1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

LCD dead pixels - are we being screwed?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by moveq, Jun 18, 2005.

  1. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    After reading different forums I have come to notice that dead pixels on LCDs are not very uncommon. I myself returned one 37" LCD TV which had one dead subpixel. Although the reason for returning the set wasn't the dead pixel, I felt a weight had been lifted off my shoulders since I got rid off it aswell. I know there's a lot talk about dead pixels not showing to the viewing distance. However, I think there is some rationalising one's own purchase aswell. The statement probably is very true when talking about small screens, but that one dead subpixel on my 37" TV was clearly visible to the viewing distance whenever it was revealed by right types of scenes. The annoying thing about dead pixels is that once you notice them, you will start paying attention to how well they can be seen, and they will drive you crazy :). This has been discussed a bit on this forum too. Ofcource not all fit into this category but I as a perfectionist couldn't get that one dead pixel out of my mind. While watching a movie, I was also watching that dead pixel :).

    The manufacturers' view on this is quite amazing. There is a standard that allows several dead pixels on LCDs and an LCD within the tolerance is concidered "flawless". These "flawless" screens are then sold as new (for full price) and the surprise is awaiting the consumer until the box is opened. The TV's resale price drops that instant when dead pixels are found. Ofcource the standard defines different classes with different tolerances, but little does the normal consumer know about this. The salesmen are not trying to offer any information on this while selling TVs, that would only scare/confuse the buyers. Pixel faults are something that both the manufacturers and retailers know that exist. But basically the consumer has to do a thorough research in order to know about the possible faults of the purchase. Wouldn't it be much better if one could buy a really flawless screen by simply paying a bit more. Some retailers are offering a pixel guarantee, but those are very few and I'm not sure if this even applies to bigger screens.

    How is it possible that the consumers have been brainwashed in this matter to think that the problem is theirs and not the manufacturers? Probably most consumers will settle themselves with this and try to brush the dead pixels to the side of the screen while watching a movie.

    Please do not shoot the messenger, I just want to hear your opinnions on this matter. And perhaps raise the public awareness.
     
  2. bigriggers

    bigriggers
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    354
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Ratings:
    +11
    I agree wholeheartedly, I've always wondered why LCDs are being sold at full retail price when they obviously have a flaw.
     
  3. jobseeker

    jobseeker
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    535
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Ratings:
    +57
    I'd still like to know if anyones'e ever challenged the 'a few is ok' manufacturers policy under UK consumer laws
     
  4. Rob1698

    Rob1698
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    It is your own choice to hunt for the best price you can get or to go to a place where you can get good information and a defined return policy. Maybe you pay a bit more.

    Don't try to tell us this bad pixel policy is somehow an exceptional situation. Look at what is considered acceptable on a CRT tv. Big faults in convergence and geometry are routinely waived off as "within tolerance" by manufacturers and dealers. At least you won't have those on an LCD TV.
     
  5. Llanowar

    Llanowar
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Messages:
    387
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Ratings:
    +0
    Without these dead pixel policies, lcd's would be practically unafordable for all of us. The reason these dead pixels occur is dust in the air during the production proces, it's pretty much impossible to create a totally dust free environment. If we only got the ones without the dead pixels, the proces would become so expensive nobody could afford one, is that what we want? NO. But i agree the amount of dead pixels allowed is absolutely unacceptable!
     
  6. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    Are dead pixels still that common? I have been under the influence that dead pixels are not uncommon but still majority of the LCDs do not have them. Anybody know any source providing reliable information on how common dead pixels really are?

    Here's some statement but deals with portable game consoles
    http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/4091/

    I'm trying to find an LCD without dead pixels, but the idea of trial and error does not really appeal to me. It's quite a trouble to return set after set. I've now returned two sets, although none just because of dead pixels.
     
  7. Binternet

    Binternet
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    190
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sunderland/Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +2
    I have with staples with a laptop and they gave in quite easily.
     
  8. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,789
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +4,982
    I agree, it's (in my opinion) often such a distinct and visible flaw that anything less that 100% should not be acceptable.

    However, production tolerances exist in all consumer goods. On the venerable CRT set, for example, less than perfect geometry is both common and seen as "within tolerance". Is that equally wrong? Maybe so - or maybe we are more tolerant ourselves of minor tilts, kinks or whatever.

    The answer, as always, is to know that the issue has the potential to exist, and to buy accordingly. From a retailer who either will allow you to return it if not 100% happy, or will allow you to check it out before purchase. Or be prepared to exercise your Distance Selling Regulations rights, if bought by phone or internet.

    Bad pixels are reasonably rare, but not so much so that there isn't a real risk. The other good news is that it's even more rare that they will fail during use. Bad pixels are nearly always DOA.
     
  9. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,213
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,310
    It's the one thing that really irritates me about LCD. Although I wasn't pleased with it overall, as the first poster said it felt like a weight had been lifted when I returned my Samsung LCD that had one.

    I'm absolutely fine with dead pixels on my digital camera's 2" LCD screen. But the whole point of a TV is so watch it - and I don't want to watch dead pixels too.
     
  10. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    Good points.

    What I meant by saying the problem being the consumers' is that the buyers themselves have to do the hard work of finding the sets which do not have broken pixels. With bad luck one might end up returning quite many sets. I think it might be a bit easier if the manufacturers did that work. Okay, not everybody bother about dead pixels but still.. If everybody did bother, think about the amount of work being done just for "the quest for dead pixels" :D :D

    This might show in the prices, but I'd rather pay for the work getting done than do it myself. That is, if the price isn't too high. :rolleyes:

    But hey, it's not a perfect world...
     
  11. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,213
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,310
    Aren't we already paying for all the sets that were rejected at the factory?

    I always thought part of the reason for LCD's expense was that many of the sets produced had an unacceptable number of dead pixels, and these are simply thrown out, at our expense. In other words, we pay for maybe 2 or 3 LCD panels in the cost of our TVs to get one that works "properly".
     
  12. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,748
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +270
    That's quite correct, but if the manufacturers had to throw more out to only sell 100% perfect screens, the price would have to go up.
     
  13. Digitised

    Digitised
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +13
    i am a perfectionist myself, but im also a realist.
    I cannot honestly see the fuss with dead pixels. People scream and cry as if their TV has a massive crack down it when really its so unnoticable during normal viewing (at a realistic distance from the screen).

    All panels have at least 1 or 2 dead pixels.
    This isnt about poor quality engineering, this is just the simple fact that your LCD wil have about 1million pixels, all made up of 5 sub pixels.
    In order for each pixel to work, the RED, BLUE, GREEN, ON, OFF, all need to be functioning properly.

    This means that 5 million parts all have to work in even a basic panel.
    So of course a few will have faults, and we are lucky that it is so few.


    The good news is LCD panels have smaller pixels than ever, which means the dead ones dont stick out as much as they used too. Infact they are totally unnoticable over 5 feet away. Thats white on black or black on white.

    My 17'' TFT monitor has 1 dead white pixel. Its only just visible on a black screen, and thats sitting with my head just 18 inches back from it.
    My PSP (imported from california) has 2 dead pixels which i struggled to find.
    My phillips 9986 32 TV hs 3 dead pixels which i can only see up close.

    I have good eyesight, and if i know where to look i can occasionally (almost) see a black speck if im really trying.


    I think you all need to just calm down with this dead pixel issue, and accept that DP's will occur. If you have a massive problem for eg. 10 all dead in a row/group,
    Then by all means take the panel back for a replacement.
    Otherwise just accept that nothing in this world is perfect and things could be worse, such as, you could be watching a crappy plasma TV.
     
  14. DanH

    DanH
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    604
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Ratings:
    +56
    Hit the nail on the head.

    I believe manufacturers actually grade the majority of panels to their own spec. Consumer level panels that have more flaws are sold alot cheaper than the grade 1 panels sold to the Military or Medical services for example. I suppose its a necessary evil, and Digitised raises a good point also. When i bought my LG 17" monitor, i was very tempted to straight away scrutinize the screen looking for them, but never bothered. I knew that if i found any it would annoy me because i knew they were there. 1 year on, i havent noticed any at all through normal use and wouldnt trade this monitor for anything.

    Saying that though, if i spent alot of money on a TV and it had a very noticeable DP that would bother me through normal use of the thing, i would probably push for a replacement. But you may end up getting one with more. :suicide:
     
  15. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,213
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,310
    Also keep in mind the flaws some CRTs have. I think it's Sony's Trinitron CRT PC screens, there's always two dark lines visible on the screen near the top and bottom. Do their TVs also use Trinitron and have this?
     
  16. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,748
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +270
    That's not exactly a flaw - it's a "design feature". The lines on Trinitron CRT screens are fine wires that hold the shadowmask in place.
     
  17. Digitised

    Digitised
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +13
    all sony tv screens and monitors (CRT) have that black line problem.
    Sony also made CRT monitors for DELL, even though it doesnt say that on our monitors at work its bloody obvious by the 2 lines running horizontally across (its a dead giveaway that sont made them lol).

    No display is entirely perfect since they are all based on different technologies, and they all have Pros and Cons.
    LCD just happens to be almost perfect, and in future it will beat its 2 problems - contrast+motion blur (blur is almost dead now).
     
  18. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,213
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,310
    The backlight glow is my only real annoyance. I wonder if they'll ever be able to fix that?
     
  19. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    I have to say I was never bothered by the problems my CRT sets had. In my case they were something you really couldn't spot while watching a movie. Well, my older set had this vertical distortion which always could be seen during the end texts of movies. That set was just so cheap that I felt I was not entitled to complain. :)
     
  20. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,748
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +270
    That's the problem - the TV's are so expensive, people get paranoid about them. What they don't realise is that 3 years ago, they wouldn't have been able to afford them at all. Improved production techniques and manufacture in larger numbers has caused the price to fall, and there's no reason why it shouldn't continue to fall as production quality continues to improve.
     
  21. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    Yup, it happened again... I bought another LCD set and just my luck, a stuck on red pixel smack in the middle! Well, it went back the same day I got it. Once again a whole lot of trouble for nothing. :suicide: Had to make up some other reason for returning it, they wouldn't have taken it back othervise. I'm starting to get paranoid every time I'm thinking of buying a new set. :( Probably will have to insist that I can check the sets prior to taking out of the store.
     
  22. dave_e_field

    dave_e_field
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    My Sony 32M1 has a 'stuck' red subpixel, although it's only visible up close on a black/dark scene. For some reason a totally white screen doesn't show it up.

    I noticed it the day after I got the TV, but couldn't be bothered with the hassle of sending it back, as the replacement could have suffered from the same problem. Or been even worse.

    The Sony manual states the TV will be 99.99% perfect and that anything greater than this is 'nothing to worry about'. A 1366x768 display has over 1.05 million pixels so in theory could have over a hundred faulty before Sony would accept this as a problem. When put like this, my 1 in a million, doesn't seem that bad.

    The way I see it, is even though LCD technology is improving all the time, it will never be 100% perfect.
     
  23. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    A stuck red subpixel will actually be hidden by a white scene because white color has the red component set to maximum. The darker the shade the better the red will show... In my case the whole pixel was stuck on red, meaning red was always on full and green and blue were dead. It showed pretty much all the time.

    Quite right. I've tried to get retailers to sell me a set free of dead pixels, but constantly get "no can do". They keep telling me I have to take my chances. Hopefully those zero dead pixel policies become common some day.
     
  24. GrahamC

    GrahamC
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    2,258
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Morecambe, U.K.
    Ratings:
    +67
    Are we not offering to buy the tech as is though. We are offering to buy a TV of whatever tech with the current known flaws of production be that dead/stuck pixel or covergance errors. An irritation with a stuck pixel does not make the set unfit for purpose. Just thinking outloud......
     
  25. Deku

    Deku
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Have you asked (in say Dixons/Currys) if you can test the panel before you hand over the cash?
     
  26. Apollo11

    Apollo11
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    595
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    32
    Location:
    Hadleigh, Suffolk
    Ratings:
    +55
    Superb reply, I totally agree!! Try watching a Sagem HD-D45 DLP set attempting to cope with fast movement, then you'll appreciate LCD :)
     
  27. moveq

    moveq
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Messages:
    49
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    Not really, I live in Finland :)

    I did find one store where they promised I could get a pre-tested LCD but I'll have to wait a while until they get a particular model I'm interested in... Let's see what happens..
     
  28. Rob_Quads

    Rob_Quads
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    373
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chandlers Ford
    Ratings:
    +12
    I agree that we should not have dead pixels BUT the alternative is

    The cost to produce perfect units will go up ALOT as it may be as bad as 1 in 4 had bad pixes (no idea really but good for an example) so the cost will go up by 25%. What will happen with these sets that are 'faulty' they will be sold off cheaper i.e. the price we pay.
    So at the moment you pay X and might get a perfect set but might not or we could Pay X+25% and get a perfect set or X and definatly get a bad set
     
  29. dave_e_field

    dave_e_field
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    I bought my set online at a huge discount so 'try before buying' was not an option. If i'd have bought one from the high street i would have had to pay a lot more than £1240 (£1700 at John Lewis & £2000 at Sony Centre).

    I could have returned it using distance selling regs, but as i mentioned earlier, i couldn't be bothered with the hassle.

    Am I right in saying that Samsung provide the panels for Sony? There seems to be quite a few posts in the thread for the new Samsung 32" which mention dead/stuck pixels. Maybe it's their factory.
     
  30. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    10,213
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Ratings:
    +1,310
    That was always priced at a very reasonable level for such a large screen though, remember. They could have cut corners to bring the TV to people at such a price, such as using "B-grade" panels.
     

Share This Page

Loading...