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Kryton wants a CRT

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Jeff, Sep 8, 2001.

  1. Jeff

    Jeff
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    OK, I'm going to turn my back on digital projectors and take the CRT route.I have quite a few problems that I need to overcome. The projector(s) that I have in mind are the Cine7 or the BD708. All video will be fed to the projector via Kryton (HCPC), I would like to run the projector in widescreen mode at a resolution of 1280x720, I'm not sure if this is too high for the 2 7" barcos. My room is tiny, its only 7 x 14ft and because of where the door is the viewing distance is going to be about 11ft max, I quite fancy a smallish screen, about 80" should do it. My major concerns are how the hell am I going to ceiling mount it considering that this is a converted garage and the ceiling is made of plasterboard, I guess that I'm going to have to install a beam of some sort to attach the ceiling mount to. My other major issue is noise, what I would like to do is enclose the projector by having a 2 level ceiling, with the back part of the room where the projector will be lowered and with the projector placed between the lowered ceiling and the garage roof. My first question is regarding throw ratio, for a 80" diagonal 16:9 screen how far back would the projector need to be? Secondly how do the 2 barcos cope with 1280x720@72 & 75Hz? All help truely appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Jeff
     
  2. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Jeff,

    Go to <a href="http://www.barco.com" target="_blank">www.barco.com</a> and download the lens program,this will help with you throw distances.

    You could also contact Roland Brooks (B4)

    [ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: THX 1138 /THX TEX ]</p>
     
  3. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Good choice, Jeff.<br />Some advice from experience. First 1280x720 I think is too high for the Barco. Non anamorphic may look ok, but when viewing anamorphic images, particularly on a smallish image will result in a soft picture. I'm fairly sure about that. It may be more than the 708 can do, anyway. <br />Second bit of advice is to follow the same thinking as with Kryton and do it ptoperly. If you want to go for a ceiling and you're not equipped with the appropriate bulding skills yourself, get professionals in.<br />Last bit of advice is with regard to viewing distance. Don't worry about it.<br />The picture from HCPC into CRT (all set up correctly, of course) is so good that you can sit 6 feet back from a 6 foot image and it's fine.
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Jeff:

    Welcome to my world.......CRT has you.....hahahaha

    The Cine7 at the Event was doing tripling (720P). Although it was likely to be 720 x 720. Scan lines were undoubtedly overlapping but it still looked pretty fabby!.

    I'd agree with Spectre though. Get Roland to do it all for you and then try 600P and 720P and see which is better.

    If you are building a HUSH box then make sure you have some form of forced air circulation built in to stop the poor thing cooking. Alternative ideas if you get a 708 would be to consider replacing the fans with alternate, quieter models.

    Gordon
     
  5. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Thanks guys, would I be right in saying that the main issue here is horizontal resolution. Does the throw distance and screen size have any baring on this?, I can't see how it could but I thought I'd check.

    I have started to soak in some AVS CRT forum stuff, I even found Chompys Ellie thread. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> The concensus over there apprears to be that with HTPC the benefit of higher resolution outways (just) the negative aspects of a slight overlap.

    Jeff
     
  6. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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  7. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Roland,

    Thanks for that, it sounds like Barco are a bit liberal with their specs (I know, who isn't). Quite a few people are getting very good results @ 1280x720 with the Dwin HD-700 (7" CRT) (can you trust the guys on AVS?), I was hoping that the Barco could match it. I think a 7" CRT really is the maximum size I can go for, unless you know of a smallish 8 incher, weight and height are the main issues. If the Cine7 can't resolve more that 700 vertical lines, does that mean that 800x600 in 16:9 mode is already beyond the projectors capabilities?

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
  8. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Jeff <br />It all comes down to spot size.<br />Having seen Kryton in action my above coments were to make sure that the PJ was not the limiting factor.<br />Barco 708 / Cine 7, Sony D50, Dwin ?<br />will all give very good pictures at 1280x720p

    But you are very close if not over the sweet spot for these machines.<br />Both Spectre and Jenz have used 708 at that resolution I would be interested in their coments.

    The 808 would be my choice on resolution match to performance of your box of tricks. But I apreciate that they are not small.
     
  9. Jeff

    Jeff
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    I'm sure that Jenz will correct me, but I thought his main problem was bandwidth i.e. he could only do 1024x768@60Hz, for HTPC and the Rock 72&75 Hz are important.

    Jeff
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    A slight side note re 60 hz vs 72 / 75 hz but relevant to Jeffs (and mine) iminent CRT projector purchases.

    What do the experts (Gordon, Roland, Richad A etc) think about 72 / 75 hz. Does this add to the picture or not. It may sound like a funny question but although the stutter free pans sound excellent I was less convinced in the demo than other things like colour / deinterlacing artifacts etc.

    Is 72 / 75 hz all it is cracked up to be? Or do you actually prefer 50 / 60 hz.
     
  11. JohnAd

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    Jeff

    Looks like there's no need for me to ask exactly the same questions. Thanks!

    Nic

    My non-expert answer to the refesh rates is that I find it draining to watch material with any sort of frame rate convertion going on. You lose tha ability for your eye to track objects on the screen as though they are real and you get reminded that it's film.

    It is like most other artefacts it is only annoying once it has been pointed out.

    John
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Nic,

    When I viewed 60 v 72 at Neils with a Rock I liked the smooth pans it provided. Only when we put on known problem discs was I concerned. We never played those on 60Hz though. Just compared PC to Rock. Rock was better by a fair margin but the severe stutter when it fell down really knocked you back in to reality. 60Hz may have been even worse or just more consitent...I need to do that dem again.

    I am going to try 50Hz v 75Hz on the NEC9 tomorrow if I have the chance. It'll probably have to be at 800 x 600 resoulution. I may also try 60Hz v 90Hz. Who knows what difference, if any, it'll make. The Vig will go to higher so I'll see just what is possible.

    Gordon
     
  13. Jenz

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    What do the experts (Gordon, Roland, Richad A etc) think about 72 / 75 hz. Does this add to the picture or not.

    Yes. It provides smooth PANS for NTSC and PAL Film material respectively. View it before and after and you probably wont go back.

    It may sound like a funny question but although the stutter free pans sound excellent I was less convinced in the demo than other things like colour / deinterlacing artifacts etc.

    Which is why you shouldnt base a decision on the Event. Talk about it more, see it even more read the Demo right up here:<br /><a href="http://www.bulletsnbabesdvds.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=17" target="_blank">http://www.bulletsnbabesdvds.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=17</a>

    Is 72 / 75 hz all it is cracked up to be? Or do you actually prefer 50 / 60 hz.

    Prefer 50/60hz for Video Based Material but for Film you cant beat 72 / 75.

    As for Jeffs comments, You can just do 1280x720 on a 7inch but only at 60hz on the 708. I settled for 800x600@72hz/75hz for the most part on my previous 708MM. Damn fine picture too.

    Regards Jenz.<br />P.s. My Rock doesn't stutter now <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
     
  14. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    I knew there was another reason.

    Barco Data 708 will go to 69Khz x 210Hz<br />Which as you say puts any 7" out of the frame just driving the technology too hard. Back to an 808.

    In theory the Horizontal resolution has very little to do with what you can see on screen because it is a scanning line. So setting this high may not be all its cracked up to be.

    I agree with all the above 50/60 for Vid 72/75 for film stuff it makes a difference to slow pans.

    What it does also take away is the percivied flicker that you see at the movies. Now is that Good or Bad?

    Richard A is in Amsterdam at the moment probably in a bar <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

    800x600 @ 72/75 for Kryton!

    Porche towing a caravan

    Come on Jeff an 808's not so bad after you've hit your head on it a few times.
     
  15. Jeff

    Jeff
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  16. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Oops didn't see you there Roland.

    Jeff
     
  17. Jeff

    Jeff
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    808?, don't I need planning permission for one of those or is it just building regs? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> What is the difference between the 808, 1208 and the Cine8

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
  18. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    The fact is it won't work that fast.

    Just to be pedantic. <br />Band width is the ability for a piece of equipment / wire to pass the information faithfully.

    The crux of the above problem is that the poor old 708/Cine7 does not have the scan rate to write the lines fast enough at 1280x720 @72or75Kz.

    If you are set on a 708/cine 7 you must get the Horizontal scan rate below 69Khz. Changing resolution will normally affect both H & V timings but as you are locking the Vertical at 75Hz max.It will only change the Horizontal.

    But I would still not be happy about diving any device at its maximum all the time.
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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  20. Jeff

    Jeff
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    OK I have found some specs for the 8" barcos, if I were to get one, I would it least want a BarcoGraphics 808s rather than the BarcoData 808s. From an electronics point of view the Data version seems to be similar to a BD708. The BG808s electronics are designed to go to 1600x1200 (even if the tubes aren't). Also am I correct in saying that the 808 is a quiet projector compared to the 708/Cine7, I can't find a noise spec but it is liquid cooled like the Cine8 (rated 32db).

    <a href="http://www.cinenow.com/uk/liste.php3?mk=48&type=pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cinenow.com/uk/liste.php3?mk=48&type=pdf</a>

    Jeff
     
  21. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Jeff

    I found the following two links useful if you haven't found them yet

    <a href="http://www.inlineinc.com/cgi-local/projref.cgi" target="_blank">www.inlineinc.com/cgi-local/projref.cgi</a>

    <a href="http://www.spatz-tech.de/projekto2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.spatz-tech.de/projekto2.htm</a>

    There are even specs, manual etc to download and sizes of some projectors.
     
  22. squid

    squid
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    my pj can do 1280x1024 @ 75hz . it looks a little soft though so i don't tend to run it that high .

    i tend to run it at 1152x864@72hz this seems to be about it's sweet spot and looks great on a 4:3 screen

    mine is only a 7incher
     
  23. GarryF

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    I got a NEC9PG from Gordon last year, would be able to handle all your requirements, 1280x720 at 72/75 seems close to its sweet spot as far as I can see.

    As for size not sure how it compares to a 808, have a rake around at <a href="http://www.nectech.com," target="_blank">www.nectech.com,</a> you should find specs there, or even better Gordon can tell us :)
     
  24. Nic Rhodes

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  25. Roland @ B4

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