KURO is dead! A sad day for AV Fans….

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. supersneak

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    All ready to be shot down in flames here, but after the 7 series "dirty screen" fiasco and the response by Pioneer, they won't missed by me and I suspect many others. Premium product, premium price, but third rate service at best. Pioneer left the dealers to carry the can for their defective product line.
     
  2. plasmawithchips

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    As usual a lot of sense and a lot of rubbish spoken here.

    The sense:



    1. It is a sad day to see another maker pull out of plasma but the reality is that Pioneer did not have the size or market share to compete.
    2. The real tragedy is that so many more people will lose their jobs.
    3. Most people don't know what they are seeing and will buy any old crap.
    4. The manufacturers and retailers are mostly to blame.

    The rubbish

    1. That you only need a high end display for Movies. WRONG Television uses most of the same standards and techniques in production and post production as movies. A crap display for movies is a crap display FULLSTOP.

    2. Kuro's were perfect. Sorry but although the absolute black level is always mentioned, reviewers never mention the loss of subtle detail often seen close to black (I should say that no LCD has any detail close to black).

    3. OLEDs will save the day....Maybe one day you will be watching a 200" OLED TV with a lifetime of 500,000 hours but .....sudden reality check kicks in. The lifetime of current OLEDs is so low that the blue LEDs last less that 5000 hours. Until this is fixed forget it. Oh and did I mention that it is very hard to make large OLEDs?

    4. Lets talk about LCDs? Great the new LCDs will have LED backlights. This is good for two reasons, improved colour gamut and no mercury. Unfortunately it does not solve the response time issue.


    So there are some good projectors out there and some very good plasma displays (some are not even Pioneer). If you have a Kuro, enjoy it. If you don't, make an informed choice for your next screen.

    Read the reviews carefully both here and elsewhere. Check previous reviews to see if there is a built in bias towards or against a certain brand.

    Spend some time looking at a number of displays under normal living room conditions before deciding. Then buy the right product.

    Remember, with Audio, a poor system will often result in "listening tiredness" and a poor display will result in "viewing tiredness "or even headaches.

    If after all this you buy a big LCD then make and appointment to see your optician (it is a joke honest).

    Finally, and to get back to reality, the Kuro range are great screens and it is a shame that there will be no more.

    Lets all hope that the other companies take up that standard and that possibly Panasonic's "toe in the water" professional screens (TH-65VX100 as reviewed by David McKenzie in December) and other offerings begin to fill the void.
     
  3. ChildOfRarn

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    For those hoping that Panasonic could pick up the baton

    From Reuters
     
  4. Prowse

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    I would be surprised; I am in the market for a new panel and it was between Pioneer, Sony or Samsung. I won't be buying Pioneer despite what they say about support.

    It's a shame that they've gone, but their displays were not perfect (none are) and retailed at a premium price. I'd expect more mid-high-end a-v/hi-fi suppliers to go to the wall over the next year. It's one of the markets that does well when people have cash available, but suffers terribly during a recession.
     
  5. SoundByte

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    It is odd why people are often driven to comment on something they have no actual experience of. Presumably driven by envy, or perhaps self-justification having bought something different - e.g. I bought a Sony, it must be best, therefore Pioneer must be c**p ...

    Yes they are out of the price range of most of us.

    But it is undeniable that anyone with reasonable eyesight, viewing a properly set-up 9th generation Kuro running a quality HD source, will be astonished at the picture quality. There is nothing that "comes close enough".

    At this point in time it just happens to be the best by a very considerable margin.

    Those who tell otherwise have not actually seen it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
  6. Suave

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    Hi,

    Whatever one's view are about how Pioneer conducted itself or was/was not to blame etc, separate the product from the company and it is clear that KURO had no equal that was commercially available to the general buying public.

    The question now remains, although Pioneer has departed the FPTV arena, will KURO do the same (in whatever guise(s) it may manifest in. It all depends if someone has taken it over, expressed an interest in obtaining it or if secret deals have already taken place. Fujitsu also had superior processing and tech at the time - whatever happened to it - no one really knows. Let's hope Pioneer are still able to make some money from Kuro and offer the reigns to someone else who can make the legacy live on in some way.

    Suave!
     
  7. StooMonster

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    Pioneer "Elite" plasma and KURO LCD owner here, I was saddened to hear this news.

    Who will make the 'quality' displays now?

    StooMonster
     
  8. eiren

    eiren
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    Vidikron? Best get saving now :(
     
  9. Legion20XX

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    I have made an order on a KRP-500A. It will have to do many years now. I am honestly heartbroken.

    Goodbye KURO.
     
  10. Member 639844

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    Holy crap, im gonna have to get one sharpish now!!!!!!!
     
  11. Bluedan

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    Everyone seems to be forgetting that Panasonic have already launched a product to replace the Kuro monitors. The very well received TH-65VX100E and TH-50VX100E that on this very forum received a recommended status

    Panasonic TH-65VX100 Professional Plasma Monitor Review review at AVForums.com

    Remember this product was developed by the engineers Panasonic employed from Pioneer last year after they announced they would stop in house screen development.

    If you want to see these screens in the flesh they will be on display at the Bristol Sound & Vision Show next week.
     
  12. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Because Pioneer promoted high and accurate standards, and high standards benefit everyone, whether it's direct or whether they're aware of them are not.
     
  13. aritter

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    thats good news. maybe they make better Tv sets in future...


    :clap:
     
  14. albani

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    Hi

    -Game is over!
    -Its not "rumor"!
    -But do not hesitate to buy a KURO unit as well:smashin:
    Buy Quality&elegance!
    So just close your ears for the rumors and some of "Pio legends"!

    Bye++
     
  15. AndrewH13

    AndrewH13
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    Ive had Sony X LCD series for over a year and purchased a Kuro before xmas. I currently have both and the difference is enormous.

    If you are after a quick fix during the day or major on PC gaming, then the Sony is fine (accepting a smoky blotchiness in background and a backlight setting of zero which still prevents black in the evening).

    If you actually like movies in any kind of subdued lighting, please dont make the mistake I did, being taken in by mag ratings/comments on improved blacks and only having demoed myself in a bright room. Can only recommend to get a Pioneer while you can.
     
  16. Craig uk

    Craig uk
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    Disagree..having worked in a pioneer service centre and currently working for a company who sells their products I've seen many,8 and 9 gens. General opinion in my circles was these sets weren't that far ahead of the best offerings from panasonic and sony.

    I must say I've never seen an ISF calibrated one so I couldn't say just how good they could look. But calibration would not solve some of the flaws that kuro's were plagued with, retention, dirty screen and unexplained artifacts produced when testing the panels image response.

    Colour gradation and black level are where these sets really excel in my opinion:)
     
  17. ISHANTY

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    i'm not sad they are gone it's thier own fault they could not make any money,they did make really good tv!!Price point they were too expensive to have the market share and thats their own fault and not the public.you can't have proucts sitting on selves looking good but can't sell because they too expensive.Now maybe this year i may get a bargain
     
  18. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Care to tell us exactly what these tests were and how you saw retention when running teh sets correctly, as I have run extensive testing and calibration on Pioneer screens and have yet to see anything that would give me that impression.
     
  19. Craig uk

    Craig uk
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    It was run with a panasonic blu ray image evaluation test disc which engineers use at work. Basically the disc has about 5 demo clips and 5 evaluation tests. We test all sets with it.

    The most recent test was done on a 6090 which clearly had a dirty screen and demonstrated a weird artifact on screen when running the response test. This could have been specific to this set, as we don't get many 60 inchers in I haven't been able to run the same tests on another set since.

    I posted a more detailed report in the lcd forum, in the sony z4500 thread, post 341.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
  20. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Was it the FPD disc? Not to throw what you're saying out or anything, but since the disc is 1080i/60, you're not talking about Deinterlacing artefacts?

    Not blindly saying "How dare you suggest a Pioneer TV could have a flaw!" or anything, just making sure :thumbsup:
     
  21. NW3

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    Whilst I am sad to read of Pioneer's withdrawal from the market as it will definitely result in a slower pace of development of plasma technology I have no doubt that in a few years time we will see screens capable of much more than the current Kuro sets.

    Unfortunately Pioneer's business model was floored in my opinion. By selling TV's at a high price point they were immediately ruling out probably 80+ percent of the market and then of the say 20 percent of the market that could afford a Pioneer a large chunk of those either are not that bothered about picture quality or go to somewhere like John Lewis so they dont see the sets in their full glory. A huge issue for Pioneer was undoubtedly that a tiny % of retailers are capable of demonstrating TV's at anything like their full potential.

    Pile it high sell it cheap is a business model that is very hard to compete with when most customers never get to see how much better your premium priced product is.

    It will be very interesting to see if Matsush*ta/Panasonic but the IP from Pioneer. I suspect not because unless it actually improves their profitability per unit sold (which is unlikely) it doesn't make much economic sense for them in the short term. It would obviously save them money in the long term on R+D but companies aren't thinking about the long term right now.
     
  22. Oakleyspatz

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    A definite step backwards for TV technology. It seems just yesterday that the Kuro range was launched now it's ending. It's a sad day when technological innovators such as Pioneer have to bow out to cheap and cheerful money makers.
    I think we'll be looking to RGB LED as a possible alternative to the excellent blacks of the Kuro range, such as the Sharp LC52XS1E with it's claimed 100,000:1 Contrast Ratio, superwide colour gamut and the thinnest screen in the world at just 23mm thick.
    Just a shame it has to be an LCD and cost £9k!! :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
  23. 5to1

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    I'm afraid I can't agree Pioneer did a good job of providing people with a benchmark TV. For something to be an effective benchmark it has to be easily and readily available. Simply being the best is not enough. And as I stated previously that is why I believe Pioneer failed with Kuro.

    If you consider customers at the likes of DSG will purchase a £60-70 HDMI cable (just a facetious example, many others), I don't believe the differential in price was that important. The view is often fostered that the average consumer is bargain obsessed, but I think in many cases they are far more easily persuaded to cough up more for a better product.

    IMO this is where Pioneer failed. They targeted magazines/retailers which are frequented by people who would search out their product anyway. But they didn't bother to get their product out to the mainstream. What % of the TV buying public had a clue what Kuro was, or ever saw one working, let alone saw a properly calibrated Kuro working?

    Furthermore the argument put forward that Pioneer were keeping up the standards of other manufacturers is flawed. Simply making a better product doesn't force your competitors to improve their products, taking significant market share with a better product does. Clearly that is something Pioneer failed to do.
     
  24. David Mackenzie

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    Good points. I liked to think (OK, I still like to think) that other companies follow the example, though.
     
  25. plasmawithchips

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    :devil:Please beware of the specs especially with contrast ratios. LCDs usually quote the Dynamic Contrast ratio. Sometimes called Full on/Full off (ie black is measured with the back light off). While LEDs can give a higher contrast ratio, the methods by which this is achieved (100hz, 75Hz, 120 Hz and even 240Hz) can cause more artefacts to be produced.

    If you measure a Kuro in this way it would probably achieve 500,000:1 or higher.

    Some manufacturer's now quote Dynamic as well as "real" contrast ratios.
     
  26. plasmawithchips

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    Pioneer effectively stopped R&D some time ago and many of their engineers have left.

    Panasonic have been showing samples of their Neo (new) PDP that is due on the market this year.

    Make you think?
     
  27. Deleted member 92943

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    I was hoping for Pioneer to move into the LCD market.

    It's a shame they're not screens anymore but at least they're not going forever, but just appeal to the Boy Racer market :D
     
  28. chienmort

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    The Kuro Monitors and the TH-65VX100 form Panasonic are distributed by AWE.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2009
  29. Phil Hinton

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    chienmort and plasmawithchips can you please stop with your promotion of Panasonic and AWE. It doesn't take too many checks to see who you guys are, so please refrain from trying to promote and read the rules about declaring who you are.
    It's nice of you to take part on the forums, but lets do things above board please.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
  30. 5to1

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    With my consumer hat on, I would like to think the same :)
     

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