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Which option would you prefer?

  • Leave with no deal

    Votes: 122 74.4%
  • Leave with the WA without the backstop

    Votes: 42 25.6%

  • Total voters
    164
  • Poll closed .
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But all were for a close relationship with the EU which absolutely puts no deal off the table. Even putting aside the Tory votes, the combined might of tthe remainder, there is a 50%+ number against no deal. That is why Brexiteers are scared stiff of another referendum.

I'm not scared, my objection is the first one had an instruction that has not yet been honoured.
Why should anyone abide by a 2nd one?

Jo Swinson has said many times, it doesn't matter how many there is, unless the answer is to remain, she will not accept it.
 
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That's what democracy is. Not sure why you think "alignment" is democratic when there is a split decision.

Because even those who oppose the democratic vote of preference align with democracy. It really is quite simple. When the Conservative party win a GE, Labour voters don't take to the streets, media, courts and parliament itself to overturn the result. They abide by the result. That's how democracy for centuries used to work in this country.
 
So now we know Bojo’s plan for sure, Andrea L confirms it. Nice way to test it with the media before actually doing it.
 
But all were for a close relationship with the EU which absolutely puts no deal off the table. Even putting aside the Tory votes, the combined might of tthe remainder, there is a 50%+ number against no deal.
"Close relationship" can be interpreted in a lot of ways.

Again you are saying specifically "no deal." I know what the manifestos said and the parties stances.

Hence why I said over 80% was "to leave." I never said over 80% was for "no deal."


That is why Brexiteers are scared stiff of another referendum.
1. Who?
2. What's the point? If people don't respect the first one, they won't respect a second. Some MPs have admitted they won't.
3. Why does it take two votes to leave?
4. The evidence is it will be leave again.
5. And what will it ask anyway?
 
And they can keep voting and change their minds over and over again.
I am not sure if you are aware of the results of previous national UK referendums as your reply doesn't seem to indicate this.

And your post indicates you don't believe in democracy full stop.

Not until you get the right answer you want.

Now, where have you learnt to take that en vogue disposition from, I wonder. Sham democrat.
 
And your post indicates you don't believe in democracy full stop.
Not until you get the right answer you want.
Now, where have you learnt to take that en vogue disposition from, I wonder. Sham democrat.

You must be living in a different country as you don't understand how parliamentary democracy works.
 
"Close relationship" can be interpreted in a lot of ways.

Again you are saying specifically "no deal." I know what the manifestos said and the parties stances.

Hence why I said over 80% was "to leave." I never said over 80% was for "no deal."



1. Who?
2. What's the point? If people don't respect the first one, they won't respect a second. Some MPs have admitted they won't.
3. Why does it take two votes to leave?
4. The evidence is it will be leave again.
5. And what will it ask anyway?

The same point as the first referendum and any subsequent ones. A large scale, national opinion poll. Unless there is strong change in opinion in one way or the other nothing will change.
 
But all were for a close relationship with the EU which absolutely puts no deal off the table. Even putting aside the Tory votes, the combined might of tthe remainder, there is a 50%+ number against no deal. That is why Brexiteers are scared stiff of another referendum.

Well apart from the Tory manifesto that also stated 'we believe no deal is better than a bad deal' it should also be noted what a "close relationship" means in the eyes of the EU.

Fundamentally, it means the EU wants to hold the keys to vast swathes of the UK's economy whereby it keeps the UK locked in to 'satellite status' and subordinating the UK to its external tariffs amongst a host of other things. And irrespective of whether they damage the UK's economy or not. The UK won't have a say in many of these areas and will only be consulted like Turkey currently is. The EU wants a "level playing field" to control any advantageous competition an independent sovereign nation can muster on its own accord. It will want to keep control of the UK's territorial waters only consulting the UK of any changes it decides to make in favour of its fully paid up members.

Close relationship is a euphemism for subordination and acquiescing to EU demands. The only thing close about it, is keeping the UK locked into its political and economic sphere of influence.

Just likes it's currently trying to do with Switzerland
 
And you must be living on a different planet as you don't understand parliament has no sovereignty higher than a popular mandate.
We have already established that there has been a General Election since the referendum result and therefore the latter is refined by the former. The GE put no deal off the table so the public should now be asked to endorse a deal or revocation. It is only how that question should be asked that is up for debate.

Close relationship is a euphemism for subordination and acquiescing to EU demands. The only thing close about it, is keeping the UK locked into its political and economic sphere of influence.
I don't agree with your interpretation - I would describe it as close alignment for mutual gain - but, ultimately, it is what the British people chose in 2017.
 
We have already established that there has been a General Election since the referendum result and therefore the latter is refined by the former. The GE put no deal off the table so the public should now be asked to endorse a deal or revocation. It is only how that question should be asked that is up for debate.

No it didn't take no deal off the table. That's a complete lie. No deal is/was and still is the legal default. And the Tory manifesto also stated 'we believe no deal is better than a bad deal'.
 


Britain will only be granted a Brexit extension by the EU if it agrees to hold a general election or a second referendum, it emerged on Wednesday night.


David Sassoli, the president of the European Parliament, set out the condition during a debate in Brussels.
 
No it didn't take no deal off the table. That's a complete lie. No deal is/was and still is the legal default. And the Tory manifesto also stated 'we believe no deal is better than a bad deal'.
The Tory manifesto first and foremost promised a deal. Checkout my link and you will see it throughout the document. But even then, the Tories only secured 42% of the vote so they lack a majority for no deal. It might be the enduring legal default but the people haven't agreed to it which is why Parliament, acting on their behalf, won't allow it.
 
In other news, the former Chancellor, Phillip Hammond, has come forward with an interesting proposal to break the deadlock - a withdrawal agreement that promises zero tariffs with the EU and equivalence (but not membership of) the customs union:
 


Britain will only be granted a Brexit extension by the EU if it agrees to hold a general election or a second referendum, it emerged on Wednesday night.


David Sassoli, the president of the European Parliament, set out the condition during a debate in Brussels.

Yep, we need to sort it out once and for all. I agree with the president - stop giving us extensions unless there's going to be a finality to all this.
 
The Tory manifesto first and foremost promised a deal. Checkout my link and you will see it throughout the document.
And the document also states no deal is better than a bad deal. Yep they want a deal, yep they also say that if a good deal can't be done then it is no deal. Checkout the link.
But even then, the Tories only secured 42% of the vote so they lack a majority for no deal. It might be the enduring legal default but the people haven't agreed to it which is why Parliament, acting on their behalf, won't allow it.
And even then, the Tories did win the GE. And the referendum was to leave. "Leave." We haven't.
 
And you must be living on a different planet as you don't understand parliament has no sovereignty higher than a popular mandate.

And that's where you are wrong.
 
Yep, we need to sort it out once and for all. I agree with the president - stop giving us extensions unless there's going to be a finality to all this.

Why does the EU even mention a 2nd ref? Election, I can understand, 2nd ref? Nah, the EU are famous for voting and re-voting until they get the answer they want.

Shame there are so many spineless individuals in positions of power and able to disgrace our Country on the international stage.
 
And the document also states no deal is better than a bad deal. Yep they want a deal, yep they also say that if a good deal can't be done then it is no deal. Checkout the link.
And even then, the Tories did win the GE. And the referendum was to leave. "Leave." We haven't.

I think it’s worth pointing out that The Torys failed to get a majority with this manifesto which is part of the reason we are where we are with regards to the deadlock in the HOC.
 
I think it’s worth pointing out that The Torys failed to get a majority with this manifesto which is part of the reason we are where we are with regards to the deadlock in the HOC.
Also worth pointing out there will probably be a GE soon. It looks like the next manifesto will be taking a harder line.

BBC News - Will 'Super Saturday' be a decisive Brexit moment?

"Essentially the dramatic language is designed not just to irritate their opponents, but also to make it clear to their negotiating opponents that any Brexit offer from the UK, if there is a Tory majority after the election, is likely to be a harder not softer one and the EU will face a government less willing to compromise, not more."
 
Democracy is in a perilous position now in the UK, whereby 45 years of EU membership has corrupted our political class. Our Parliamentarians like our judges have mimicked and evolved themselves to a convenient continental philosophy of a 'top down' approach. The historical philosophy on the continent ensures bureaucrats and commissioners know better than the hoi polloi and decision making is invested in them to make the right decision for the plebs - hence why Brits look across the Channel and see the EU as undemocratic. That has never been the case in British democracy where a 'bottom up' approach places servants into power; yet the remain faction have defied the democratic constitution and have turned their backs on centuries of history. Stifling and stymieing the democratic process in order to grind Brexit to a halt by telling us after three and a half years that we're all better "informed" now with their Owrellian Newspeak propaganda that is designed to soften the electorate up and make us change our minds.

We have seen previous referendums in the EU overturned by the overlords in Brussels, countries like Ireland, Denmark and France were made to vote again because they initially voted against something the technocrats were in favour of. Britain, and its democracy is now at risk of repeating this undemocratic folly because it's what our better-ers demand. By going down this route and on this principle alone the UK was right to vote leave.
And you must be living on a different planet as you don't understand parliament has no sovereignty higher than a popular mandate.
I agree whole heartedly with you, they do not understand what sovereignty is, politics, they really, really don't. Broad and narrow definitions to try twist the actual result to fit their warped allegiances to this autocratic organisation.

We don't and never have had top down dictates' from above. Top-down’ means that the initiatives don’t come from citizens, but from organisations. Some argue that this equals creating something that isn’t there: if there’s no demand, why supply it?
 
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