Lance Armstrong, is the truth about to out ?

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
"The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colours. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?"
Lance Armstrong to be stripped of Tour de France titles and banned for life as he gives up fight over drug charges - Telegraph

I don't see how they can strip him of his titles if there is no evidence other than hearsay?
Or is there evidence? No-one AFAIK has ever proved that he was taking anything, so what is this all based on?
 

Deadringers

Member
Yes I don't like the fact that he has been tested more than 500 odd times and yet because some other people say he was cheating he is deemed to have cheated.

I don't condone any kind of cheating in pro sports but I would like to see a fair trial and at least some photo evidence or something more solid than statements from 10 people who were in the firing line just before they thought they should actually rat on someone else to save themselves.
 

kopchoir

Banned
Look cyclists have been doping themselves up for donkeys years. They are all at it been at it and will continue at it. No smoke without fire and all that personally they should just let everyone do what they want and then may the best roids win
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
Yes I don't like the fact that he has been tested more than 500 odd times and yet because some other people say he was cheating he is deemed to have cheated.

I don't condone any kind of cheating in pro sports but I would like to see a fair trial and at least some photo evidence or something more solid than statements from 10 people who were in the firing line just before they thought they should actually rat on someone else to save themselves.
That's exactly how it seems to me. That the evidence has come from those who have been caught bang to rights and are being spiteful and vindictive in some vain attempt to rehabillitate themselves.

I have read many articles today from many different sources and not one of them has actually said what this 'conclusive evidence' is.

It can't be positive testing, because they would have come right out and said it.

What gets me is that they keep samples for years and in LA's case decades and even though the anti-doping technology is racing ahead at an incredible pace, they still can't show that his early samples are doped. The implication is that LA's doping was so advanced that even a decade later, the anti-doping people have not caught up. It all sounds like utter tosh to me. Pure spiteful vindictive persecution for reasons that are only apparent to the pack that are intent on hunting him down.

Put up or shut up, for goodness sake. To destroy a man, his life, his achievements, his future, his past without putting forward rock solid evidence is a disgusting way to carry on.
The evidence, right now, or leave him in peace.
 
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johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
Look cyclists have been doping themselves up for donkeys years. They are all at it been at it and will continue at it. No smoke without fire and all that personally they should just let everyone do what they want and then may the best roids win
So, what you are saying is that LA should be stripped of all his TdF titles, but no-one should be awarded them retrospectively because there are no clean candidates?
 

inzaman

Moderator
So, what you are saying is that LA should be stripped of all his TdF titles, but no-one should be awarded them retrospectively because there are no clean candidates?
That's what could happen but the USADA kangaroo court dont have that authority thankfully, it is only the UCI that do and i cannot see them stripping him of the titles as who are they going to give them to when most of the competitors have not had the same scrutiny or in some case have admitted to doping :suicide:
 

hulkhogan

Active Member
He has been stripped if the titles which will forever cloud his legacy.

Don't know I'd they have been awarded to anyone else though most likely they will be

The main issue with LA os that when he was cycling he ****** ALOT of people off intentionally and unintentionally. He's not a loved figure ESP from that era within cycling like he is outside.

End of the day the doping agency even back then suspected he was juicing with the right stuff to remain hidden. They've long suspected him as well as other riders. So if xyz dealer/racer has come out and said he juiced up on this combination of drugs which I saw/supplied to him then why can't they go back and test his samples for those drugs I don't kniw
 

hulkhogan

Active Member
inzaman said:
Is this for certain, do you have a link?
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1143295

One other thing

People asking for proof etc. this is an on going investigation and releasing evidence may compromise investigations into other people too.
 

kopchoir

Banned
So, what you are saying is that LA should be stripped of all his TdF titles, but no-one should be awarded them retrospectively because there are no clean candidates?
No what i am saying is doping is rife in this sport would it really surprise you to find out Armstrong was roided up??
His team mates were all banned and they say they would testify that he was doped up to.
Also he isnt fighting it,come out with some sob story that they have been after me for ages/or he is fighting a loosing battle he cant win becuase he knows they are right.
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
Also he isnt fighting it,come out with some sob story that they have been after me for ages/or he is fighting a loosing battle he cant win becuase he knows they are right.
Or does he know that the only way to fight someone with a politcal motive and deep (US Taxpayer funded) pockets is to spend every penny until he is bankrupt?
Which would you rather be? Wealthy and supported by a majority of people but stripped of your titles, or bankrupt and still being hounded?

All I ask is for them to show us some evidence.

This from the Telegraph rolling story: (12:16)
Further to Dave Moss's email below it has been revealed by US Anti-Doping Agency chief executive Travis Tygart that the evidence against Lance Armstrong will be made public, despite the cyclists decision not to fight the charges against him. He said the evidence will be released "in due course".

When asked if he expected details of the evidence against Armstrong to emerge, he said: "Yes, absolutely...at the right time. Obviously there are other cases that are alleged to be involved in the conspiracy. Their cases are still proceeding, so it will be in due course."
So they are going to destroy his name, his reputation & his record right now and present the evidence "in due course"

How is that right or fair in any way?
 

icstm

Active Member
L'Equipe, the leading sports daily newspaper in France, published a report Tuesday that said six different urine samples Armstrong provided during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the performance-enhancing drug EPO when examined in 2004 by a French lab fine-tuning EPO testing. The lab tested all the B samples from the 1999 Tour. EPO, which builds endurance, was a banned substance in 1999 but there was no approved test for it.

Of the 12 samples that returned as positive, six came from Armstrong, the story said.

All of the 1999 Tour A samples were used up in that year's testing. Some remnants of the B samples are available, according to L'Equipe.

BUT... two B's are not legally the same as the required A and separate B samples.

So that is probably where the contradictory statements come from. Using today's test he would be found using substances that WERE banned in 1999 but were not tested for.
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
No what i am saying is doping is rife in this sport would it really surprise you to find out Armstrong was roided up??
His team mates were all banned and they say they would testify that he was doped up to.
Also he isnt fighting it,come out with some sob story that they have been after me for ages/or he is fighting a loosing battle he cant win becuase he knows they are right.
So, how come they were caught and he wasn't? Are they jealous because he got given better, more sophisticated dope that was/is harder to detect and now they want revenge? I doubt it. What you want us to believe is that everyone in the team was getting doped up but the only one to escape detection was the one with the very highest profile? I'm sorry, but to me that sounds implausible.
 
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johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
L'Equipe, the leading sports daily newspaper in France, published a report Tuesday that said six different urine samples Armstrong provided during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the performance-enhancing drug EPO when examined in 2004 by a French lab fine-tuning EPO testing. The lab tested all the B samples from the 1999 Tour. EPO, which builds endurance, was a banned substance in 1999 but there was no approved test for it.

Of the 12 samples that returned as positive, six came from Armstrong, the story said.

All of the 1999 Tour A samples were used up in that year's testing. Some remnants of the B samples are available, according to L'Equipe.

BUT... two B's are not legally the same as the required A and separate B samples.

So that is probably where the contradictory statements come from. Using today's test he would be found using substances that WERE banned in 1999 but were not tested for.
So effectively he's only failed the drugs test if you retrospectively change the rules about testing?
 

inzaman

Moderator
So, how come they were caught and he wasn't? Are they jealous because he got given better, more sophisticated dope that was/is harder to detect and now they want revenge? I doubt it. What you want us to believe is that everyone in the team was getting doped up but the only one to escape detection was the one with the very highest profile? I'm sorry, but to me that sounds implausible.
Well as it appears at the moment, and until more information comes out, this is the 'evidence' that could strip Lance of seven tour victories and further damage his reputation - no hard evidence just hearsay so it seems.

Kopchoir seems to have the same mindset as Tygart - no wonder Lance has given up with it :rolleyes:
 

icstm

Active Member
So effectively he's only failed the drugs test if you retrospectively change the rules about testing?
not the rules, what it appears that today's tests (and those in 2004) are more able to spot dugs that have been banned for many years.

I too am (was?) a huge fan of what LA acheived, but if he cheated, surely that is bad? When Schumi barged Hill off the road and was not penalised, that does not change the fact his 1st WDC was won in a pretty poor way and many would want to see him stripped.
 

kopchoir

Banned
Usada statement says they have '12+ witnesses who agreed to testify about their 1st hand experience/knowledge of USPS conspiracy'

Usada says numerous witnesses gave evidence they'd either seen LA dope or he'd told them he had. EPO, HGH, blood transfusions etc

Usada also says it has 'scientific data showing LA's use of blood manipulation including EPO & transfusions in 2009'

Wada statement notes 2 men included in charge r contesting this, their rights may b prejudiced by premature speculation re evidence

If your the greatest cyclist ever a super human as others have attested to then you fight it.
He suggested its him that turned it in-Guilty strip the man

Also why take out an injuction to stop this all very fishy,seems your all blinded by it all
 
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kopchoir

Banned
So effectively he's only failed the drugs test if you retrospectively change the rules about testing?
I was always led to believe that samples are kept for years,when new enhacnment comes out they backdate tests.
So no they havent changed the rules just charged him with doping and as you have said in your post he has failed a drugs test?? whats so hard to comprehend
 

hulkhogan

Active Member
an interesting statistic i heard on the radio

from the 7 TDF's armstrong won apart from armstrong and 3 other people, all other top 5 finishers have been implicated in this drug scandal.

in every generation there is always a stand out athlete which can raise 20% above his competitors. we have had pele, sampras, federer, woods, messi, bolt, hoy, redgrave etc yet no one has ever pointed the finger there either

until usada release what proof they have this speculation and trial by media of armstrong will sadly continue.
 

ben2579

Active Member
I have been a massive LA fan!!! I so wanted to believe but I'm afraid by not answering this case in a tribunal he has pushed me towards believing the worst.

We know lance is a fighter - he had to fight this so I could still believe. This is his legacy!! Now the trial by media will continue and we will never have the chance for it to be heard in a proper tribunal!!!

The power of denial is so very powerful but can only sustain so long!!!
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
Ben - look up "House on un American Activities".
You will find the name McCarthy there and this is precisely the same tactics that :censored: used .
The US political system supports these kinds of witch hunts and, as others have pointed out, the old samples would have shown up drugs used at the time using modern testing.
Add to that the old trick "We will release the evidence later" which they never do and it is McCarthyism all over.
Plus the TdF is outside their jurisdiction but that still claim to take the decision.
A despot. :mad:
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
Ben - look up "House on un American Activities".
You will find the name McCarthy there and this is precisely the same tactics that :censored: used .
The US political system supports these kinds of witch hunts and, as others have pointed out, the old samples would have shown up drugs used at the time using modern testing.
Add to that the old trick "We will release the evidence later" which they never do and it is McCarthyism all over.
Plus the TdF is outside their jurisdiction but that still claim to take the decision.
A despot. :mad:
Your analogy with McCarthy-ism is spot on. Let rip with accusations, claim there is evidence that will be released at some stage, destroy the reputation and then quietly walk away. I hope that those with sense in the US will prosecute the whole anti-doping establishment for this massive abuse of power. Put up all the evidence now or shut up - it really is that simple
 

kopchoir

Banned
Haven't they got proof that he had EPO via blood products in his system. ???
 

scatterbug

Well-known Member
Your analogy with McCarthy-ism is spot on. Let rip with accusations, claim there is evidence that will be released at some stage, destroy the reputation and then quietly walk away. I hope that those with sense in the US will prosecute the whole anti-doping establishment for this massive abuse of power. Put up all the evidence now or shut up - it really is that simple
Oh don't worry....Bruyneel et al. have decided to proceed to arbitration. We will hear the evidence - Armstrong can't run from that.
 

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