Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Feb 12, 2009.
Was referring (perhaps incorrectly) to the Panasonic PX600 models.
The point was its just another case of buying into something because of the brand rather then the inherent need you may have for that product. Something we all indulge in, not just the "rich" guy who buys a Kuro to watch old Postman Pat videos.
You ever looked at how much trainers cost to make? How much do you think the latest trainers would RRP at if we weren't prepared to pay £100 for a pair?
You've had a little moan that some rich guy hangs a couple of plasma's on his wall that he doesn't make full use off and therefore deprives those that could make use of them. And I'm pointing out that if we look honestly at ourselves and our family I think we all do the same thing.
P.S. I don't think I need to lighten up, its not as though I'm having a rant and rave. Just providing a perspective from the other side of the fence.
Must be having a slow Sunday, you've lost me a bit with the pricing comp there
I know the 65" Pannys have held to an extent, but there wasn't much competition in that sector. Unless you were prepared to pay "new car" sort of money that was the biggest you could get.
Looking at 60"> haven't prices from all manufacturers been coming down. So are you saying the differential between Kuro's and the rest hase decreased?
I haven't been following Kuro prices so closely until recently so am unsure myself. Just think they command a reasonably healthy margin over the rest at this point.
Also I see your point about the effect of price cutting on consumers, but the extreme opposite is that you maintain your price while competitors drop theres and price yourself out of the market.
Yes, we could have done with a bit of collective price fixing by the manufacturers
The thing is, the Kuro is so much better than anything else, and I think most of the cutomers who buy one, would pay more, so long as the price is even across the board.
It's getting absolutely ridiculous with the TV market. Retailers aren't making money from them. It has to be pile em high, sell em cheap mentality.
I have to say my 20 year old B&O mx6000 produces an astonishing picture vastly better than any hd tv i've seen trying to scale to sd.....On the other hand it could never display HD but then thats what a Kuro is for....
I was planning for my TV to be 1SF'd. Perhaps by ******** if he kindly obliges.
Anyway, I'm curious as to how ISF prices will be affected. I should imagine a discount of some descripton is reasonable.
Good CRTs still rule the roost for SD.
Seems to me that the disagreements within this thread epitomise the reasons why this news is so very bad. The way that those on the "I don't see why this is a problem" side of the argument persistently miss the point the other side making is, effectively, the very point they're trying to make.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Pio who would prefer to pay less or doesn't like the company. Nobody is suggesting that all manufacturers put up their prices to the detriment of the majority in order to satisfy the minority. The problem is that now those of us who are happy to pay that premium will no longer be able to do so. Maybe we are only 1%, or 0.1%, or less, of the populous, but does that make it right or good to remove the choice?
Just as Freeview is worse than it needs to be, but is adequate for those who know no better. Just as an mp3 encoded with an old/bad encoder sounds poor, but is "the same" to 99% of people who are listening to it on a mobile phone on the bus. Just as an over-compressed AVI of a ripped-off pre-release of a film is good enough to watch for those who refuse to pay for the proper DVD or a cinema ticket. Just as some people think you'd be mental to buy decent food when you can buy value-brand food in the budget supermarket. And so on ad nauseam.
If you remove the ability for people to choose, you'll find something soon enough that will impact one of your own preferences. The trend is widespread and troubling and definitely represents a backward step.
I bought a Pio PDP-4280XD largely on faith as the PQ was rubbish in the shops. After taking the time and effort to set it up properly, calibrate it, etc, I am very glad I chose it. I accept not everyone would care or pay a premium for it, but what do I do now if it breaks or when it becomes obsolete? "I'm alright Jack, doesn't affect me, I don't see why you'd pay for better PQ" is not going to help is it?
I would have no qualms buying the set, why not?
Do they have a track record of breaking down after five minutes? Answer is NO!
So why the worry?
I too would have no qualms in buying it now. My own 4+ year old 5th generation 435 has never given me a moment's problem, other than the Sky HD/HDCP issue, which Pioneer sorted out FOC, even although the set was well out of guarantee.
Believe it or not...ISF calibration was possible on tv's long before Pioneer put ISF preset modes in to theirs....and currently Samsung LCD tv's have probably got the best calibration capabilities of any tv out there and they don't have ISF preset capability. So I can't see one manufacturers disappearance having an effect on costs. It still takes the same time or longer to others. As it stands there are very few sets from any manufacturer that cannot be calibrated.
While it is a sad to see another company pull out of TV's, you must look on the bright side:
There is plenty more fish in the sea
I hear what your saying but how many people who pay 600-1000 on a tv pay 300 to get it calibrated ? Now if you have spent 4 LARGE you probably will
Brilliant point, especially about using mp3 an an example. This is exactly how i feel.
Ironically this post is absolutely spot on and neither Pseudo or Random
No Stuart what you have my friend is a sharp
I am really sorry that Pioneer have pulled out of Plasma. Considering the current state of the worlds economy more and companies are having to shelf development of non profit making parts of business to survive. They say what goes around comes around maybe when the worlds economies pick up again that we will see the return developemnts like Kuro and maybe even a new and better Concorde !
I hope so. Still in the meantime for those how have epxerienced the pleasures let us be thankful.
David/Tricia happy and proud owners of 436XDE LX508 and LX6090
I'm fairly new to the forum but I have been lurking on long enough to pick up this nasty superiority eminating from plasma camp towards LCD users. It is highly derogatory to slant somebody for their choice of AV equipment. It is also very contraproductive for people asking for help with buying when threads disitigrate into fights over preferances. In the ideal world both camps would co-exist in peace and friendly banter...
Rant over... Coincidentaly on the demise of my trusty CRT, I had to replace it with a 37incher (as that is the space LIMIT) and in spite of having enough funds to strech to top of the range plasma (Pioneer) - I couldn't as there is no Pioneer in 37in, so had to buy a Pioneer LCD... I preffer it to 37in Panasonic Plasma. So I can say I'm sad that I never will experience the quality of Pioneer Plasmas, although my heart goes to the people who lost their jobs first and foremost - to us, its only a telly...
Unfortunately Panasonic's focus will not be on top end panels according to this part of the interview below.
Full interview at:
Q&A: Panasonic to Push Back Panel Production, Focus on Low Price TVs -- Tech-On!
Q&A: Panasonic to Push Back Panel Production, Focus on Low Price TVs
Feb 10, 2009 16:38
Atsushi Takano, Nikkei Monozukuri
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Volume production schedules delayed at new panel plants?
Q: President Fumio Otsubo said Panasonic would consider delaying the volume production schedules for its plants in Himeji (LCD panel plant run by its affiliate IPS Alpha Technology Ltd's) and Amagasaki (Panasonic's fifth PDP plant) at the new-year meeting in January 2009. Did you decide their specific schedules?
Uenoyama: As for the Himeji Plant, it is likely to start volume production in July 2010, instead of January 2010 we initially projected. This was rescheduled after the new-year meeting. The Amagasaki Plant will start its test operation in November 2009, delayed from May 2009, and volume production in January 2010, as we announced last time.
Q: After the economic downturn, do you think demand will strengthen as before? How have the demand trends changed inside and outside Japan?
Uenoyama: This is my personal opinion, but I don't think things will return to how they were before. At present, low price products are selling better than luxury products. Taking cars as an example, consumers will probably prefer hybrids to standard cars even if demand returns. Assuming that luxury cars won't necessarily sell well even if the economy improves, I think that consumers will take the same stance toward home appliances. So, we must enhance our product lineup in the low price range.
Q: Will you shift more production to overseas, if the yen continues to be strong as it is now?
Uenoyama: Because we have already shifted quite a large portion of our production to overseas, it is unlikely for us to make a drastic change from now. However, we are planning to continue to bring TV modules and assemble more TVs overseas. Also, as our home appliances (white goods) business is very stable and we are planning to operate it globally, we may manufacture our products in that segment overseas as part of that strategy.
Q: If you are focusing on products in the low price range, only the operation of the Amagasaki Plant is needed to be delayed. And you can start rolling out LCD panels at your Himeji Plant on schedule because 32V-inch class TVs fall in that price range. Moreover, if TVs are your core business, can you think about releasing OLED TVs earlier than scheduled for variety's sake?
Uenoyama: It's true that 32V- and 37V-inch TVs sell well and account for quite a large stake of our overall TV output. But the Mobara Plant is the main manufacturing cite for panels of those sizes, and it will continue to mass-produce them. In addition, as we will only delay the Himeji Plant's volume production for six months, the impact will be minor.
We are continuing our OLED development, but the market will not change at once. We are developing the technology not to lag behind our rivals and to be able to respond to the market when a drastic change takes place. In light of the current market, we are not at all considering intentionally accelerating our development.
I was at John Lewis yesterday in Bristol, and had a wander into the TV section
They had some great looking Sony LCD's setup with a fantastic 1080p feed showing some Casino Royale scenes which looked amazing for a LCD
Then in amongst the hundreds of screens they have there, they had a 6090 Kuro - which to my disgust was running a composite SD feed
How on earth do they think they will sell screens of the size and price of the 6090 if they aren't even letting it do its thing?
I'm very saddened at the death of KURO. I was hoping to maybe wait for a 10G maybe to replace my LX5080D 8 Gen Kuro, but now this won't happen, and i can no way afford a new screen for at least a year, maybe two, so hopefully my current screen will last (got a 5 yr D&G warranty anyway)
Technology does move on at a pace though, so in 3/4 yrs time, I'm sure there will be something to rival or better the KURO's, but at what price
The recession will have a massive effect on all these high end products and lots more companies will follow suit i fear
I'm just glad i got my KURO when i could, as i would not be able to afford one now
The forum seems a little flaky at the moment. I've been trying to reply to PseudoRandom's post. Seem to be allowed finally.
I disagree with your assertion that choice has been removed from the market. On the contrary, the market has spoken. Not enough people are prepared to pay the premium prices demanded for these top-end plasmas. Moreover, despite charging premium prices, Pioneer has been unable to persuade enough people to pay ther premium prices to make the business pay.
Essentially, like the dinosaur, Pioneer plasmas are about to become extinct because they have failed to adapt to the marketplace by either reducing prices or improving profit per unit through manufacturing efficiencies. They needed to fit their business model to the size of the market. The market for £3k tellies is, I'm afraid, pretty small. For the price of a 55" Kuro, it's possible to buy a superb 1080p projector. I know which I'd rather have if I could only have one.
It's sad that many people will lose their jobs as a result but no industry is immune from obsolesence or being undercut by cheaper rivals. Just look at what cheap outsourcing has done to the IT industry in the UK for example, not to mention things like shipbuilding in the past.
Mind you, having said that, if I can pick up an end-of-line 55" Kuro for, say, a grand, in the next 6 months I might consider giving it house room.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you can get a 55" KURO, or are you including the speakers in your measurements?
The choice clearly will be removed (unless someone comes along with something equally good in the meantime) because the TVs that they were producing will no longer be available, and it is widely regarded that none of the remaining ones are as good. An indisputable reduction in choice for the consumer, by definition.
Of course you are entitled to hold an opinion that they are not actually any better, or that they are overpriced for little benefit. And you are quite correct in your assertion that market forces have resulted in these products being uneconomical to make. I dispute none of this, my post was about the consequences of that happening.
It is actually because the prices are at a premium. A very large majority of people have no concern for quality or experience and just pick things based on price. A colleague of mine will spend hours and hours trawling for holiday deals, selecting one over another even if it is only a couple of pounds cheaper. Provided the flight goes to the right country and is for the correct number of days, he looks no harder. Others might worry about the quality of the hotel, the convenience of the flight, the reputation of the resort. The obvious parallel here being that some people are interested in more than headline feature-sets on TVs.
Pio could make the books balance, if they charged enough. However, that price would be outside the reach of virtually everyone, thus further reducing the target audience, so requiring higher prices, and so on. As an earlier poster said, you then end up with a market where you have only the very low end or the very high end with nothing in the middle. I can't see how anyone thinks that is a good thing.
I expect they could have made them a little more profitable, but you can only take it so far. The reason why the competing brands are so cheap is because they've improved profit by removing layer after layer of quality. Poorer image quality and reduced reliability is the "cheap and plasticky" of TV-land. Pio are not the first to throw in the towel, which shows it's not just a case of being an old-fashioned inflexible company, it also about whether you want to be in a business shovelling out high-volume low-quality dross.
For starters, £3k gets you a half reasonable projector, not a superb one. Try adding another zero to that to get a "superb" one. Secondly, not everyone wants to sit in a pitch-black dedicated AV room to view TV. Thirdly, to make an effective PJ setup you may need expensive screens and motorised anamorphic lenses. Finally, the upkeep of a projector is an expensive business with bulbs at £250+ a pop.
I'll take the high-quality TV, thank you! (See, that's called choice...)
This quote only refers to LCD, Panasonic develop LCD & Plasma products in separate factories.
For Plasma Panasonic are very much pushing ahead with the launch of the High End Home Cinema models TH-65VX100E and TH-50VX100E and their continued commitment to Neo Plasma the next revolution in Plasma displays
The 65VX100 and 50VX100 along with the awesome 103" plasma will all be on display at Bristol Sound & Vision Show this weekend
In the grand scheme of things, nothing much changes in the TV due to the demise of Pioneer plasma. So relatively few people bought them that for the majority of people choice remains more or less the same. LED backlit LCDs are comparable now to Pioneer plasmas for all but the fanatical plasma fans. Plasma is, more less, an evolutionary dead end now and I can't imagine Panasonic sticking with it to the point where it's no longer profitable.
I'm sure even the most fanatical Pioneer plasma lover would baulk at the prices needed to make their business work. I rather suspect that Pioneer clung to the market for a little longer than was prudent and is, unfortunately, paying the price. That's business.
Wholly disagree. Unless you have a dedicated home cinema room, a £2k projector will provide a superb, large image that can't be improved upon much by spending double or more the money simply because the environment is unlikely to be dark enough unless you're a Goth with a penchant for black walls, furniture and carpets.
Each to their own. At least it should virtually eliminate the plasma trolls in the LCD forum. See, there's always a silver lining.
IMO, this is a generalisation based more on the superiority complex some people in this hobby have, then actual fact.
Other manufacturers make TV's in the same price bracket as the Kuro and are still doing so today. Why haven't they fallen victim to this "very large majority of people" who will only buy the cheapest TV?
The simple answer is, that price is not the only determining factor. The Kuro is well within the budget of the consumers who keep the likes of the "top end" Sony panels in production.
A hint to one of the reasons Kuro failed was posted on the very same page as your post (see post #171). The failure of Kuro, is as much the fault of Pioneers inability to market thier product correctly, as the bargain hunting hoards.
Making the best product is pointless if half your target market don't know it exists. Let alone that it's the best.
They needed to invest in decent displays in mainstream stores. They needed to invest in "reviews" by the mainstream media. They needed to stop chasing yourself and the other "enthusiasts" who would buy the Kuro in any case.
The rest of this post and your previous post leaves me a little confused what your asking for here.
Foregoing the aforementioned comments on Pioneers failures in marketing/etc, they are not a charity. They needed to make a profit from the Kuro. They tried to do it at the current price point and failed. That doesn't leave many options, either stop making Kuro's, increase the price or reduce costs.
Your posts come accross as someone who wants to have their cake and eat it. You don't think raising the price to a sustainable level was an acceptable answer. You don't want to compromise on quality. Essentially you want your Kuro at the price your prepared to pay. Unfortunately we could all say the same about many other products.
BTW, haven't you essentially painted yourself as the same bargain hunting group your bemoaning?
Your friend wants the cheapest flight which fits his criteria. You want the cheapest TV that fits your criteria.
He could pay for a First class flight and get "quality". You could buy one of the professional panels and get the "quality" you desire. Neither of you are prepared to do so though.
This is brilliant.
How on earth do you come to the above conclusion? I would genuinely like to know?
A real case of wishful thinking, I think
Couldn't have said it better. There will always be a market for quality eg Porsche, Aston Martin, Rolex, Breitling etc etc.
It's just a shame that Pioneer couldn't weather the storm.
And for people who are saying that their sets were expensive I remember drooling over the 43in sets in Selfridges when they were c. £5k not that many years ago!!
Sad this the standard was set with pionner I.e class and everyone else was crawling up to there, now this has happened the Plasma/Lcd market may slow down in tech gains
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