Ken Kreisel Professional Sound Subwoofers thread

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sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
Looks like Kens new subs are breaking cover:

http://www.audionet.com.tw/doc/view/sn/5272

( mods i hope its ok to post the links)

A kk mx 5000 mk3 and a Kk mx 700 mk3 i think.

The mx5000 or the Goliath as it was known was the m&k flagship sub upto around 2005. Once Ken could no longer source the Sanyo drivers for the Goliath, he created a new flagship after that was the mx5100.

Im not sure where the mx5000mk3 sits in the new range, but its all good stuff as the father/creater of the first subwoofer returns to the arena!
 
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Ian J

Banned
Some interesting comments on that site, especially this one :D

曾日昌這些所謂的前輩們,還是都專注在所謂的專業上,欠缺的就是現代市場上所需要的"美型",就像dts公司御用的procella audio一樣,到最後都只能用在專業音響室裡,把打音箱崁入牆內.既然都有這麼好的技術,為什麼不把外觀設計的美一些呢?

its all good stuff as the father/creater of the first subwoofer returns to the arena!

Let's not get carried away as whilst it's good to see Kreisel back doing what he knows best he is probably the Henry Ford of the subwoofer world having done more than most to bring deep bass to the masses but as with motor cars there are many newer entrants who offer far better products than the "father"
 

sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
Some interesting comments on that site, especially this one :D

曾日昌這些所謂的前輩們,還是都專注在所謂的專業上,欠缺的就是現代市場上所需要的"美型",就像dts公司御用的procella audio一樣,到最後都只能用在專業音響室裡,把打音箱崁入牆內.既然都有這麼好的技術,為什麼不把外觀設計的美一些呢?



Let's not get carried away as whilst it's good to see Kreisel back doing what he knows best he is probably the Henry Ford of the subwoofer world having done more than most to bring deep bass to the masses but as with motor cars there are many newer entrants who offer far better products than the "father"

Hi Ian:hiya: i suppose i did get a bit carried away with the father of subwoofers statement-guilty m'lud of sexing the thread up:D

Theres a hell of a lot of competition now and you're right the game has moved on a bit. Makes you wonder as well that a lot of the promotion and early info along with pics has been released in the far east first....
 
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sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
I meant i thought he may announce the new arrivals at a conference or tech show, instead the website has been briefly updated and it appears review samples have been sent out to publications/reviewers in the far east.
 
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Member 639844

Former Advertiser
Well they love the legend of MK more than anywhere else in the far east, and as most of the components seem to be being manufactured over there, maybe it makes more financial sense to release there, then progress form that. He may also be trying to protect his brand for all we know, and maybe he still needs time to secure certain rights in the west that might have been easier to obtain in the east, who knows, but that what I would make of that.

Interesting to see he stuck to his word and retained the push pull mechanic. I do wander why though, as less than 10% distortion in the sub frequency zone is supposed to be inaudible, and harmonic distortion further up the range should be tiny and also inaudible in modern drivers. It does look like he has updated his original designs, but other than that not done anything too drastic, perhaps he has just incorporated some modern tech into the old driver designs to make them cleaner at depth.

I am sure these new subs will sound lovely, but as the old ones did anyway, then that isnt my concern, I am most interested to see what improvements he has made in terms of getting the subs to go deeper and more cleanly, the old MKs, as good as they were and as much as I loved their sound, just dont compare to the modern subs I have enjoyed in the LFE department.

I do also wander what price this new compact dual 12 sealed sub will command, anyone offering guesses?
 
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sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
Hi Dan, i think $3,000 has been mentioned. if the uk price is around £3,000, then that sits around near the same price as the mx5100 which was around £3,400.

Now the sub 1 is 5k, and the velo dd15+ and sub25 at the 4.5k mark, i think this will compete more around the dd12+ mark.

its a different story in the states mind, you have your seatons, fathoms and other diy heritage type subs at that price point.
 

Member 639844

Former Advertiser
Well looking at the pictures, the driver tech doesnt seem to have changed a lot. The roll surround looks bigger but it looks like the single stack ferrite magnet has remained, which would suggest xmax isnt huge (like it is with the other subs you mention), maybe 15mm or so with an xmech anywhere from 30-50mm at a guess. This would mean air shifting ability has certain limits. The price may well be reflective of the low end ability, as I would expect the Fathom (still quite expensive, but includes onboard eq :clap:) to match it and the 15 inch big boys to exceed it. I dont note however the pole vent in the bottom of the motor seems to have gone, which is interesting.

Lower xmax isnt a massive issue, but that clean upper end will have more distortion when the sub is trying to go deeper and having to move more. The push pull mechanic is no doubt part of what should help combat that, but it suggests to me that while it may improve over the original designs, it may still not quite hold its own at reproducing serious LFE when compared to the other big players.

There is also the eq matter. A lot of the big player now include this with their subs. People spending big on high end subs usually have high end setups all round, and a lot of high end processors dont include and subwoofer eq. Thats why I think we are seeing more high end subs include this feature. I cant see anything anywhere to suggest Ken is looking at eq at all. That in itself is no big deal, but it might also suggest the intended market a bit.

Ken has always gone for sound quality first coupled with good performance, and I think this new sub will simply carry on from that. I dont think he is going to try incorporate some of the new stuff that is being explored by more and more of the bigger main stream companies. If thats the case I think in a way it will be a bit of a shame. For music only systems, I would be looking at these subs first no doubt, but for movies, I am not so sure with what else is out there. A seaton with something like the new DualCore Antimode would likely be my first choice, assuming of course size wasnt an issue.
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
While your points may well be correct Dan, not all of us are searching for the holy grail of subs - not everyone is looking for sub 5Hz performance. Personally, I'm happy with reaching 20Hz - I'm more concerned with punch rather than rumble. The main thing I want though, and very few subs seem to do this - I want the bass to sound like its covering a wide range (say, 20Hz to 100Hz), rather than just sounding like a car sub, or sounding like it's only reproducing a very small bandwidth, which is utterly unconvincing. My current VX860 does this, and whatever replaces it will have to too. I'll be trying the force cancelling KEF R400b as soon as I can, and eventually the B&W DB1. If these don't do the trick, I may have to revert back to a KK offering :)
 

Member 639844

Former Advertiser
My point was only thats its price point will probably reflect its performance in the commercial world. The 4-5k subs will likely be similar in sound, but the extra money probably gets them a touch deeper, or as deep but a little more cleanly.

Anyway, wait till your brother finally builds his then see what you think, you never know, you might end up liking the depth and punch together at the same time. BTW, I am a little disappointed you seem to think that the extra depth is only good for adding more rumble, that surprises me.
 
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R

recruit

Guest
Some good news Asif and looks like Ken is finally getting somewhere now, I look forward to the up coming products especially being one of his biggest fan and owner of his original products :smashin:

I might even be able to squeeze another sub or speakers in somewhere :rolleyes:
 

sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
Some good news Asif and looks like Ken is finally getting somewhere now, I look forward to the up coming products especially being one of his biggest fan and owner of his original products :smashin:

I might even be able to squeeze another sub or speakers in somewhere :rolleyes:

Hi John, hope you're well mate :thumbsup: Yep, its good to finally see some pics of Kens new kit. The driver is now on the side so i guess the sub could sit nicely next to a wall. On his website, he mentions 3d hd sound...im guessing that this is more of a sales thing as we dont really have 3d encrypted soundtracks, but it could well be in relation to woofer orientation-just as the tripoles are enveloping, he maybe taking that concept further.

Room for more subs and a speakers? i thought you were quietening things down for the little one? unless she has the bug to-in which case i think you should get to of the 5000 mk3-1 each!:eek:

congrats on the pj to, mines an older jvc but they dont half throw out a decent pic-have fun:smashin:
 
R

recruit

Guest
Hi John, hope you're well mate :thumbsup: Yep, its good to finally see some pics of Kens new kit. The driver is now on the side so i guess the sub could sit nicely next to a wall. On his website, he mentions 3d hd sound...im guessing that this is more of a sales thing as we dont really have 3d encrypted soundtracks, but it could well be in relation to woofer orientation-just as the tripoles are enveloping, he maybe taking that concept further.

Room for more subs and a speakers? i thought you were quietening things down for the little one? unless she has the bug to-in which case i think you should get to of the 5000 mk3-1 each!:eek:

congrats on the pj to, mines an older jvc but they dont half throw out a decent pic-have fun:smashin:

Hi Asif, I will always be interested in what Mr Kriesel comes up with and certainly something to consider as I have always loved his kit in the past for sure :)

Yep, the JVC is great and 3D on the big screen has certainly got me hooked, I was watching an Imax production of the Hubble telescope last night and the last shuttle mission back in 2009 and it looked stunning in 3D and the JVC black levels are amazing :smashin:
 

Member 639844

Former Advertiser
Hi John, hope you're well mate :thumbsup: Yep, its good to finally see some pics of Kens new kit. The driver is now on the side so i guess the sub could sit nicely next to a wall. On his website, he mentions 3d hd sound...im guessing that this is more of a sales thing as we dont really have 3d encrypted soundtracks, but it could well be in relation to woofer orientation-just as the tripoles are enveloping, he maybe taking that concept further.
Are we forgetting that sub bass is non directional, and that property is the only reason the subwoofer was invented, or rather able to be invented, in the first place.

I wondered whether it was to do with that THX array thing that was announced earlier this year/last year...but I suppose that'd seem a little ambitious for a new company.

Maybe it's a Soundbar :)
That would make more sense, and the steerable line array would be interesting to hear for sure. I am not so sure it would be too much for ken either, as we know, he has good links with THX etc, and it would be a surprise to me if he didnt use them to help him in any and every way possible.

I cant see how subwoofers would be part of that system in any way different to how they are in a normal system, but if THX decides to use Ken new subs with its steerable line arrays then that would be interesting. Given Kens subs have always worked very well with sats because of the lovely punchy sound and very clean upper bass, I think they would the perfect choice for the line array as it uses very small and likely very bass deficient drivers. I can see how such drivers would lend themselves to the steerable concept though, and if I was pushed to make a guess, I reckon using 4 of these new subs running upto maybe 200hz with the SLA might return some very interesting and favourable results.
 

sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
Are we forgetting that sub bass is non directional, and that property is the only reason the subwoofer was invented, or rather able to be invented, in the first.

not forgetting mate, was referring to his new speakers:)
 

sammy the squid

Distinguished Member
My bad, it just seemed like you were talking of the subs in the quote I replied to, well to me anyway, doh :suicide:

"but it could well be in relation to woofer orientation-just as the tripoles are enveloping, he maybe taking that concept further"

i was referring to the tripoles and guessing the kind of array the new speakers may utilise to encapsulate the '3d hd sound'. i think in his timeline in the website, he suggests this will be the ultimate sound for gamers also..

Having just looked at the timeline-Ken states that when the audio for call of duty:modern warfare 3 was mixed , this was done utilising kens monitors..not the 2510s and kens new subs :)
 
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Member 116841

Distinguished Member
I suppose you could incorporate the rear and front height speakers into the front L/R and rear L/R by mounting them on top of the cabinet firing upwards, making a 5.1 speaker system a 9.1? I think that'd fill the 'space' better than forward firing monopoles.
 

Member 639844

Former Advertiser
"but it could well be in relation to woofer orientation-just as the tripoles are enveloping, he maybe taking that concept further"

i was referring to the tripoles and guessing the kind of array the new speakers may utilise to encapsulate the '3d hd sound'. i think in his timeline in the website, he suggests this will be the ultimate sound for gamers also..

Having just looked at the timeline-Ken states that when the audio for call of duty:modern warfare 3 was mixed , this was done utilising kens monitors..not the 2510s and kens new subs :)
The higher the frequency the more directional sound is, woofers normally fire forward while tweeters normally fire up or to the sides, although we do at times see small 'woofer' also firing sideways. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with in the speaker department though. The steerable line array is totally different tech though, although I dont think Ken has anything to do with that.

I suppose you could incorporate the rear and front height speakers into the front L/R and rear L/R by mounting them on top of the cabinet firing upwards, making a 5.1 speaker system a 9.1? I think that'd fill the 'space' better than forward firing monopoles.
Thats an interesting idea, but what effect do you think those extra compartments would have on the normal speaker. Do you not think keeping height channels separate from the mains is the best solution? Would not using bi/di-poles be better for height channels?
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
Thats an interesting idea, but what effect do you think those extra compartments would have on the normal speaker.
If they're designed properly, and the cabinet is sufficiently braced, no issue at all.

Do you not think keeping height channels separate from the mains is the best solution?
Probably, but how about those that don't have the space for those extra speakers? How about those that don't want to clutter up their room (maybe it's a smallish room) with tons of speakers? You could have a 9 channel system with only five speakers - even if it doesn't quite perform 100% like a seven speaker system, I'm sure that it would be sufficiently close.
 

Member 639844

Former Advertiser
Thats actually a pretty nice idea, I like it. Only thing that might put me off is it not unlikely the theory behind Bose direct reflecting technology, and anything that would seem to agree with Bose ideas would have to fight off the Bose reputation in these circles :laugh:
 

Smurfin

Distinguished Member
Am I the only one feeling a bit underwhelmed by this? All this talk from (a year, 2 years ago?) and it appears as if not alot has moved on :confused: (would add that things don't necessarily need to move on if they're that good in the first place, but I was under the impression he was going to do something different).
 

Smurfin

Distinguished Member
Personally, I'm happy with reaching 20Hz - I'm more concerned with punch rather than rumble.

Completely agree with this, and I think the forum has moved on from the big ported "SVS is king" days, where outright extension really was the holy grail. After comparing my DD15 with Angeleyes and Russell's DIY subs, my Velodyne was left wanting in the punch stakes (particularly against Angeleyes sub, although it didn't go deep enough for my taste). Punch and ultimate depth are two very difficult things to get right in one unit though, based on what I've heard over the years...
 
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