Kef tdm 45B dead again what options on new sub ?

[grahamricho]

My Kef THX TDM 45B sub died again, im sending it back to kef who were very helpfull, If it can not be fixed what are the best similar THX or not subs on the market, keep hearing about the Monolith sub are they comparable to a Kef TDM 45B ?
I used to have a REL strata years ago which i liked , but i have a bigger room and the Kef front end of THX speakers so dont no how that would sound if i heard it today ? many thanks

 

[SBanga]

More than comparable. I used to own a Paradigm Servo 15 and personally the Monolith outperforms the Servo by a noticeable margin. The Kef is in no man's land. Go for the BK

 

[Helicon]

To state that the Kef is "in no man's land" is ludicrous. Have you even heard one?! You'd have to look at about £1k to replace it with something worthy.

A £400 ported sub isn't going to kick the ass of an £800 sealed sub. Something has to suffer.

I can't believe the BK Direct site has an AVForums mug sitting on top of a sub in it's pics.....mutual plugging or what! Could've used any mug........

 

[Nimby]

To state that the Kef is "in no man's land" is ludicrous. Have you even heard one?! You'd have to look at about £1k to replace it with something worthy.

A £400 ported sub isn't going to kick the ass of an £800 sealed sub. Something has to suffer.

I can't believe the BK Direct site has an AVForums mug sitting on top of a sub in it's pics.....mutual plugging or what! Could've used any mug........

Having a bad day Helicon?

You know very well that market values are skewed by the two company's different methods of marketing.

BK sells online without retailer markups.

While KEF needs a decent profit margin just to cover their repairs department.

Perhaps they should get BK to build their subwoofers?

Then KEF could have AVF mug shots too. Instead of just looking like mugs.

 

[HiFiRuss71]

A £400 ported sub isn't going to kick the ass of an £800 sealed sub. Something has to suffer.

Why not? Since when did price indicate an absolute performance?

Russell

 

[SBanga]

To state that the Kef is "in no man's land" is ludicrous. Have you even heard one?! You'd have to look at about £1k to replace it with something worthy.

A £400 ported sub isn't going to kick the ass of an £800 sealed sub. Something has to suffer.

I can't believe the BK Direct site has an AVForums mug sitting on top of a sub in it's pics.....mutual plugging or what! Could've used any mug........

No, I haven't personally heard the Kef but I have been told from a few reliable sources that my old Paradigm completely outperformed it. Going from that, and hearing a Monolith sound better than the Servo 15 in my room, I'd say my statement is quite correct

 

[Helicon]

Having a bad day Helicon?

Far from it.....maybe it was read wrongly....

You know very well that market values are skewed by the two company's different methods of marketing.

A manufacturer can either sell the product for what it's worth compared to the market leaders, or it can sell the product for the margin it needs to survive. Either way, they're not going to put something on the market that's substandard for it's cost or something that can't compete with the competition. Granted, the 45b may seem a little slow compared to more recent offerings from say M&K, but you're still looking at a VX-850 as an equivalent in most areas, which is £800.

BK sells online without retailer markups.

Just because they only sell online, it doesn't mean they only make the same margin as a retailer or a manufacturer. Because they sell online, they can make more money on a single product than most manufacturers.

While KEF needs a decent profit margin just to cover their repairs department.

As do most manufacturers nowadays. Kef seem to have the KHT amp thing sorted now as i've not seen any returns for almost a year now.

Why not? Since when did price indicate an absolute performance?Russell

With the exception of the PV1, i've not heard many subs be beaten by something half their cost. Not the decent ones anyway.

No, I haven't personally heard the Kef but I have been told from a few reliable sources that my old Paradigm completely outperformed it. Going from that, and hearing a Monolith sound better than the Servo 15 in my room, I'd say my statement is quite correct

Guesswork then. Unless someone has lived with two products, they can't really say for certain. They have heard two products back to back in a demonstration and based a snap decision on that situation in foreign surroundings. Hearing something in a store dem room for 20 minutes is quite different from living with something for years. I'm not saying that's the case in this instance, but i'm 'guessing' many recommendations on these forums are under similar circumstances.

 

[SBanga]

Guesswork then. Unless someone has lived with two products, they can't really say for certain. They have heard two products back to back in a demonstration and based a snap decision on that situation in foreign surroundings. Hearing something in a store dem room for 20 minutes is quite different from living with something for years. I'm not saying that's the case in this instance, but i'm 'guessing' many recommendations on these forums are under similar circumstances.

Are you saying we shouldn't have shop demos? In all seriousness, while what you're saying is quite true, even a short demo with a familiar movie or music in the same room, is usually enough to tell which you prefer. It's also true that these forums are about opinions, not fact; every piece of equipment has their admirers and detracters I guess.
Now, I know I gave somebody elses opinions about the Kef, but knowing the equipment they have owned and the fact that they've heard and liked my Monolith (both more than my old Servo 15), I still stick with my point. In fact I'd bet money on it
Also reading that even Kef claimed a frequency cut off point of 35Hz, it doesn't exactly bode well for a beast of a sub.

 

[Dynaudio Desire]

Helicon have you heard a Monolith?

 

[Jules]

I had 2 x KEF 45B subs with my kef THX speaker package.
They were sold about 2 years ago and replaced with a single SVS cylinder.
Best move I ever made!

At £800 the 45B was poor value for money and really can't compete with decent subs from other manufacturers that sell for considerably less.

My SVS cost me less than £800, and on its own it trounces the pair of 45B's (£1600's worth).

The KEF THX speakers (TDM23F's, TDM23C, TDM34DS) are still in my pocession and are the best speakers I've ever owned by absolute mile.
Sadly the 45B sub was always asking to be replaced.

The 45B has poor build quality, (the cabinets have a tendancy to 'fart' if they are driven to reasonable volumes), they are slow and don't go very low.

 

[recruit]

chaps can this please be kept amicable

 

[grahamricho]

Still on the look out for a replacement sub, was looking at a local hi fi shop and he had a second hand Rel Storm, I had a Strata years ago and wondered how it would compare with a Kef TDM 45 B..thanks

 

[recruit]

merged you're threads graham, or else you will have multiple thread revolveing around the same subjects.

 

[Jules]

I had REL Storm (Mk I) once.

I very nice sub (fast, quite deep and articulate), but only 100Watts. I think its better than the 45B at moderate volumes, but it runs out of steam if you really crank up the volume.

 

[grahamricho]

Why do you need big amps to drive subs ? The strata was only 60 watt, but a lot smaller driver, same with storm small driver only 100 watts, but the kef had 15 inch driver but big amp ? is it size of driver, but the Rels are ported ?
which is best small amp small driver but ported or big amp , big driver but sealed ?

 

[Jules]

I don't believe there's any 'best type' of design. Just good and bad examples of each.
I also think the size of the driver is only part of the equation. The size of the magnet, cone material, cabinet volume, ports etc... all play a part.

I just experienced the Storm run out steam on occasions. the KEf has plenty of power, but the chipboard cabinet can't handle it!

 

[Helicon]

Also reading that even Kef claimed a frequency cut off point of 35Hz, it doesn't exactly bode well for a beast of a sub.

Am i remembering correctly that THX subs have to reach 20Hz? The 45b was the first real sub i owned, and i never had any problems with it at all. It played low, to the point of helping out my Kef 4.2's at the time, and never struggled. Given that this sub was designed about 15 years ago during the Dolby Surround days, it's not quite as bad as people seem to remember.

I'm not one to purely go by specs. I'm a follower of the saying "if it looks right, it is right", and i think that can be used for audio by changing it to "if it sounds right, it is right". Just listen to a Rega system to understand what i mean.

Helicon have you heard a Monolith?

Only at the Bristol show. But after 18 years in this industry i'm aware of what manufacturers can achieve for given price points. Occassionally the bar is pushed a little, but never so far from everyone elses reach that it's out of focus. For £400, there's only so much R&D and materials you can afford, and there's two ways to make a sub at that price. Small, tight, agile, but lacking in ultimate power and extension, or build bigger using cheaper parts, but has drawbacks on the control and quality front. I'm not saying the monolith isn't any good, just that it's built to a budget. If you build to a budget, compromises have to be made somewhere. I'm sure you can appreciate what i'm saying if you compare a pair of Dynaudio 42's to a pair of Mission 7351's.

Why do you need big amps to drive subs ? The strata was only 60 watt, but a lot smaller driver, same with storm small driver only 100 watts, but the kef had 15 inch driver but big amp ? is it size of driver, but the Rels are ported ? which is best small amp small driver but ported or big amp , big driver but sealed ?

There are no rules. Sub bass is all about shifting air, for which you need a large bass driver. To keep that hefty thing responsive and under control, you need a powerful and amplifier. All this needs a sturdy cabinet and a lot of R&D to work well together. I personally feel sealed cabinets sound tighter and have less drawbacks, but that usually upsets owners subs of the ported persuasion......

 

[Paul Smith]

Also reading that even Kef claimed a frequency cut off point of 35Hz, it doesn't exactly bode well for a beast of a sub.

The 35hz refers to the roll off specified by THX at the time, so as to provide flat response when combined with average room gain.

I found that most active THX subs also have the ability to disable the THX rolloff, allowing the sub to dig deeper (certainly the Jamo, Boston Acoustics, Kef Reference and M&K subs that I've owned did).

Paul.