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$ky+ replacing faulty boxes with "refurb units"

Discussion in 'Satellite TV, Sky TV & FreeSat' started by Starkiller, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    Ive just had my $ky+ box swaped after less than 2 months, due to crashing/lock-ups, over & under recording(1 time it recorded 900min and erased everything on the disk) and the RGB output was missing the blue part. So he puts it down as a rgb fault and swaps it.

    Anyway as the guy is installing it, i notice a referbish sticker on the "new" box, the claims he doesnt know, if it is refurb or not.

    2min after hes gone, I notice interferance every 30sec or so
    I check the other channels and the same thing is happening
    :rolleyes:
    so ive now got a box that some else had problems with and rejected. i assume like my "old" box it had some problems that were found and some that are not.
    So i call sky, they say its standard to replace them with refurb units(blah blah read your contract blah blah) :mad:, this just aint on!!
    My old box(listed as rgb fault) will be return and the engineer will read the notes and fix the rgb fault, but the others will probably not get fixed, then someone else gets my problem ridden machine.

    I note from another post that there are 1500 referb's that sky need to shift, and therefore offer them to a select market at £100(1/2 price), so why should people who have paid full price & recieved a duff units(probaby at least 1500people) accept this....?

    so im still waiting skys "geezzza" to bring me someone else's cast off's:suicide:

    this sort of service aint worth £40/month
    :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow
     
  2. STOWITBELOW

    STOWITBELOW
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    It seems Sky's policy is to exchange faulty boxes with refurbs. Consumer rights may mean your entitled to a 'new' unit (or repair, it depends) if yours is faulty but it isn't just that straightforward. It's poor for yours to break & the refurb replacement to be naf. That at least should have been fully tested ok. I suspect you could hold out for a new box. But you may have to do that - hold out. I don't know how long for but it would mean no decent Sky whilst your argueing. I'd take the refurb, but it should be as new. & no this service isn't worth £40pm. Write to them, complain & ask for compensation. You may get a free month or so.
     
  3. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    I'll have to check the 3rd box, when it comes................... it was due this afternoon.......but sky cant get the enginner on the phone.

    It took 2 wks to get a engineer out last time(on a Sat, as we both work), so it could be a while anyway:rolleyes:

    I would accept a referb box if it came with £100:devil:
    and worked

    thanks for listening to my rant :smoke:
     
  4. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    Quick update:

    Sky recon there repair company contractors in my area are the worsed on there list (yeh yeh, blame someone else).

    The suppose to be coming round tomorrow, now with a new box.

    So if this happens to you just hold out, and dont let them fob you off.

    more later
     
  5. STOWITBELOW

    STOWITBELOW
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    Hope it turns out ok, if your not happy COMPLAIN, not just here, to Sky. Good luck. It's the only way they'll improve, so it's not just to vent your spleen, its for all of us consumers!!
     
  6. Cynthia 7

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    Starkiller, I experienced the same problems last year. I had Sky + in February 2003, started having problems in August 2003, having to disconnect, wipe card, etc. every other day to get listings. Sky help, usually involving all recorded programmes being eliminated. Then complete failure to record. I had three "new" boxes which gave constant trouble, one flashed to oblivion 30 minutes after the engineer had installed it.

    I was getting concerned as I had only two months left of the guarantee. Possibly since I subscribe to the full package, I received a new Pace 2 in December and what a difference! That engineer told me that the other machines were "refurbs", unbeknown to me.

    One thing that concerned me, and I wonder if this is why a lot of boxes fail, two of the engineers disconnected the old boxes and installed the "new" boxes whilst the television was switched on, showing a picture. We are told in the instruction manual never to disconnect or connect without switching off mains power. I said to the two engineers "The power is meant to be switched off" and one said "It doesn't matter". The other said "I know what I'm doing". When I realised the engineer with my new Pace 2 was going to do the same I went over and pulled the plug out of the wall. I will write to Sky about this. All these engineers were contractors (I heard them mention this on the phone to Sky). Maybe this is why there are so many "refurbs".

    Good luck, and I hope you get a Pace 2 next time, the picture is superior and there are no problems!
     
  7. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    I got my "new" box today, guess what.....its a refurb :suicide:
    even though i was told by sky, i would get a new one.

    But at least this one works...............for now
    (BTW my unit is a Vers 2 Pace, white box)

    When i was speaking to the engineer, he said some boxes dont get labled as faulty, then get given out :rolleyes:

    ill give it a couple of days to see if any faults occur, then ill go for some comp from Sky

    Very True thats why i posted this here I dont belive its fair what sky are doing
    I sent a email to sky, so we will see what comes of that

    Cheers
     
  8. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    My 3rd "recon" V2 Box is now Furbar'ed, I guess its a HD failure
    all programs lost.......again :mad:

    Recon boxes are G@Y. :thumbsdow

    $ky's policy is going to ruin them.
    think Ive got two choices
    either to reject every box that come to the house or claim it got a fault till I get a new one. With a Full new warrenty

    Or Take it back to Currys and claim a refund, as the goods are not fit for purpose and cancel sky( for £40 I can get free digital TV and say 3-4DVD films)

    I must decide soon what to do, Cuz If I leave It will fail 1month after Warrenty expires and Ill be stuck With anther duff Box

    ??????????????
    I would Like to hear From other $ky+ owners/suffer's
    how long their boxes have lasted between failures?
    ??????????????
     
  9. ajb

    ajb
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    Hi guys

    Your contract says that Sky can supply you with a new or as new box when they first install Sky+. If they install a brand new box, I would say that there is a very strong argument under section 48 of the SGA 1979 as amended that you should have another new box if the original one becomes faulty.

    Could do with a bit more info and then I can give you a bit more legal advice....

    Andrew
     
  10. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    Thanks Andy

    What info do you need? PM me if you want

    I found this page on The Sale of Goods Act http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htm
    Looks like you have 6months to claim goods faulty from new, not 28 days as Sky say

    (3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so conformed at that date.
    and have a choice of Refund or replacement or discounted(guess this has to be aggreed)

    I bought the box from curry's(Nov 03, installed 15/11/03), Could I take it back there as they sold it to me?? and demand a new one?
     
  11. trevor g

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    five year old panny dbs30 jvchrs7955svhs perfect
     
  12. ajb

    ajb
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    Customer Services Manager
    Sky Subscriber Services Limited
    6 Centaurs Business Park
    Grant Way
    Isleworth
    MIDDLESEX
    TW7 5QD

    Dear Sir

    Account No [insert number]

    I write further to my telephone conversation with three of your agents earlier today.

    I purchased Sky+ in [date] for the sum of £199.00 plus £1.00 installation. The order was placed online and was confirmed in your email dated 21st September 2003. Installation of a brand new and boxed Sky+ digibox duly occurred without event on 5th October 2003.

    A couple of weeks ago, I was viewing BBCi through the Sky+ digibox and I pressed the ‘Sky’ button on the remote control to leave the BBCi service and return to viewing television. I was met with a blue screen and the Sky+ digibox was stuck in standby. Despite my best efforts to rectify the problem, we were left with no alternative other than to contact you and ask for an Engineer to visit. The Engineer was booked for 1st February 2004.

    My son received a telephone call from the Engineer at approximately 9.00am on 1st February 2004. Upon my son’s enquiry, he was informed by the Engineer that our Sky+ digibox would be replaced with a reconditioned digibox. My son explained to the Engineer that this was not satisfactory and the Engineer explained that he did not have any new Sky+ digiboxes, only reconditioned units.

    Thereafter, my son telephoned 08702 432480 to seek your advice. The position was explained in detail to the first agent, to [insert name] (we understand him to be a supervisor in the Sky+ department) and to [insert name] of Customer Care. My son explained the inconvenience we were experiencing, to include the loss of all programmes on the Sky+ digibox at the time of its failure, inability to record episodes of various dramas which had now been missed and inability to record the Superbowl. My son explained the legal position and was met with a truly unsatisfactory response- namely that this matter could only be resolved by writing to you. My son suggested that the Engineer swap the failed Sky+ digibox for a reconditioned unit on a temporary basis. This unit could in due course be swapped for a brand new and boxed Sky+ digibox or the initial unit when satisfactorily repaired. None of your agents agreed to this suggestion. The only offer received was that of one month of free viewing. This offer was rejected and is rejected.

    A further telephone call was made by the Engineer to my son at approximately 4.00pm on 1st February 2004. During this conversation, the Engineer revealed that the reconditioned unit which he proposed to install was a reconditioned old model and not even a reconditioned Pace BSKYB 3100 unit. My son explained the position concerning the earlier conversation with your agents and the Engineer encouraged my son to not accept a reconditioned unit, even stating that he had experienced the same problem himself. The Engineer suggested that he cancel his visit to my home and my son agreed with this suggestion. I now have a non-functioning Sky+ digibox which has not been replaced in any form. I am not prepared to allow this situation to continue.

    At paragraph A1(b) of your terms and conditions, you state that ‘Sky will select the make and model of equipment to be supplied to you at its discretion’. You chose to issue me with a Pace BSKYB 3100 Sky+ digibox. Your 12 month warranty is detailed at paragraph A2 and more particularly, at paragraph A2(b) you state that ‘if you have bought your Sky+ Satellite Equipment from Sky, Sky will replace a faulty part or your Sky+ Set Top Box if a reported fault cannot be remedied by one of our engineers during a visit to your Address. Any replacement equipment will be new or 'as new' (previously used equipment that has been refurbished by the manufacturer). Sky will warrant any repair or replacement until the later of the end of the 12 month warranty period or 3 months from the date it was carried out.’ I will return to this point later.

    At paragraph C4 of your terms and conditions, you state that the contract is ‘governed by English law’.

    I refer to the Sale of Goods Act 1979 as amended by The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. The most recent amendments came into force on 31st March 2003 and as such, these provisions govern your contract with me. It is not possible for you to contract out of your obligations under this Act as you attempt to do at paragraph A2(b) of your terms and conditions. I reproduce below the complete text of section 48 of the Act:

    ‘48A Introductory

    (1) This section applies if -
    (a) the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, there is a consumer contract in which the buyer is a consumer, and
    (b) the goods do not conform to the contract of sale at the time of delivery.

    (2) If this section applies, the buyer has the right -
    (a) under and in accordance with section 48B below, to require the seller to repair or replace the goods, or
    (b) under and in accordance with section 48C below -
    (i) to require the seller to reduce the purchase price of the goods to the buyer by an appropriate amount, or
    (ii) to rescind the contract with regard to the goods in question.

    (3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so conformed at that date.

    (4) Subsection (3) above does not apply if -
    (a) it is established that the goods did so conform at that date;
    (b) its application is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.
    48B Repair or replacement of the goods

    (1) If section 48A above applies, the buyer may require the seller -
    (a) to repair the goods, or
    (b) to replace the goods.

    (2) If the buyer requires the seller to repair or replace the goods, the seller must -
    (a) repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the buyer;
    (b) bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

    (3) The buyer must not require the seller to repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods if that remedy is -
    (a) impossible, or
    (b) disproportionate in comparison to the other of those remedies, or
    (c) disproportionate in comparison to an appropriate reduction in the purchase price under paragraph (a), or rescission under paragraph (b), of section 48C(1) below.

    (4) One remedy is disproportionate in comparison to the other if the one imposes costs on the seller which, in comparison to those imposed on him by the other, are unreasonable, taking into account -
    (a) the value which the goods would have if they conformed to the contract of sale,
    (b) the significance of the lack of conformity, and
    (c) whether the other remedy could be effected without significant inconvenience to the buyer.

    (5) Any question as to what is a reasonable time or significant inconvenience is to be determined by reference to -
    (a) the nature of the goods, and
    (b) the purpose for which the goods were acquired.

    48C Reduction of purchase price or rescission of contract

    (1) If section 48A above applies, the buyer may -
    (a) require the seller to reduce the purchase price of the goods in question to the buyer by an appropriate amount, or
    (b) rescind the contract with regard to those goods,
    if the condition in subsection (2) below is satisfied.

    (2) The condition is that -
    (a) by virtue of section 48B(3) above the buyer may require neither repair nor replacement of the goods; or
    (b) the buyer has required the seller to repair or replace the goods, but the seller is in breach of the requirement of section 48B(2)(a) above to do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the buyer.

    (3) For the purposes of this Part, if the buyer rescinds the contract, any reimbursement to the buyer may be reduced to take account of the use he has had of the goods since they were delivered to him.
    48D Relation to other remedies etc.

    (1) If the buyer requires the seller to repair or replace the goods the buyer must not act under subsection (2) until he has given the seller a reasonable time in which to repair or replace (as the case may be) the goods.

    (2) The buyer acts under this subsection if -
    (a) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland he rejects the goods and terminates the contract for breach of condition;
    (b) in Scotland he rejects any goods delivered under the contract and treats it as repudiated;
    (c) he requires the goods to be replaced or repaired (as the case may be).

    48E Powers of the court

    (1) In any proceedings in which a remedy is sought by virtue of this Part the court, in addition to any other power it has, may act under this section.

    (2) On the application of the buyer the court may make an order requiring specific performance or, in Scotland, specific implement by the seller of any obligation imposed on him by virtue of section 48B above.

    (3) Subsection (4) applies if -
    (a) the buyer requires the seller to give effect to a remedy under section 48B or 48C above or has claims to rescind under section 48C, but
    (b) the court decides that another remedy under section 48B or 48C is appropriate.

    (4) The court may proceed -
    (a) as if the buyer had required the seller to give effect to the other remedy, or if the other remedy is rescission under section 48C
    (b) as if the buyer had claimed to rescind the contract under that section.

    (5) If the buyer has claimed to rescind the contract the court may order that any reimbursement to the buyer is reduced to take account of the use he has had of the goods since they were delivered to him.

    (6) The court may make an order under this section unconditionally or on such terms and conditions as to damages, payment of the price and otherwise as it thinks just.


    48F Conformity with the contract

    For the purposes of this Part, goods do not conform to a contract of sale if there is, in relation to the goods, a breach of an express term of the contract or a term implied by section 13, 14 or 15 above.’

    For the purposes of my contract with you, I acted and continue to act as a consumer. With reference to section 48A(3), the Sky+ digibox supplied to me does not conform to the contract of sale by virtue of the statutory implied terms at section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 as the Sky+ digibox is not fit for purpose nor free from minor defects nor durable.

    My remedies under the contract are set out in the aforesaid statutory extract. I require you to either (1) repair my Sky+ digibox (serial number noted) within a reasonable time and without causing significant inconvenience to me and you must bear any necessary costs incurred in so doing or (2) replace my Sky+ digibox with a brand new and boxed Sky+ digibox of type Pace BSKYB 3100. Should you not satisfy me in this regard, I propose to rescind the contract and claim damages from you.

    This letter is written pursuant to paragraph 4 of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Protocols which states that ‘the court will expect the parties, in accordance with the overriding objective… to act reasonably in exchanging information and documents relevant to the claim and generally in trying to avoid the necessity for the start of proceedings.’

    I expect your written acknowledgment of this letter within 7 days and your substantive response within 21 days. Court proceedings will be issued if a substantive response is not received within the time period aforesaid.

    I await hearing from you.

    Yours faithfully
     
  13. ajb

    ajb
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    Starkiller

    I would be tempted to send something similar to the above to Sky.

    Hope this helps
    Andrew
     
  14. Starkiller

    Starkiller
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    Andrew

    Thank you very much for the above, I am in the process of writing a letter, so this will be very usefull.

    I also Hope others that have simalar problems will be able to use this too, and not accept Sky's bullish stand on this

    Thanks again :)

    Dave
     
  15. Cynthia 7

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    Hi Starkiller,

    After reading Andy's brilliant legal advice I have been wondering about the outcome of your contact with Sky. I am pretty sure they just won't fob you off with a poor box again.

    Please let us know the outcome, good or bad!
     
  16. krismcewan

    krismcewan
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    I had a mate that used to work for Sky as an engineer before he went solo.
    He told me that proper Sky engineers always used New boxes but when he became a contractor he has always received refurbs.

    He put this down to the days when Sky started using contractors for engineer visits and them "swapping" the occasional used model for new ones and selling the new ones.

    A contractor didnt worry about installing a faulty unit in a new install because Sky would send him another new box to replace and of course he got a second fee for that too.

    I dont know how widespread this was and if it still goes on with Sky+ boxes but if you look on ebay you see alot of sky+ boxes going for £250-£300. Some of them may be a dishonest engineer.

    I dont know what kind of controlls Sky has about returning faulty boxes. No doubt they have something in place that would prevent this. But you never know these days.
     
  17. alwoody

    alwoody
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    Persistance can pay
    My email.
    "Dear Sir,
    In November 2003 I purchased a new Sky+ digibox. Within about 2 months it had developed a fault. You sent an engineer out who agreed it was faulty and changed it for a reconditioned box.

    The reconditioned box had a mind of it's own, it would shut itself down, lose recorded programs, freeze, pixilate and was a real pain. I complained and you sent an engineer out, he agreed it was faulty and changed it again for a reconditioned box. This was last Friday 26/03/2004.

    On Saturday we were watching a program we had recorded earlier and had bad interference on the sound but thought it was a one off. On Sunday I recorded a football match but when fast forwarding it the picture keeps freezing. I am convinced that the Hard drive has got bad sectors on it, which was possibly the reason the previous owner had it changed.

    This morning I have contacted you again by phone. You are sending an engineer out again, this time on 1/04/2004. We have told the supervisor who we spoke to that we are not prepared to accept another reconditioned box because they are not of merchantable quality and want what I paid £200 for and that is a NEW box"

    The Sky reply
    "Thank you for your email about your Sky+

    Firstly, please accept my apologies for the lack of service you have received so far, please be assured that this is not a reflection of the high standard of customer service we pride ourselves on.

    On checking our records, I can ascertain that you have had several service calls which have been unable to resolve your technical issues.

    In light of this I would like to arrange a special care manager who works for the customer care department to visit you. As regards receiving a new Sky+ box, the manager involved has the authority to issue you with a new box if need be.

    I have arranged a provisional booking for Monday 05/04/04, I will verify this date with you in the next few days. If another date is more suitable please email me at the above address.

    I trust that this information has been useful and if I can be of further assistance, please email me again at the above address."


    My reply
    "Thank you for your email. Monday 5/4/04 will be fine if you can confirm it.

    Your engineer called again this morning to have a look at the reconditioned box that I currently have. I showed him the problems on this one and he agreed that the hard drive is a bad one.

    However he only had yet another reconditioned box with him and as I said both on the telephone and by email I am not prepared to accept another one. I told him I would wait for your special care manager to call on the 5th.

    Does anyone check the work being done by whoever repairs these boxes? Being a maintenance man myself I would be in big trouble with my bosses if I turned out such shoddy workmanship."

    The Sky reply
    "Thank you for your email about your service call.

    I can confirm (my name) that I have had confirmation that our special care manager will visit you on the 05/04/04. He will call you either Sunday evening or Monday morning to give you an estimated time of arrival.

    I trust that this information has been useful and if I can be of further assistance, please email me again at the above address.

    Yours sincerely

    My reply
    "I received a service call today but it was from a Sky service engineer not the special care manager you said would be calling. He did however state that he was a "proper sky engineer" and not a contractor.
    Anyway after checking everything again and agreeing we had a faulty box he made a phone call and got authorisation to fit a brand new box.
    This is now up and running so I want to thank you for your help. I just hope that this box doesn't give me any problems for a while at least.
    I still think that within the first 6 months after buying a new box, if it develops a fault it should be temporarily replaced with a reconditioned box until a repair is carried out and then the new box returned, or a new box fitted straight away. That is what is stated in the Sale of goods act.
    Anyway I am satisfied with the eventual outcome. Thanks."

    THE SAGA ENDS FOR NOW
    :clap:
     
  18. DRGL

    DRGL
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    Not wishing to tar everyone with the same brush but when i worked for Sky (actually employed by Sky) the sub-contractors were a load of useless good for nothings.They would "install" as many systems as they could,not really giving two hoots if they worked as us real employees would always get the service calls. Sadly,as sky pay such rediculous wages all the good lads moved on to better well paid jobs.........pay peanuts and all that :)
     
  19. Kano

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    My machine has frozen and have tried all the recommended procedures. An engineer will be turning up next week.

    I may have lost 18 hours of recording. Very annoyed.

    I do not want my machine to be replaced with a refurb unit.

    Has anyone here had come backs from Sky and what were the results ?

    I need info to pursue my complaint.

    Thanks for your help.

    Alkan
     

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