KEF experts. Help please.

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Ramius, Jan 18, 2002.

  1. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi

    I've fallen out with my speakers :( (Q35, Q95 Q15).
    It's really the centre thats causing my annoyance. I'm starting to find it boxy sounding with too much sibilance. To be honest I've never been totally happy with it.
    The centre is on a stand in front of the TV, amp is Denon 3801.
    My system is fully calibrated using Avia.

    My question is, would a model 100c improve this, and if so, would it match my Q35s & Q15s for timbre.

    Or maybe my problem is due to the room. I've tried a Q15 for the centre, but this still had too much sibilance.

    I'm toying with the idea of getting rid of the lot and maybe trying a different set-up, possibly B&W- LCR60 S3 & 601 S3s all round.

    However I'd prefer a cheap and easy solution. :)
    I'd be looking for a second hand KEF 100c.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  2. Electric Mayhem

    Electric Mayhem
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    The Model 100 is an excellent speaker and much better than the Q95. I had it before I changed to the THX package.

    It should also be a pretty good match for your other speakers, might not be perfect but near enough.

    General Skanky has got himself one, so hopefully he´ll post his comments!!
     
  3. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I have repeadily written about the Q95. It is not KEFs greatest product. The 100c is a star and may be what you are after (200c?), I recommend it for both the Q seies and Ref 1-2, 2-2. It may be 'old' nowdays but it still sounds sweet. Might also be worth investigating the new KEF ranges but I don't know anymore about them. The 100 might be available at a good price if you look around.
     
  4. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Thanks guys.

    I've found a couple of 100's for sale second hand.
    £200 from a dealer and £170 private.
    Sounds fair?

    I'm a bit concerned about still having the same sibilance problems after replacing my 95c. I hope I'm not being too critical in my listening (is that possible? :))

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  5. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Your criticism of the Q95 seem to be the same as mine. I gues we are both critical. Also speak to General S.
     
  6. BadAss

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    Nic, what speakers do you have now? I use Models 2's. Do the THX range better these?
     
  7. Electric Mayhem

    Electric Mayhem
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    BadAss

    The Kef THX speakers are excellent for movies, but nowhere near as good as your Ref 2´s for music.

    I´ve found my THX´s to be about on par with my old RDM1´s.

    But I´m now more movie orientated than music.
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Jase sums it nicely for me. I was getting increasingly fed up with the limitation of my system on multi channel music, despite being brilliant on films.

    I currently use 4-2 Ref L and R, 200c, 2 pairs of THX dipoles and a pair of Q15 (I would like to swap these for another Ref model 1-2 would probably do but I never compromise!).

    The KEF THX range is stunning if it just for film, it you need to do films and music I prefer my hybrid approach.
     
  9. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Thanks again people.

    I've decided to go with a different plan.
    Instead of trying a quick and easy fix (which never happens :)) I'm hoping to go with a full and steady upgrade. Starting with centre, then the fronts and finally the surrounds.

    I'm looking at the kits from www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk and www.iplacoustics.co.uk for starters.

    Should be interesting. Plenty of research to do.

    Cheers,
    Boris
     
  10. philmate

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    Hi Ramius,

    You put onto Iplacoustics a while ago and i ended up buying the sub. As you know I also purchased his small transmission line as I like music aswell, very impressed. Now have bought his AVC2 centre, still running in, plus you can tinker with the inside bits and pieces. It has a top mounted tweeter but I am using the speaker upside down at the moment so the tweeter is more in line as it's a bit high on the TV . Sounds good. I know your a few hours away but if your interested you can visit sunny Southend if you like and have a good listen, I may buy his M2's for rears soonish.
     
  11. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi Philmate

    Thanks for the offer, I'll consider it.

    The kit that really caught my eye is the Gemini from Wilmslow

    I'd really like to have the exact same speaker for LCR duties and this fits the bill.

    Anyway, there is no rush (I keep telling myself).
    I'm off to have a good read of the LDSG again.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  12. Couch Potato

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    Ramius,

    I've just fried the tweeter of my 95C and like you have been looking for a change, can you let me know where the 2nd hand 100C's were if you're not taking either of them up, either PM or email. I'm upgrading big time later in the year but need a quick fix and the 100C looks like that's the one!!

    Thanks
    Steve
     
  13. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi

    Your emails not listed. :confused:


    One here and one here



    And there was this one at Audio Excellence in Cardiff. The Grill was slightly damaged.

    Manager
    Andy Wardlaw
    134-6 Crwys Road
    Cardiff
    CF24 4NR
    Tel (029) 20228565
    Fax (029) 20398201
    Tuesday - Saturday 10am - 6pm
    Thursday evening open until 8pm

    Good luck

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  14. Couch Potato

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    Thanks Ramius, I'll check them out.

    Steve
     
  15. General Skanky

    General Skanky
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    Sorry I missed all this thread Ramius.
    I use the 100 now with Q35.2 and it's very good indeed. Especially as it came new for £250.

    But now you're off to IPL, I can't compare the two, totally different speakers. IPL looks incredible value for money, and I know you can knock some good 'biscuit tins' when you put your mind to it.
    :D :D :D
     
  16. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Cheers General.

    Yeah, I've just about decided what I'm going for. It'll be interesting to see (hear?) how well the IPL kits compares to my KEF set up.

    Thanks
    Boris
     
  17. ilkand

    ilkand
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    I have the following system:

    kef c100
    kef q60
    kef 70s
    kef 65ds
    tannoy msub10
    sony db925

    I do not like the sound of my system as it is. There is not that much detail and the front speakers do not quite match. I was thinking of getting some RDM1s instead of the q60s, but have heard that they are bass light, or a 200c, or perhaps some q35s. Any suggestions for my system?

    Thanks
    Andy
     
  18. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Boris/Andy

    I have an all KEF system (Ref 4 L/R, 100C, Q15 sides and rears), in my case the Ref 4's obviously showed up the limitations of the other speakers. I spent quite a bit of time at Wilmslow Audio listening to a wide selection of their speakers and found that indeed I could get the Kef sound with slightly better treble but wasn't prepared to sacrifice the wide sound field produced using the Uni-Q concept. My solution was to replace the Q15 drivers with the drivers used in the Ref 4 (only the tweeter in the 100 could be replaced due to size limitations) and also change some of the components in the crossover to tame some of the 'tizz' in the treble (the crossover's use electrolytic capacitors which are the source of the 'tizz'). I tried a wide range of capacitor types before I found the sound I like (Boris you may find Audyn and MCap polypropylene more to your liking) give it a try, you won't be disappointed).
     
  19. ilkand

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    Gary,
    when you replaced the Q15 drivers with the drivers used in the Ref 4, where did you get the new drivers from? Are they a good fit etc?
    Was it easy to change the capacitors? Sounds complicated.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  20. GaryG

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    Andy

    I bought the replacement drivers from Kef they will fit directly into the Q15 just need to cut off the spade connectors on the wires from the crossover and solder to the new driver.

    Changing the capacitors are a little more tricky. I originally chucked the original crossover and built a new one from scratch using super duper inductors and capacitors but didn't like the sound. Don't want to get into too much technical detail but the lowered DC resistance of the inductors changed the 'Q' of the speaker which meant the port tuning was no longer correct. The unique shape of the port prevented any experimentation here and I didn't feel the improvement warranted the effort. I was pleased with the sound coming from the bass unit with the original crossover so I went back to the original crossover and concentrated on the components feeding the tweeter. The critical component is a series electrolytic capacitor, (8.2uf from memory) which I replaced with a wide range of capacitor types. The polypropylene types gave a very smooth, detailed sound, which coupled with my kit was just a little too laid back so I went back to using electrolytics but using very high quality Black Gates which brought back most of the bite without the edginess. BTW, the components are soldered onto a PCB attached directly to the back of the binding posts and all the components are fixed to the PCB with resin to stop microphony, so if you are not confident working in this environment get the job done by somebody who is.
     
  21. ilkand

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    Gary,
    thanks for that. Very interesting. Can the drivers be bought with crossovers as well? You just used the q15 crossovers and then adapted them, right? How much do such drivers cost anyway? And are Kef willing to supply them or do you have to put up a fight?

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  22. BadAss

    BadAss
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    Gary G, as you know so much about these speakers i have the Ref 2's and want to upgrade them to Ref 2.2. Is it possible? If it is how much and is it worth it?
     
  23. GaryG

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    Andy

    Changing the driver alone is the biggest improvement, modifying the crossover is icing on the cake, it's not a requirement and is not something that you would buy off the shelf. Have a chat with your local Kef dealer and see if they would be prepared to do the job for you. Better still take a look at the RDM Two, the job's already been done for you.

    BadAss

    There are a number of variables at play here, the volume of the cabinet, the drivers and the type and quality of the crossover. When I listened to the .2 range I thought it was an improvement over the original but not enough to justify upgrading. In your case, looking at your equipment list I would suggest you look at upgrading to the Ref 4's it is a much more worthwhile improvement and can be had at very reasonable prices now that they have been superceded. You're not that far away from me if you want to come down with your kit and have a listen to my Ref 4's.
     
  24. BadAss

    BadAss
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    Would lover too, but to bring my equipment with me may be a little impracticle. How about you come to mine with your Ref 4's then we can compare the two?;)
     
  25. GaryG

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    eeerrrrr.... I'm just booking the van now!:eek:

    On the other hand I've got some fairly decent partnering equipment, should be sufficient for you hear the benefits of the Ref 4.;)
     
  26. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Cheers Gary, interesting stuff.

    I'm in the middle of constructing my new centre. It's the AVC2 from IPL.
    Crossovers use polypropylene capacitors.
    Details from the IPL site-

    "....Crossover kits with superior IPL polypropylene capacitors, low loss inductors, and high power resistors...."

    I'm looking forward to listening to the results. Should be up and running by the weekend.
    Can't wait to get rid of the tizz and fizz :) sssssso long ssssssibilanccccce.

    Then I'll have another four cabinets to build. :D

    Thanks
    Boris
     
  27. GaryG

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    Boris

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Knowing how you like to build your own stuff how about this for a curved ball

    www.adireaudio.com/cd/he10_1.htm

    or for a full kit

    www.diycable.com/speaker_kits.htm


    Disclaimer:
    Although I'm the UK dealer for Adire this is in no way soliciting for the above product, I've absolutely no idea how good or bad they are as I've not tried them (yet!) I'm just highlighting another kit manufacturer, in this case with the advantage of using coincident drivers with their much wider sound field.
     
  28. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi Gary

    I never considered the Adire kits as I didn't want to import anything this time and I associated you with the Shiva and Tempest Too late now I've gone with IPL. :)

    The 10.1s are getting rave reviews.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  29. GaryG

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    Boris

    Thanks for the link, I particularly liked the pictures, especially the Tempest sub, wish I was that good at woodwork!
     

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