Its just another TV using the AUO 50" panel found on the Hisense 50N6800, Panasonic 50EX700 and Samsung 50MU6100 so performance will be on a par with those models at that size.

It has the advantage of ambilight.

Thanks. That doesn't rule it out then, just have to check what it offers OS wise. Not sold on Ambilight though, seems awfully distracting.

As things are going, seems they'll all perform about the same. Watch, by the end of it I'll be focusing more on which has a swivel capable stand.
 
The black levels on the Sony won't be a problem, I would be surprised if you even notice a difference side by side between the Hisense and the Sony.

The reason I would be wary about the review is because firstly I am not sure they use professional equipment to measure displays and if they do I am not sure if its at a decent level. Not only that but even one exact same TV to another can differ slightly in black level measurements.
Secondly in the summary for the Sony review they mention "Poor black levels with HDR". Which is probably why they talked about it in the comparison above.

The thing is, both TVs are not going to look good with HDR and you likely will be wanting to use only SDR sources unless you constantly want to be tinkering with the brightness setting and fighting a never ending battle between shadow detail and overall brightness.

So I don't think its a consideration or a reason not to go for the Sony, I think they will be very much the same in that respect. I would be more wary about differences in aesthetics and smart TV and whatever you can find the better deal on.

I certainly would want to get the bigger Sony/Hisense over the other models suggested, especially with UHD.
 

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