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Last CRT I buy this year I promise!!!! - RASTER EVENING

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Boy Lex, Jul 25, 2005.

  1. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    So after deciding that I wanted to upgrade from my Seleco 350+, but having no money to do so, I got hold of a barco 701s (credit card company is going to love me!)

    For my money I managed to pick up:
    1x Barco 701s with no blue
    1x Barco 701s not working, no lid, no lenses with 3 tubes
    1x Barco remote
    3x Sony SD187 tubes in mint condition

    So I've set it up and all in all am very impressed with the Barco over my Seleco - digital convergence is nice and the toshiba tubes are noticeably brighter than the Sonys.

    Problem is burn... The green and red look ok, about 6/10 green 7/10 red. The other 3 are a bit less burnt, but the raster is not exactly nicely large and in the middle!

    So... using a mac and a free paint program, here is an attempt to spread the burn so that I can use a larger raster... results to follow.
     

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  2. cosaw

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    I'll follow this closely as would be interested to see how it goes - have seen at least one succesfully done over on the AVSforum some time ago.

    What sorta brightness/contrast are you gonna run and for how long? Is it a set stationary image your displaying or is there any movement whatsoever? You doing one tube at a time I would think?

    Would be interesting to know after how long wear starts to appear - quickly I would think. Can building up the wear/burn pattern quickly have any negative effects over the same result which would be achieved through doing this procedure more slowly?

    Simon
     
  3. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    Well it's been running for about 18 hours so far and barely made a dent!!! I've got the brightness up at 90. Considering the tube as if it had even wear of what I am putting on to it, I'd say wev'e gone from a 10/10 to a 9/10 - ie you can just about see where my new raster is.

    The mask is completely static a the moment, but I intend to make a much softer edged replacement once I start getting close to the right burn.

    Pictures as and when there's a noticeable change...
     
  4. cosaw

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    18 hours!! Blimey - what do you do put it on standby every 30 mins and check the wear? Whats your contrast at? - perhaps that'll make it go quicker. Mind you turning contrast much higher than 70 on mine and the pj starts sizzling worryingly.

    Si
     
  5. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Boy Lex as I pointed out off line that 701 does not have the complsory heat shut down circuit issued by Barco when a new tube is fitted.
    This was done because the Toshiba tubes can overheat and fail (ie crack)especially if you get too close to the edges.
    I would keep checking the temperature of that tube if it feels more than warm give the projector a rest. It would definitly worth putting a fan on it too with the lens off to help get some heat out of there.

    I think you should start a book on how long it will take to get the wear the same across the tube. I will offer my guess at Two weeks i e 360 hrs. I tried it once and gave up. But I have seen some new projectors go in less than 24hrs.

    Good luck I'll watch with interest. You have nothing to loose.
    If you ever find out who installed that projector an a screen that far away name and shame them.
     
  6. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    Well it came from MOD, so lets not eh?! Could have paratroopers storming the place!!!

    Thanks for the advise re overheating... I'll put a fan on it now!
     
  7. Boy Lex

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    Cor blimey!!! Glad you posted that when you did! Just as I was putting the fan up to it, I decided to touch the front of the tube... OUCH!!! Hot is not the word! It's cooling off now. Super powerful fan on it now, so that should help when it goes back on. I also noticed that all of the LEDs had turned orange... presumably it should have shut down if it had the heat protection on it? It doesn't seem to have affected anything as it came back from standby with green lights and displayed the DVD on the other input fine. I'll put it back on in half an hour when it's cooled down.

    If it's going to take 2 weeks then I'm doubly glad I decided to do it at work!!! He he!
     
  8. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    I don't think that is possible. I suspect you have been looking at the blue light too long. Bit like a moth I guess.
     
  9. Boy Lex

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    Maybe!!!! I'm dreading driving home now... got these big blue lights in front of my eyes everywhere I go!!!!
    Hopefully some photos in the morning with some change!
     
  10. Boy Lex

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    Something is happening!!!! Well very slowly anyway - I think Roland might be about right on how long this is going to take!!

    Here is the tube after 46 hours - you can just about make out the new raster edge. The fan is doing a great job of cooling it though - it's barely warm to touch now.
     

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  11. Boy Lex

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    Raster has become clearly visable (not so much in photo, but to the eye!)... Still a long way off tho.
     

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  12. Boy Lex

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    That's a grubby finger mark at the top where I'm checking temperature!
     

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  13. Boy Lex

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    Starting to match with the least worn areas of the old raster, so I've now modified the mask to burn the least worn bits to the level of the worst worn bits. Not expecting a miracle though - there's a tiny dot burn in the middle (where I guess the deflection must have failed at some point) and there's also the sky sports and mtv logos that I don't think there's anything I can do about.
     

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  14. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Looking good - how sophisticated is your mask - what software are you using to create it? How are you getting it to line up? Do you project your desktop with a tube and then mask out in a paintshop package? Got a pretty good idea of how I might do it just wondered if you had any tips.
     
  15. Boy Lex

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    Hi Si

    Exactly as you describe - I'm using a freeware paint programme and painstakingly using a soft edged paint brush to create a fuzzy edge. Last night I left work and my boss turned it all off (including the mac) thinking that I'd left it on by accident, so I had to go in and create it all over again!!!

    i basically put the lens back on with just the top two bolts and plugged the green in at the back and redid it. I'm just using white, then when the mask is ready I'm lowering the G2 on red and green and unplugging red and green, defocussing the blue G2 and then removing the lens and putting the fan up close.

    I'll pop in again later today to check up on it.
     
  16. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Lex - thanks for the details - its interesting to know incase I thought of buying a pj with poorly set up tubes and offset wear on the cheap. Just for the fun of tinkering and seing what can be achieved.

    Could you not save your mask that you've created as a jpg or something or do you keep modifying it to fit the wear as it changes?

    A seperate point about keeping the wear even in normal use. I was thinking what would be useful for us crters is a programme for pc that could insert whatever aspect ratio of source video you are watching into a 4:3 frame with random video in the black bar areas. To get rid of the random video in the projected image you would mask it with black mattes to frame the actual video you are watching. Wonder if anyone has experimented with such techniques - you could then keep a fully useable even 4:3 wear pattern through the life of your pj instead of a ending up with 16:9, 1.85:1 or worst 2.35:1 graduations in wear across the tube. Anyone know of such software or methods?

    Simon
     
  17. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    Yes! But I wasn't expecting my boss to just unplug the mac! :eek:

    Hmmm... Well to mask these random video areas properly you'd have to put something between the tubes and the lenses, so you'd have to choose a permenant aspect ratio you are happy with. You'd also be loosing scan lines to these bars instead of scaling an anamorphic picture. Seems a little futile unless you are really interested in preserving a big wear area for resale.

    Personally I think you'd be better just wearing in a nice big 16:9 raster - that's the way the worlds going, so I don't think you'd be making it lose value.

    OK then update at something like 144 hours

    Wear is starting to look much more even... There does seem to be a slightly less worn transition area between old and new though, so I've now extended the mask into the worn area a bit.

    I watched wimbledon on it today and the old raster was much less noticeable than when I first powered it up. It's still apparent on skies and solid whites, but it is much less intrusive. It is difficult to see in the photos, so I've taken a close up on the london skyline so you can see it.

    I'm thinking a couple more days and it'll be as good as it's going to get.
     

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  18. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Looks like its really starting to take effect - that Wimbledon shot is particularly good - probably to do with the green not showing it up as much.

    Masking the video is what I'd do on the screen - I've got a 4:3 screen and some black felt - I'd flip the felt down on the 4:3 screen creating the aspect ratio I want. The idea being that the black won't reflect the random video so you won't see it. I would hope the software would still be sophisticated enough to manage anamorphic with this. You'd have to create a window that was taller than 4:3 in effect the equivalent of overscanning (if this is possible within the raster area - it may not be) and then use the anamorphic squeeze - in that way you wouldn't loose any lines.

    Like you say though 16:9 is the way its going - its just my over active mind flirting with ideas. If the software was relatively simple and anamophic could still be achieved then it would more likely be worth it.

    How many hours did Roland estimate, 360? Seems like he was in the right ball park.
     
  19. Boy Lex

    Boy Lex
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    I have a theory that the wear is heavier in the middle of the shape you create - this would explain why there is a lighter area just next to the old raster even though I made the mask meet it. I'll check it again tomorrow and I might just make a brush along the edge - the rest of the new wear is looking pretty close to the old now.
     
  20. Boy Lex

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    Well this is around 170 hours. The new wear matches the old, but we still have a noticeable line between the two that I'm unsure how to approach. Once it's installed properly, I might try and rectify it, but at the moment all is turned off so I can concentrate on my house move/building the sitting room home cinema!
     

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  21. cosaw

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    Suppose I ought to get on with mine too, still need to get the PJ and Screen to ceiling level.

    The line pretty much looks like part of the old pattern and wouldn't know how to go about it - perhaps watch a good few movies and hope it starts to smooth out.

    I've got about 5 or 6 equidistant vertical lines of totally virgin phosphor down my image on all tubes from the pjs previous use and just enough wear everywhere else just to highlight it. If you look at the tubes themselves none of this wear is visible but it shows in the image but not enough to distract - only on blue skys and clouds really the rest of the time you can't see it. Can't see I'll ever get rid of it as the lines are really fine.

    Well your work shows its doable and probably worthwhile for people looking to get into crt cheaply via a miss-used crt.

    Si
     
  22. crispybig

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    That is a great effort, Lex. Well done, you've encouraged me to seriously think about having a go myself.

    Any chance you could repost a picture of the original wear with a similar pixel size to your final picture? The one you originally posted is only about 200 pixels wide, and I'd like to see some more detail.

    Also, why did you not include the lower left corner in the wear pattern? I realise it's probably outside 16:9, but I thought you would have done it while you were at it. Perhaps there's a technical reason?

    Thanks.
     
  23. Boy Lex

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    Hi Chris - thanks for that praise!

    I didn't actually bother taking a photo before I started (stupid I know!!!) - the one in the thread is from the eBay photo.

    The reason I didn't bother with the corner is partly that it was well outside the raster of the green and red, but also because the paint program I was using didn't have a full screen option, so I sized the raster as big as I felt comfortable (trying to avoid going into the so called 'protected area' and then I had to blank the menubar and the window bar so I wouldn't have that burned in (not that it would really have mattered to be honest).
     
  24. Paul D

    Paul D
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    cosaw,
    If you need any help with the lifting/installing just give me a shout ;)

    Boy Lex,
    Enjoyed reading this thread very much.
    Reading figures and facts can get boring very quickly.
    So seeing actual photos and some grass roots DIY going on, has be a great relief from the norm! :thumbsup:
     
  25. cosaw

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    Cheers Paul for the offer - I'll bear it in mind. Might pm you to ask about ceiling mounts if you made your own and such?? Next step is to get some Unistrut.

    Last time we spoke I think you were selling your 808 (I think it was an 808) and going LCD/DLP. Did it go? What you got now?

    Simon
     
  26. Boy Lex

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    I'd be up for crossing over the pennines to help with that! Could probably do with a hand putting this one up too in a couple of weeks!!! ;)
     
  27. cosaw

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    Thanks Lex also for the offer. The reason mines still on the floor is in the last 24 months I've developed a disc problem in my lower back so don't want to touch the thing myself in case I do myself in further. The injury was not from lifting the pj by the way!

    I'm wanting to find a way of hoisting it to the ceiling really so that I know I can do it myself if I need to change a tube or something. Seen one or two done with rope and pulleys and one with chains on the net.

    Anyhow couldn't return the favour in getting yours to the ceiling as can't lift mine either due to my disc problem. :( If I work out a cheap way of hoisting I'll let you know.

    Got a few additional health problems at the mo so things are going slow and probably not gonna get it to the ceiling anytime soon unless I stop work on my subs! Yes its all happening - unfortunately very very slowly ;)
     
  28. Boy Lex

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    Yeah pulleys would be good! It crossed my mind to take the lenses and tubes out and then refit them once it's on the ceiling. Let me know if you come up with anything interesting. More than happy to help if I've got the time!
     
  29. Paul D

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    Hi Simon
    Yes i did sell the BD808s.
    I went with the Marantz S3 DLP.
    They are totally different beasts, but i am very happy.

    I still enjoy the images CRT can give, but just don't want to own one!
    The thought of buying a Barco Cine 9 still enters my head now and again.
    But the realities of ownership and cost soon snaps me out of it!

    I'm into "home cinema" rather than any particular projection method. And i'm interested in all the technologies available.
    I think it is getting harder to find any clear winner, so personal preference comes into it more.

    I actually enjoy doing installs, and find it most interesting.
    I don't think you can beat that moment when you first switch ANY projector on.

    Have you considered floor mounting your PJ?
    And you are welcome to come round and have a gander at my setup etc.

    B.L
    If you need some help when the time comes, let me know :smashin:
     
  30. Roland @ B4

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    Boy lex excelent job
    Looks like I was a bit off the mark on the hours.
    But it does depend on the age of the tube.
    I know we all strive for perfect tubes with no wear but it still amazes me the picture that will come from a tube like yours
     

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