Dismiss Notice
Attention AVForums app / Tapatalk users
Sadly GDPR means that, from 25th, we can no longer offer access to AVForums via the branded app or Tapatalk.
Click here for more information.

LCD - am I expecting too much

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by sallyann, Sep 21, 2005.

Tags:
  1. sallyann

    sallyann
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I previously had a Sony 28 inch CRT IDTV and the PQ on Sky and DVD was excellent. We live in a fringe area for digital terestrial reception and although freeview reception was a bit erratic, the PQ was also very good. We decided it was time to upgrade to a larger screen and after trawling the local TV stores and these forums finally decided on a 37 inch LCD. I won't name the make and model here as i don't want to give my views on the product until I fully evaluated it. I did notice in the shops that PQ on LCD was generally worse than my Sony CRT but I assumed that this was due to the sets not being set up correctly. I also undersand that it is generally considered that LCD's can't match a good CRT picture.

    However after taking delivery of the new LCD set, I am somewhat disapointed. There seem to be two areas of concern. Firstly when using the sets preset settings for colour, contrast, brightness etc, the picture is way too contrasty and bright, and almost unwatchable. However moving on to user defined settings, it seems impossible to get a decent picture. The contrast needs to set very high to get decent blacks which in turn makes the whites much too bright. After some perserverence its possible to get a reasonable picture, then switch to another channel and I have to change the settings again.

    The second problem is with Sky. The PQ is downright poor in comparison with my previous TV. All moving objects seem to have a haze around them and the overall picture is just disappointing.

    My questions are: -

    Am I expecting too much from my LCD in comparison to my Sony CRT?
    Is Sky generally poor quality on LCD?
    Is 37" just too large a screen size for LCD - maybe I should have chose plasma?

    I do have the option to change the set for another model, but how do I know if this would be any better?
     
  2. simonio

    simonio
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    What is your viewing distance? I would say you need to be at least 8ft-9ft away from that sort of screen.
     
  3. daz1976

    daz1976
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    138
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +21
    Hi sallyann

    There are a couple of things that might help you make better sense of your new LCD. Firstly the contrast issue is a known weak point of LCD's and normally the best way to deal with this is to turn the backlight down to its minimum setting for watching in a darker enviroment, as the backlight when set too high can give you that glowing overbearing white look you mention. Some sets have this option either easily found or labeled as a second brightness control etc. Secondly, LCD's seem to take somewhat pleasure in an owners care and attention when setting them up, and the best recommendation I can give you for this is a DVD called DVE (Digital Video Essentials) that you can get from places such as play.com for about £15.00 (make sure you get the pal version if you're uk). This disc is fantastic for helping you to set up a screen and also an audio system if you have one.
    Concerning your Sky picture. You will find many posts here saying how bad their Sky/Freeview pictures look on an LCD and to be honest these newer sets do show up the poor quality of our present tv feeds. Most of the time this problem can be helped huge amounts by turning down any sharpness level on the set as this control often introduces bad effects to the picture that weren't originally there in the first place and over emphasizes anything there which isn't so great in the first place. Also as you say, 37" is going to show you more of what a feed can't do than what it can if the original source is not of substantial quality. But assuming your set is Hi Def ready then this is where they begin to shine because this is what they were made for, although I will say that most recent LCD's set up well with a good standard DVD source will blow your socks off, as my Hitachi blows any CRT set I have ever seen into the weeds on a good DVD.
    Hope that has helped a little but i'll always judge my set on what it can reach to, rather than what it's like with stuff that's not worthy of it in the first place.

    Daz
     
  4. ianh64

    ianh64
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,233
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    SW London/Surrey borders
    Ratings:
    +63
    As the previous post says, if the problems with haze etc are visable at normal viewing distances, your screen may be too large for the distance that you are viewing from. As an aside, I often sit at about 4' at an oblique angle to my display and do not have a problem that detracts from viewing pleasure - OK, it is not as sharp as my old 21" CRT was, but at 32" its quite alot bigger too.

    As for colours, contrast etc. On delivery, the majority of TV's, CRT, LCD or otherwise are set for shop display use. Their colours may be slightly out and be overly bright to help them stand out from the crowd. So it is no unusual to have to tweak the settings to make things look right. Contrast on LCD's often work different to contrast on CRT's - some also control the backlight. So having high contrast may be what is needed but you may also find a backlight control too, or maybe not. When I set up my display by eye, I found two areas that looked good, one high contrast/low brightess and the other low contrast/high brightness. Only when using a test disc or comparing black level detail could I tell much difference. Having to alter settings again when you change channels does not sound right - maybe you have to 'save' them? Maybe the shop where you purchased the display from can send an engineer to set the display up for you. Unfortunately, not all shops/manufacturers include this in the price. Or you could buy a test disc or use the THX setup from a DVD and try it your self - remembering that DVD input settings may not affect other inputs so you may need to transfer the settings across and tweak.

    As for the halo, if the screen is not too large, it may be down to some of the processing offered by the TV, or lack of it on others. Some TV's allow you to alter the sharpness or disable some of the processing that you have just paid top ££ for to make the picture look less processed and more natural. As an example, many people here turn off the full PixelPlus 2 processing on their Philips TV's because it looks too processed.

    A final point about LCD. I personally think it can take a short while to get use to the look of an LCD display - the colour temperature is sloghtly too cold which makes the picture less cinematic compared to say a plasma or CRT. I also believe that it can take a day or two for the display itself to settle. For me, when my display was first delivered I started to regret my purchase, but by the end of the evening, I was enjoying it instead.

    At the end of the day, you should be happy with what you have bought. If you are not happy, discuss this with the shop where you purchased from. It sounds like it is not too late for you to change your mind. If after a few days the display is not to your liking, maybe a lower resolution display, such as a plasma or the Sharp P series or a smaller display may be a better route for you.
     
  5. daz1976

    daz1976
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    138
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +21
    And what ianh64 said as well :cool:
     
  6. ijd

    ijd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,172
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +126
    plus dont forget you are now stretching from 28 crt to 37 lcd, the true 28 crt is probaably nearer 27 because an amount of the tube is framed,so yor actual picture size is approx 10 inches bigger.
    if you could get a 37 crt i bet you would still say the pq was not as good as the 28
    allow about 200 hours for a running in period.
    and you dont say which make and model you have,
    if you had a sony a relative high end crt but have gone for an unknown lcd at the lower end ,then of course, again you will notice a difference.
     
  7. andrewfee

    andrewfee
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +500
    I would say 8-9ft for a 32" set simonio, a 37" should be even more. For SD content you want your viewing distance to be at least 3x the diagonal of the display.

    With LCDs viewing distances are critical; if you go below the optimal distance things start looking much worse very quickly.

    LCDs range wildly in quality, so it also depends what make/model you have for what sort of quality you should expect to get out of it. Virtually any LCD will look fantastic with ED/HD content, but you generally pay for what you get with SD content. (regular UK broadcasts)

    There's nothing wrong with 37" LCDs particularly, but going from 28" (26" in LCD terms) to 37" is a huge size difference. If you aren't sitting further back then of course things will look worse - this would happen if you bought a huge CRT, LCD, Plasma etc. The bigger you stretch the image, the worse it will look, especially as our current broadcast system was only designed with 20" televisions in mind. (thankfully we have HD coming at the end of the year)

    CRTs blur out a lot of information from the signal going in, and as such, they "hide" a lot of the problems with the picture. They still look "sharp" though, as edges are usually still fairly well defined.

    LCDs (or any other fixed-pixel display) will show up every little detail in the image which is great, but this also means that they wil show up every flaw as well. With fixed-pixel displays (lcd, plasma etc) garbage in = garbage out. The upside is that with a good source - good quality dvds played through an upscaling player, HD content etc - LCDs will look far better than your old CRT ever did.



    Sallyann - does your LCD have a backlight adjustment control? (possibly a "brightness sensor" or "light sensor") This will allow you to lower the intensity of whites.

    Contrast should not really be affecting black levels at all. (unless you are viewing without any other source of light in the room which is very bad for your eyes)

    Contrast is the "white level" adjustment, and should be set to the point where whites still look nice and white, but where they don't hurt your eyes.

    Brightness is the "black level" adjustment, and should set how black blacks are, and the amount of detail in dark areas.

    One thing I should mention is that "sharpness" shoud always be set to zero, regardless of what kind of television you're using.



    There is a DVD called "Digital Video Essentials" which is designed to help you set up your display, and it has a great little video on explaining brighness / contrast. As it's copyrighted I won't post the image they use, but have made a crude reproduction, and I'll try to explain it.

    [​IMG]

    Imagine the red box is what's being displayed on your screen. The contrast control, which sets the white level, will set the "height" of the box, either extending or shortening it.

    The brightness control will slide the whole box up/down the scale, affecting both dark and light areas. So you're best to set the brightness to show off the most detail in shadow areas first, and then lower the contrast to an acceptable level.

    DVE comes with "test patterns" which will help you get it set just right, rather than you having to guess it.



    At the proper viewing distances for the size of your display, LCD will look better than a CRT in my opinion. Unlike a CRT, which is watchable at almost any distance, going closer than the "optimal viewing distance" will lower the image quality of SD content significantly. This is due to the low resolution of current television broadcasts having to be "scaled" up to the resolution of the screen. (a CRT displays them as they are, as it doesn't need to scale)
     
  8. knobbs

    knobbs
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    hi, it depends on what model lcd you have, some are decent some are crap.
    footy and fast moving sports are very poor on most lcd panels, i think most of it is distance, i have a 21inch lg not rgb model footys great when watching from 7ft upwards, go close and the pic worsens.
    37 inch lcd is a big screen, i think you would have to be a cosiderable distance away to make the pic look decent.
    but come hi def next year all these probs will be sorted, no one shall be moaning about pic quality, i hope. but its gonna come at a price, sky rubbing there hands as i speak.
    i allways bring the footy bit up, because its a good rule to go by, get a panel thats footys good on and everthing else will be.
    i recently bought a 26 inch lg, to relace the 20 inch one i have, it was too big, the artefacts all showed up, motion blur, and so on.
    i had a 42 inch plasma also lg, total crap, changed to a 37 inch viera, cracking panel even on the footy from abt 7ft away.
    so what u buys is what u get.
    cheers.
     
  9. matt_p

    matt_p
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    851
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Ratings:
    +38
    Are you sure you don't want to name the screen? Chances are there are other owners out here who could point you in the right direction re: picture settings, connections etc.

    You may as well make the most of the AV Forums collective brain! :D
     
  10. sallyann

    sallyann
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for all your fast responses. I think that viewing distance is certainly one of the issues, but we will be moving house soon (which was one of the reasons for buying a new TV) so once we move we will have better viewing arrangements.

    I guess I need to spend some more time adjusting the settings. I'll try all your tips and report back later.
     
  11. superpixel

    superpixel
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    It sounds like you've discovered you need a plasma...

    Why did you choose LCD in the first place?

    I guarantee that a Panasonic TH37PE50 at about £1000 will be much, much more to your liking.
     
  12. knobbs

    knobbs
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    hi9 again thats what ive got, great panel.
     
  13. ijd

    ijd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,172
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +126
    well just one reason for choosing lcd..non reflective screen, oh i could go on and on and on, in fact like an lcd screen i could go on for a very long time,unlike plasma
     
  14. knobbs

    knobbs
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    hi, unlike plasma-i like lcd too, but only the smaller screens, plasmas are for living rooms, have not seen a lcd to beat a panny viera.
    if you go too big with lcd, there not too good, try watching the footy on them and you will know what i mean, and whos got a 30-40ft living room, which the pic might just look ok.
    trouble with sky is they shove low bitrate channels out that look pretty poor on the new wave of panels, no one likes the crt tvs anymore, too bulky, take up too much space, and dont look as stylish, next year crt tvs will start too slowly diminish, with the hi def quality.
    dont worry about your hi def lcd having a crap pic now, all will be sorted.
    and as for lcd beating a plasma, i dont think so, maybe some plasma panels, yes, but like i said u gets what u buy.
    cheers.
     
  15. davidac

    davidac
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    235
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Watford
    Ratings:
    +5
    LCD's and Plasma's are often referred to as having a fixed number of pixels and so requires the image to often be scaled. But CRT also has a fixed number of pixels, you see them as vertical stripes if you look close. But CRT using very old technology has no scaling problems, so why do LCD and Plasma have such problems.
     
  16. daxie

    daxie
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    ? CRT's having a fixed number of pixels? Check up on your electronics...

    Here's how CRT's work:

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/tv3.htm

    What you call "vertical stripes" are the lines that build up the image. Therefor scaling is not an issue with CRT's, they are completely different as apples to pears...
     
  17. davidac

    davidac
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    235
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Watford
    Ratings:
    +5
    The vertical lines are the pixels, you can see them even when the TV is off. Red+greed+bue = one pixel, followed by repeated reg, green and blue vertical lines of phosphor. You can also see from the diagram in your link the shadow mask defines the pixels.
     
  18. scrapbook

    scrapbook
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    7,424
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +551
    Is it me or do posts by female members seem to get quicker and more comprehensive responses than others???
     
  19. Sunrunner

    Sunrunner
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    65
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +2
    Everyone wants to help a damsel in distress !! Its the caveman in all of us !
     
  20. chambeaj

    chambeaj
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    3,055
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +190
  21. sallyann

    sallyann
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ok i'll let you into a secret .... my missus first logged in as salllyann and I am husband of sallyann. As we share the same email address we can't set up another username and as far as i can tell its not possible to change a username so i guess I'm stuck with it.

    But yes I did notice that 'damsels in distress' do seem to get a fast response.
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice